A Question for Protestants

[Prayer_Warrior]

[Here is a question I still have about Mary: If she was kept sinless by God, why does she deserve so much respect for her fiat? If you were sinless, wouldn’t you do all of God’s will easily as well? If somebody gave you the gift of sinlessness, wouldn’t obeying be extremely easy? I do not ask this question to be disrespectful but out of sincere confusion

I can see your point about it being “easier” to do God’s will without the weight of original sin on your soul. However, my understanding (and anyone can jump in here to correct me) is that Mary still had free will. Just as Adam and Eve did prior to their disobedience. They were created as sinless human beings but they still chose to disobey the Lord. Mary was created a sinless human being but chose to obey. Her obedience opened the door for the Savior of humankind. So, I feel she deserves the honor and love that most Catholics feel for her.

Hope that helps you a little bit.
[/quote]

 

[LRThunder]

JSmitty2005:

I’m just wondering, from what perspective are you coming? I’m assuming you’re Protestant, but what denomination? Also, remember that the Orthodox also believe that Mary was sinless (actually Muslims believe this too), but they have a different understanding of Original Sin, so they reject the Immaculate Conception…but that’s for the Eastern forums.

I originally grew up as a Free Methodist, then went to a Southern Baptist Church. Right now, I’m a member of a Presbyterian (PCA) Church. Incidentally, when I joined the Presbyterian Church, I had a problem with infant baptism, but now I see how it is scriptural.

 

[valient_Lucy]

ICXCNIKA:

If you are a Protestant Christian, this question is for you.

Can you please tell me, what is the problem with Mary being sinless? Why do you (if you do) have a problem with it?

Thank you.

Well, I am joining the Catholic Church this Easter from Protestantism. My grandmother, a Lutheran, first told me that the Catholic Church taught that Mary did not sin, as though this was terrible. I was also shocked, this went against my Protestant sensibillities. My grandmother said, “If Mary didn’t have sin, then who needs Jesus?” In other words, if Mary didn’t sin, and didn’t need to be redeemed by Christ, then why should anyone need to be redeemed by Christ? Basically, we felt that the Church taught that Mary was so holy by her own power that she didn’t need a Savior; she didn’t need Christ of his Sacrifice on the cross.
The Immaculate Conception was one of the hardest things for me to accept. I had a MUCH, MUCH, easier time accepting the Assumption of Mary (an event with biblical precidents, ie Elijah and Enoch) then I did for the Immaculate Conception.

 

[JSmitty2005]

TridentineFan:

Why do Protestants have a problem with all things Mary? I think that individual Protestants will not have very solid answers because I think the real problem stems from the Protestant Reformation. The rebellion against Catholicism is so strong that anything that seems uniquely Catholic (Mary) has to be thrown out.

I think you’re right on this part. Even if Marian devotion is completely reasonable, Protestants reject it for the simple reason that it is uniquely “Catholic.” This line of thinking (or lack thereof) goes for a host of other issues as well.

 

[MariaG]

JSmitty2005:

I think you’re right on this part. Even if Marian devotion is completely reasonable, Protestants reject it for the simple reason that it is uniquely “Catholic.” This line of thinking (or lack thereof) goes for a host of other issues as well.

Thankfully, the tide is changing on this and some of our Protestant Brethren are rediscovering that devotion to Mary, (Note, devotion is NOT the same thing as worship, think devoted to your spouse ), can deepen our worship of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[ICXCNIKA]

LRThunder:

That’s a good point. I actually thought about that after my post.

I was wondering how Mary could’ve been made sinless if she was born to a human father and human mother. I guess the only way was through God’s intervention.

So the problem is a clarification in the how? I ask because I don’t know why Mary’s sinlessness meets with such opposition.

As soon as I tell someone I beleive Mary was sinless, he assumes it means Mary must be worshipped. I don’t get the connection. Is it just a fear of something that is Catholic?

This is an honest question with no apologetic strings attached.

 

[LRThunder]

ICXCNIKA:

So the problem is a clarification in the how? I ask because I don’t know why Mary’s sinlessness meets with such opposition.

As soon as I tell someone I beleive Mary was sinless, he assumes it means Mary must be worshipped. I don’t get the connection. Is it just a fear of something that is Catholic?

This is an honest question with no apologetic strings attached.

The problem was in the how. But I have a better understanding now.

 

[ICXCNIKA]

valient Lucy:

Well, I am joining the Catholic Church this Easter from Protestantism. My grandmother, a Lutheran, first told me that the Catholic Church taught that Mary did not sin, as though this was terrible. I was also shocked, this went against my Protestant sensibillities. My grandmother said, “If Mary didn’t have sin, then who needs Jesus?” In other words, if Mary didn’t sin, and didn’t need to be redeemed by Christ, then why should anyone need to be redeemed by Christ? Basically, we felt that the Church taught that Mary was so holy by her own power that she didn’t need a Savior; she didn’t need Christ of his Sacrifice on the cross.
The Immaculate Conception was one of the hardest things for me to accept. I had a MUCH, MUCH, easier time accepting the Assumption of Mary (an event with biblical precidents, ie Elijah and Enoch) then I did for the Immaculate Conception.

Thank you. That makes sense. I can see how someone would see her sinlessness as her not needing Jesus. The Catholic Church, however does teach that Mary did need Jesus. As you know.

 

[Angainor]

ICXCNIKA:

If you are a Protestant Christian, this question is for you.

When I talk with Protestants about the sinlessness of Mary I meet with resistence.

Can you please tell me, what is the problem with Mary being sinless? Why do you (if you do) have a problem with it?

It is a fantastic* claim that has no bearing on anyone’s salvation. As such, I don’t spend much time contemplating it.

Outside of that there is Romans 3:23 of course.

Also, RyanL said [post=1425800]it was fitting[/post] for Mary to be sinless. That may be, but it would also be fitting for Jesus to be born in a palace and clothed in silk…

God chose for Jesus to live under humble circumstances. It is not fitting for his mother to be super-extra-special.

*i.e. extravagant

 

[VociMike]

Angainor:

God chose for Jesus to live under humble circumstances. It is not fitting for his mother to be super-extra-special.

And yet that is exactly the fate of every person who ends up in heaven, to be super-extra-special.

Interesting that you think it’s “not fitting” for the woman who bore Jesus to have loved Him completely, and to have submitted completely to His will. By that logic it’s “not fitting” for anybody to be a strong Christian. The stronger the Christian the less fitting, I guess.

 

[Angainor]

VociMike:

And yet that is exactly the fate of every person who ends up in heaven, to be super-extra-special.

Interesting that you think it’s “not fitting” for the woman who bore Jesus to have loved Him completely, and to have submitted completely to His will. By that logic it’s “not fitting” for anybody to be a strong Christian. The stronger the Christian the less fitting, I guess.

Well sure, I suppose it is “fitting” for everyone to be sinless. But then the Father wouldn’t have had to send Jesus to live and die among us if we all lived up to what was fitting for us.

What I was trying to say was that the Father didn’t choose for the Son to be born under super-extra-special circumstances. He was born in a stable and wrapped in swaddling clothes. This gives me no particular reason to think his mother was super-extra-special.

 

[DeFide]

Angainor:

What I was trying to say was that the Father didn’t choose for the Son to be born under super-extra-special circumstances. He was born in a stable and wrapped in swaddling clothes. This gives me no particular reason to think his mother was super-extra-special.

Not special? You’re forgetting about:

The angels, the wisemen following a star, the prophecies of Jesus’ birth, not to mention the sinless and divine nature of Jesus himself.

Does this give you some particular reasons to think his mother might also be special?

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

Do Protestants accept the idea of Mary as the new Eve?

 

[christaddict]

Angainor:

Well sure, I suppose it is “fitting” for everyone to be sinless. But then the Father wouldn’t have had to send Jesus to live and die among us if we all lived up to what was fitting for us.

What I was trying to say was that the Father didn’t choose for the Son to be born under super-extra-special circumstances. He was born in a stable and wrapped in swaddling clothes. This gives me no particular reason to think his mother was super-extra-special.

Poor is not the one without bread, poor is the one who has no life in his soul.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Angainor:

Well sure, I suppose it is “fitting” for everyone to be sinless. But then the Father wouldn’t have had to send Jesus to live and die among us if we all lived up to what was fitting for us. Shouldn’t you too?

What I was trying to say was that the Father didn’t choose for the Son to be born under super-extra-special circumstances. He was born in a stable and wrapped in swaddling clothes. This gives me no particular reason to think his mother was super-extra-special.

I thought that you were a conservative Lutheran (LCMS). Luther believed Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin, etc.

Martin Luther’s Devotion to Mary

Counter-Reply: Martin Luther’s Mariology (Particularly the Immaculate Conception)

Second Reply Concerning Martin Luther’s Mariology

James Swan vs. Lutheran Scholarship Affirming Luther’s Lifelong Acceptance of the Immaculate Conception

Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

 

[valient_Lucy]

Angainor:

God chose for Jesus to live under humble circumstances. It is not fitting for his mother to be super-extra-special.

*i.e. extravagant

The very fact that Mary gave birth to the Second Person in the Trinity makes her super-extra-special.

 

[mozart-250]

Well…I don’t consider myself a Protestant as much as just a Christian…but you would probably consider me one…

I don’t believe in the sinlessness of Mary because I have not been given reason to believe in it…either through Scripture or through evidence that it is apostolic teaching. Outside of a reason to believe otherwise, then the normal reading of Romans 3:23 would be that she falls under it.

However, my more important question is importance…

Is it important that I believe Mary is sinless? I seem to sense to Catholics it is? If so why? If I am wrong what is the impact?

 

[Angainor]

JSmitty2005:

I thought that you were a conservative Lutheran (LCMS). Luther believed Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin

Yes, I sometimes forget. Thank you for reminding me.

 

[valient_Lucy]

mozart-250:

Well…I don’t consider myself a Protestant as much as just a Christian…but you would probably consider me one…

I don’t believe in the sinlessness of Mary because I have not been given reason to believe in it…either through Scripture or through evidence that it is apostolic teaching. Outside of a reason to believe otherwise, then the normal reading of Romans 3:23 would be that she falls under it.

However, my more important question is importance…

Is it important that I believe Mary is sinless? I seem to sense to Catholics it is? If so why? If I am wrong what is the impact?

Catholics believe that it is important, because we believe that it is TRUE, and part of the Faith REVEALED to us by God. People cannot pick and choose what truths to believe to be from God, anymore than I can pick and choose which books in the Bible are inspired by God.

As for Romans 3:23, has a baby sinned?

 

[mozart-250]

valient Lucy:

Catholics believe that it is important, because we believe that it is TRUE, and part of the Faith REVEALED to us by God. People cannot pick and choose what truths to believe to be from God, anymore than I can pick and choose which books in the Bible are inspired by God.

As for Romans 3:23, has a baby sinned?

Nope…a baby has not sinned. And I was not trying to use Romans 3:23 as a prooftext against (I realize prooftexting is more difficult than it seems). More in the sense I am looking for a reason to believe Mary is an exception (as babies obviously are).

And while Catholics believe it is TRUE, the church that I attend believes it is NOT TRUE. Therefore no matter what I choose to believe on the topic at hand, I recognize I will be wrong to some Christians.

So while I agree in the abstract that people cannot pick and choose what truths are from God, it is not so simple when there are contradictory branches of the same faith all claiming to speak for God.