A question for OSASers

[brb3]

**

These verses speak to real, genuine believers, warning them NOT** to lose faith or they will be cut off from God:
Rom.*** 11:22-23***
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

This verse speaks to people who reject his Church, yet still believe they are doing his will:
Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
***Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ ***
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you Depart from me, you evildoers.’

These verses speak to the importance of persevering and the danger of falling away:
Matt. 24:10-13
Then they will hand you over to persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of my name. And then many will be led into sin; they will betray and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. ***
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. ***

In these verses – Paul admits that even he - who is perceived by others to be a shoe-in for salvation – CAN fall away.
1 Cor. 4:4
I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.

1 Cor. 9:27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Here the writer tells the believers to hold onto hope. Why HOPE for something that is guaranteed??
Heb. 3:6
We are his house, if only we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope.

In this verse – we are told to be extremely cautious and wary in regards to our salvation. This is a perfect illustration that we do not have a guarantee.
Phil. 2:12
“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”

Most of these speak of Perseverance. That is key to a basic understanding of OSAS.
OSAS defined as Rebirth + Perseverance. Protestants teach they have been saved, they are saved, and if they Persevere they WILL be Saved. So says John MacArthur … based on his understanding of Peter and John’s Gospel.

 

[NotWorthy]

Most of these speak of Perseverance. That is key to a basic understanding of OSAS.
OSAS defined as Rebirth + Perseverance. Protestants teach they have been saved, they are saved, and if they Persevere they WILL be Saved. So says John MacArthur … based on his understanding of Peter and John’s Gospel.

Two comments on this.

1. The underlined part actually sounds rather Catholic.
2. I don’t know of any OSAS’ers that add the “if clause”. What I hear is that, “if you don’t persevere, then you actually were never saved to begin with”.

I don’t think our good Master’s Servant added that “if clause” either. If he cares to rejoin us, he might clarify for me.

 

[elvisman]

Most of these speak of Perseverance. That is key to a basic understanding of OSAS.
OSAS defined as Rebirth + Perseverance. Protestants teach they have been saved, they are saved, and if they Persevere they WILL be Saved. So says John MacArthur … based on his understanding of Peter and John’s Gospel.

**So says John MacArthur? **
Why would anybody hang their hope in Jesus on the words of John MacArthur? The very same John MacArthur, who abandoned his hard-lined Calvinistic views to those of Arminianism last year, along with R.C. Sproul?

As for perseverance - this question has never been answered by any Calvinist I’ve spoken to - so here goes:
Why can’t they show me where, in the many verses I provided, that the believer is guaranteed that they will persevere?

The ONLY way we can persevere is to COOPERATE with God’s grace (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1)

 

[brb3]

**

John MacArthur, who abandoned** his hard-lined Calvinistic views to those of Arminianism last year, along with R.C. Sproul?

Is it wrong to change one’s mind on scripture ? A thinking man will admit his error, and alter his beliefs to better reflect teachings of scripture. Both John Mac & R.C. have received new grace and insight … following teaching of Paul //// 2 Timothy 2:15

 

[brb3]

The ONLY way we can persevere is to COOPERATE with God’s grace (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1)

True. This is John Mac’s constant theme. “Grace to You”

 

[elvisman]

Is it wrong to change one’s mind on scripture ? A thinking man will admit his error, and alter his beliefs to better reflect teachings of scripture. Both John Mac & R.C. have received new grace and insight … following teaching of Paul //// 2 Timothy 2:15

No - it is dangerous to follow the doctrines and precepts of men, instead of the Church established by Jesus.

And even more dangerous when they change their very theology.
The Catholic Church - Christ’s only established Church, which is the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15) has been teaching his truth for 2000 years without changing doctines revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, a thinking man will admit his error. But - when he exchanges one error for another - he remains wrong.

 

[elvisman]

True. This is John Mac’s constant theme. “Grace to You”

**Ummm, no it hasn’t been.

**I listen to him every morning and the point he drives home (at least when he was a hard-line Calvinist) is that NOTHING we do can help God’s grace work within us. ****We don’t have to cooperate because the Holy Spirit does it for us. **

This is utter nonsense and nullifies free will. God becomes a spiritual rapist, who forces his love on us - and that is heresy, my friend.**

If you are going to insist on identifying yourself as “Catholic” - you really need to do some homework. There seems to be a new contingent of so-called Catholics on this forum who espouse some very un-Catholic beliefs . . .

 

[brb3]

Yes, a thinking man will admit his error. But - when he exchanges one error for another - he remains wrong.

We change by degrees. It’s almost impossible for a Protestant to convert to Catholicism. When I was discovering the Catholic doctrines … I couldn’t buy the entire package. I had to take things one by one. John Mac is open to examining his beliefs on scripture, and look how many protestants are mad at him … calling him a turncoat !

Catholics say it takes a miracle for a Protestant to convert. For me, the keys were recognition that the Church was right on the Eucharist, Peter as Pope, and seeing the Church in early church history. Would we fault him, if he one day decides to exchange his Protestantism for Catholicism ?

 

[elvisman]

We change by degrees. It’s almost impossible for a Protestant to convert to Catholicism. When I was discovering the Catholic doctrines … I couldn’t buy the entire package. I had to take things one by one. John Mac is open to examining his beliefs on scripture, and look how many protestants are mad at him … calling him a turncoat !

Catholics say it takes a miracle for a Protestant to convert. For me, the keys were recognition that the Church was right on the Eucharist, Peter as Pope, and seeing the Church in early church history. Would we fault him, if he one day decides to exchange his Protestantism for Catholicism ?

**Look - I appreciate your charity - I really do. I think you are not very familiar with John MacArthur, at least in the way he views the Catholic Church. Maybe it’s because you are too nice or maybe it’s because you admired him for so long before your conversion. **

**Have you heard John MacArthur speak about the Catholic Church? I have and he is one of the most virulent anti-Catholics out there. He spews lie after lie about what we supposedly believe in and teaches. **

For example, on a tape I have, he actually said that nuns were recruited in the confessional by priests, who are psychologically trained to break down despondent and desperate women.

He also claims on this tape that the Vatican has the largest collection of pornography - films, magazines and books - in the entire world.

**A man who lies as much as MacArthur is not to be believed about anything.
Doesn’t Jesus warn us in Matt. 7:15-20 that we will know false teachers by their fruits? If his fruits are born of lies - outright lies - then they should be easy for any Christian to see.

I pray for John MacArthur and every other anti-Catholic out there who chooses the lie instead of the truth.

 

[NotWorthy]

Look - I appreciate your charity - I really do. I think you are not very familiar with John MacArthur, at least in the way he views the Catholic Church. Maybe it’s because you are too nice or maybe it’s because you admired him for so long before your conversion.

Have you heard John MacArthur speak about the Catholic Church? I have and he is one of the most virulent anti-Catholics out there. He spews lie after lie about what we supposedly believe in and teaches.

For example, on a tape I have, he actually said that nuns were recruited in the confessional by priests, who are psychologically trained to break down despondent and desperate women.

He also claims on this tape that the Vatican has the largest collection of pornography - films, magazines and books - in the entire world.

**A man who lies as much as MacArthur is *not ***to be believed about anything.
Doesn’t Jesus warn us in Matt. 7:15-20 that we will know false teachers by their fruits? If his fruits are born of lies - outright lies - then they should be easy for any Christian to see.

I pray for John MacArthur and every other anti-Catholic out there who chooses the lie instead of the truth.

At the risk of sounding ignorant, are all these tapes that spew venom at the Catholic Church old or recent? I have no clue what armineism is, but is it closer to the Catholic Church or further away than Calvinism.

 

[elvisman]

At the risk of sounding ignorant, are all these tapes that spew venom at the Catholic Church old or recent? I have no clue what armineism is, but is it closer to the Catholic Church or further away than Calvinism.

The particular tape I was referring to was made just a few years ago after the priest-sex scandal was in full force.

He begins his talk by stating that he is not jumping on the anti-Priest bandwagon and that he will be charitable but truthful. He then goes on to make the most ridiculous charges about the history of the Church, scathing lies about the clergy and quotes from heterodox "Catholic" authors to glean the rest of his garbage. He also adds in healthy doses of Lorraine Boettner, heresay and very skewed opinion and presents them as “facts”.

Not a man I would follow if I were a Protestant.

As for Arminianisn - you might say it’s a little (very little) closer to Catholicism in that, free will plays more of a roll in the receiving of grace.

 

[NotWorthy]

The particular tape I was referring to was made just a few years ago after the priest-sex scandal was in full force.

He begins his talk by stating that he is not jumping on the anti-Priest bandwagon and that he will be charitable but truthful. He then goes on to make the most ridiculous charges about the history of the Church, scathing lies about the clergy and quotes from heterodox "Catholic" authors to glean the rest of his garbage. He also adds in healthy doses of Lorraine Boettner, heresay and very skewed opinion and presents them as “facts”.

Not a man I would follow if I were a Protestant.

As for Arminianisn - you might say it’s a little (very little) closer to Catholicism in that, free will plays more of a roll in the receiving of grace.

John’s a strange bird, from what I understand. Some of his bible exegesis is really, really good. And then he gets on a rant regarding the Church. But I haven’t spent any time on his writings recently.

BTW, how much time do you spend adding the colors to your posts?!?!?!

 

[Mark01]

If OSAS exist as I have seen it expressed and defined in this thread is to be the case for the true Christian, why do we face a particular judgment when we die? There would be no need for it.

 

[NotWorthy]

If OSAS exist as I have seen it expressed and defined in this thread is to be the case for the true Christian, why do we face a particular judgment when we die? There would be no need for it.

… and… why would the particular judgment use our actions as part of the criteria for where we go?

Incidentally, I once heard the parable of the sheep and the goats explained away as pure predestination. The Sheep went to heaven because they were sheep and the Goats went to hell because they were goats. I guess the debater who proposed this idea never examined the part that says, “**FOR **when I was hungry, you fed me.… yada, yada, yada”.

 

[brb3]

No - it is dangerous to follow the doctrines and precepts of men, instead of the Church established by Jesus.

And even more dangerous when they change their very theology.

a Church established by Jesus … built upon a man, one of 12 men?

dangerous to change our theology beliefs ?.. when Christ told the Jewish Temple leaders they need to do this very thing, if they desired to see Heaven

 

[brb3]

Have you heard John MacArthur speak about the Catholic Church? I have and he is one of the most virulent anti-Catholics out there. He spews lie after lie about what we supposedly believe in and teaches.

Yes, I’ve heard that sermon. It is very, very errant. But, John Mac is sorely mistaken about the Catholic Church. Just as the first apostles were occasionally mistaken about who was preaching the Christian message … he is very wrong in his opinion.

If John could spend a day with a priest or the pope, attend several masses, or debate Staples or Hahn on the Catholic Church … he would rethink his beliefs and recant.

At least he is open-minded on scripture/theology … and God will be able to confront him successfully someday. If all the Catholics who listen to him would pray for him … it might happen real soon. But, if he ever does … don’t expect him to give up his OSAS beliefs. I think the Church could tolerate his definition of OSAS … since the Church can accept OSAS in those to whom it has been a ‘private’ revelation.

 

[brb3]

John’s a strange bird, from what I understand. Some of his bible exegesis is really, really good. But I haven’t spent any time on his writings recently.

I believe he needs to update/revise many of his older sermons, etc. They still reflect his old beliefs. John is on the Potter’s Wheel right now, being re-shaped by H.S.

 

[Dokimas]

I have a question for those who believe in OSAS .who are the people that the inspired word of God is talking to in the following passages:Math 6 14,15:you must forgive others their tresspasses or else God wont forgive yours.if you arent forgiven can you still go to Heaven?Math 5 29-30 gouge out your eye,cut off your hand…better to enter life without a member then to go to Gehenna intact…do whatever it takes to stop sinning.why maim yourself if it cant cause you to loose your salvation… Galatians 5:19-20. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” 1 Cor 6 9-10 is similiar… can OASAers do these and go to Heaven?

Can someone get ‘saved’ then u’nsaved’ then ‘saved’ again?

 

[NotWorthy]

Can someone get ‘saved’ then u’nsaved’ then ‘saved’ again?

Why yes, they can.

I believe the tribes of Israel pre-figured this in the book of Judges.

But in the New Testament, I would look at the Prodigal Son to show that someone could be alive, dead, and then alive again.

 

[Dokimas]

Why yes, they can.

I believe the tribes of Israel pre-figured this in the book of Judges.

But in the New Testament, I would look at the Prodigal Son to show that someone could be alive, dead, and then alive again.

So what does the following mean?

Heb 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.