A question for OSASers

[Dokimas]

BTW, I haven’t done a good job of putting on Christ in my communication with Elvis. In fact, my flesh has been naked. I’m sorry, Elvis; I’m sorry everyone. I can’t say I won’t do it again, but for now I hope I won’t. There’s a fine line we walk each and every day.

 

[NotWorthy]

BTW, I haven’t done a good job of putting on Christ in my communication with Elvis. In fact, my flesh has been naked. I’m sorry, Elvis; I’m sorry everyone. I can’t say I won’t do it again, but for now I hope I won’t. There’s a fine line we walk each and every day.

I think you’ve tried to be most cordial with Elvis, but you let him get under your skin (which, I believe, you are trying to apologize for).

I think we should **ALL **remember St. Peter’s words **Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ro 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us **put on **the armor of light.
Ro 13:14 But **put on **the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must **put on **incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has **put on **incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have **put on **Christ.
Eph 4:24 and that you **put on **the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having **put on **the breastplate of righteousness,
Col 3:10 and have **put on **the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, **put on **tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:14 But above all these things **put on **love, which is the bond of perfection.

I thought this last sentence that I found also fit the context of what you’re saying:

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And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.”*

God Bless!

 

[Dokimas]

I think you’ve tried to be most cordial with Elvis, but you let him get under your skin (which, I believe, you are trying to apologize for).

I think we should **ALL **remember St. Peter’s words ***Always be ready to give an explanation ***to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

Thank you, NWorthy. (I don’t feel comfortable calling you NOTworthy.)

 

[Dokimas]

I thought this last sentence that I found also fit the context of what you’re saying:

---

And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility ***in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.”

God Bless!

Another of Peter’s words of wisdom. I owe you thanks again, IMOWorthy.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

 

[brb3]

If OSAS is what the Bible teaches - prove it. Nobody has yet because the context of Scripture is against you all.

When OSAS is defined correctly … it is biblical ! Those whom Christ saves, he saves entirely and eternally … provided they continue in perseverance

This is what MOST protestants know it to mean, and many Catholics who accept ALL of scripture on the topic.

 

[NotWorthy]

When OSAS is defined correctly … it is biblical ! Those whom Christ saves, he saves entirely and eternally … provided they continue in perseverance

This is what MOST protestants know it to mean, and many Catholics who accept ALL of scripture on the topic.

I’m interested in the part that I underlined. Down here in Southeast Texas where the Evangelicals are predominant, Protestants don’t know OSAS to mean that. “If someone falls away, then obviously they were never saved to begin with” is the prevailing thought. Is this unique to my area?

 

[brb3]

I’m interested in the part that I underlined. Down here in Southeast Texas where the Evangelicals are predominant, Protestants don’t know OSAS to mean that. “If someone falls away, then obviously they were never saved to begin with” is the prevailing thought. Is this unique to my area?

Most Protestant evangelicals who claim BornAgain status … will acknowledge they have no biblical liberty to return to sinning like a heathen. Namely, they doubt ones salvation if that person claims salvation yet never reforms life or promptly returns to secular ways of living.

However, for those they know whose lives were truly changed, who for quite some time gave glory to the Lord and had reformed their lives, … if these later fall away as Prodigals, the Protestant evangelicals will see them as the OSAS, who will oneday be restored to the Father, after being severely judged by God for such disobedience.

We Catholics face this same issue with the sexual child abuses of our priests. Are these priests legit converts to the faith who are prodigals and will repent and recover salvation … or judas priests who have committed suicide, having crucified Christ ?

The Early Church knew when to excommunicate the false shepherds, and had the Spirit of Christ to guide them in making correct calls. Do we today ?

 

[elvisman]

What are you talking about?

In post #134, YOU made the following statement:
"I perceive that to get some of your understandings you, how did you put it about others, "must do some pretty complex Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at … " some of your doctrinal understandings. I wonder if you have the courage to put aside such understandings in favor of Biblical truth?"**

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This thread is about OSAS. If you think I’m wrong (the Church, that is) then prove me wrong.

 

[elvisman]

When OSAS is defined correctly … it is biblical ! Those whom Christ saves, he saves entirely and eternally … provided they continue in perseverance

This is what MOST protestants know it to mean, and many Catholics who accept ALL of scripture on the topic.

And those Protestants - AND Catholics would be WRONG.**

Look - if you reject Catholic teachings and doctrines - why do you continue to identify yourself as Catholic?

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This is NOT a minor issue - it is a major issue that speaks to our understanding of our eternal souls. Salvation is a lifelong process - not a slam-dunk, one-time event. The Bible is VERY clear on this.

I have provided verse after verse to refute the false doctrine of OSAS.
Can you refute them?
Romans 11:22**
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

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Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

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2 Peter 2:20-21****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified".

John 15:5-9

**“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.” **

 

[Dokimas]

In post #134, YOU made the following statement:
"I perceive that to get some of your understandings you, how did you put it about others, "must do some pretty complex Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at … " some of your doctrinal understandings. I wonder if you have the courage to put aside such understandings in favor of Biblical truth?"**

---

This thread is about OSAS. If you think I’m wrong (the Church, that is) then prove me wrong.

I have in other discussions proven my opinion from the Bible that differs from your opinion.

 

[elvisman]

Most Protestant evangelicals who claim BornAgain status … will acknowledge they have no biblical liberty to return to sinning like a heathen. Namely, they doubt ones salvation if that person claims salvation yet never reforms life or promptly returns to secular ways of living.

However, for those they know whose lives were truly changed, who for quite some time gave glory to the Lord and had reformed their lives, … if these later fall away as Prodigals, the Protestant evangelicals will see them as the OSAS, who will oneday be restored to the Father, after being severely judged by God for such disobedience.

We Catholics face this same issue with the sexual child abuses of our priests. Are these priests legit converts to the faith who are prodigals and will repent and recover salvation … or judas priests who have committed suicide, having crucified Christ ?

The Early Church knew when to excommunicate the false shepherds, and had the Spirit of Christ to guide them in making correct calls. Do we today ?

Are you implying that a sinner cannot repent after falling from grace?
Is THAT what you’re saying?

 

[Dokimas]

**Are you implying that a sinner cannot **repent after falling from grace?
Is THAT what you’re saying?

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.​

What does this mean (especially the bold). How about the analogy of the earth that gets rain and bears thorns and is cursed by burning?​

Of course I hope were not speaking of any sinner sinning losing their salvation!!! Sinners don’t just loose their salvation until they repent. I am refering to those who reject the salvation they seemed to have had.​

 

[elvisman]

I have in other discussions proven my opinion from the Bible that differs from your opinion.

**Make up your mind. We are discussing OSAS. In one post, you told me that you no longer believe in it. **
**I have stated my case CLEARLY: I reject OSAS with every fiber of my being - as Scripture does. **

Whether or not we have had disagreements in other threads has no bearing on this thread - even if you ARE attempting to derail this thread with your changing the subject at every turn.

**In one, final decision from you on OSAS - do you embrace this false doctrine - or do you reject it?

SIMPLE question.

 

[elvisman]

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.​

What does this mean (especially the bold). How about the analogy of the earth that gets rain and bears thorns and is cursed by burning?

These verses PROVE the falsehood of OSAS because they speak to a person who has fallen away from the TRUTH. They speak to those who fall away and are IMPENITENT - thorns and all

**It is impossible for them to speak to those who fall away and are repentant. **
**That would make the Bible - the written word of God himself - a great big lie.
Are you willing to concede to that?
I’M not . . .

 

[Dokimas]

Make up your mind. We are discussing OSAS. In one post, you told me that you no longer believe in it.
I have stated my case CLEARLY: I reject OSAS with every fiber of my being - as Scripture does.

**Whether or not we have had disagreements in other **threads has no bearing on this thread - even if you ARE attempting to derail this thread with your changing the subject at every turn.

In one, final decision from you on OSAS - do you embrace this false doctrine - or do you *reject *it?

SIMPLE question.

I’ve never changed my mind. I told you that not all your opinions are correct, IMO. I was refering to things other than OSAS. Sorry that wasn’t clear to you.

BTW, just because you or I believe something with every fiber of our being doesn’t make it true. Faith doesn’t make something true, God establishes truth.​

I anwered you directly about OSAS. Go back and read it again. I haven’t changed my opinion.

 

[Dokimas]

These verses PROVE the falsehood of OSAS because they speak to a person who has fallen away from the TRUTH. They speak to those who fall away and are IMPENITENT - thorns and all

**It is **impossible for them to speak to those who fall away and are repentant.
***That ***would make the Bible - the written word of God himself - a great big lie.
Are you willing to concede to that?
I’M not . . .

Of course the Bible isn’t a lie. It’s your and my understandings that can be wrong.​

What are you speaking about when you say, ‘they speak to a person …’? That does this have to do with the verses in Heb 6? How do we know who’s fallen away? We don’t know; we are told to speak the truth in love.

 

[elvisman]

I think you’ve tried to be most cordial with Elvis, but you let him get under your skin (which, I believe, you are trying to apologize for).

I think we should **ALL **remember St. Peter’s words ***Always be ready to give an explanation ***to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

Read post #125.

 

[Dokimas]

Read post #125.

NWorthy was gracious enough to help take the log out of my eye. Why not let him help take the speck out of yours?

 

[brb3]

This is NOT a minor issue - it is a major issue that speaks to our understanding of our eternal souls. Salvation is a lifelong process - not a slam-dunk, one-time event. The Bible is VERY clear on this.

I have provided verse after verse to refute the false doctrine of OSAS.
**Can *you ***refute them?

OSAS proponents understand the ONGOING aspect of their salvations. They have been saved, they are saved, and if they persevere they WILL be saved. However, regarding their futures … they trust Christ to preserve them til their last day. They trust the Son to deliver them to the Father, on their last day. They read in scripture where Christ says he ‘will never leave or forsake them’. They read in scriptures where Christ says ‘if we ask anything in his name, he will grant our petitions’. So, OSAS proponents pray to the Son to help them persevere … and they KNOW He will honor his WORD in scripture, as recorded by John, Peter, and Paul.

Its time you incorporate some OSAS scriptural passages into your daily meditations. Salvation Assurance is not something to desire to discredit / debunk. It is of the highest value to a disciple. Christ knew this is needful for his disciples, and gave such assurance to the Thief on the Cross. Would He do any less for you / I ?