A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

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Dokimas said:
The NT doesn’t teach infant baptism AND it wasn’t practiced by the earliest church members. At least that’s the best understanding as one reads the NT without blinders of presuppositions.
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Well, you danced around the issue, so I’ll ask you again:

Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant Baptism and how they not only supported it but practiced it.

I issue this challenge to ALL Protestants who deny infant Baptism.
 
Dokimas said:
Only a warped mind would think being called anti-catholic would be a way of showing respect ,unless you are anti-catholic.
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Doki - you really need to get over yourself and stick to the topic - that of Infant Baptism. You did this on another thread when you got angry with me after being stumped.
It became the “Dokimas Pity Party”.

I issued a challenge and so far, all you’ve done is dance and throw up non-sequitors.
Can you answer the challenge? It’s really a simple request.
 
TriuneUnity said:
That is true… but please address verse 6.
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As we know children are trusting by nature, children trust adults, and because of their trusting nature they are easly lead to Christ and to other things. Now God does holds their parents and other adults accountable for how they influence children. Here in this verse, Jesus warned that anyone who turns little children away from Christ they will receive severe punishment.
 
TobyLue in blace; Doki in color

Dokimas Tell us please, when did the Holy Spirit print the Bible and drop it on your lap and assured you that YOU would be able to interpret it correctly? He didn’t (as my point said; I can’t without perfect understanding from the Holy Spirit - which won’t happen until Heaven.)

Oh, and BTW, that statement that the Bible fell from the sky, that’s not far from the truth because that seems to be the attitude of all “bible believer onlys” ignoring the fact that Jesus said that THE CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. The questions isn’t where Jesus was correct or not but which church was He speaking about; IMO, the CC in not that church but many of its members are part of It. Also ignoring that fact that NOWHERE in the bible does it say that we are to believe ONLY in what is printed in the Bible. Please show us book, chapter and verse. We are to believe ONLY what is True. That’s why I try to believe what’s in the Bible..

You criticize (I** don’t criticize, just make observations that may or may not be correct**) Catholics because nowhere does it say in the Bible specifically to “Baptize infants” but yet you believe in the Bible only but you cant show us chapter, or verse, or even show us that the Early Church believed in the Bible only (When the resurrected Jesus spoke to the two disciples on the road to Ammaus, what Book did He use to reveal truths about Himself to the two men? Did Jesus inclue oral traditions? BTW, the NT was penned by 1st century disciples/apostles.), oh, say around the years 90, 100, 200, 300. You have been shown proof as to why the Early Church believed in infant baptism, but you hide behind the “it’s not in the bible, it’s not in the bible”! OK then, show us where it says in the Bible , “You are to believe ONLY in the Bible” Silly question. No answer required.
 
elvisman said:
Doki - you really need to get over yourself and stick to the topic - that of Infant Baptism. You did this on another thread when you got angry with me after being stumped.
It became the “Dokimas Pity Party”.

I issued a challenge and so far, all you’ve done is dance and throw up non-sequitors.
Can you answer the challenge? It’s really a simple request.
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If I could produce a computer mirror I’d give it to you. Thanks for decribing yourself, but we already knew. 😃
 
RockyRoad said:
Doki…I didn’t know you were anti-Catholic. I never got that impression. You just disagree with some of what the CC does or teaches. I don’t think that makes you anti-Catholic.

Your brother in Christ
Rocky
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Thank you Rocky. Just call me Bullwinkle or Vienna Mocha Chip. 😃
 
rev_kevin said:
As we know children are trusting by nature, children trust adults, and because of their trusting nature they are easly lead to Christ and to other things. Now God does holds their parents and other adults accountable for how they influence children. Here in this verse, Jesus warned that anyone who turns little children away from Christ they will receive severe punishment.
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I am referring to the fact that Jesus says the child he called to himself believed in him. According to your argument, children cannot have faith (and bear in mind the Greek in the language is brephos, which means infant, especially true in Luke 18).
 
TriuneUnity said:
I am referring to the fact that Jesus says the child he called to himself believed in him. According to your argument, children cannot have faith (and bear in mind the Greek in the language is brephos, which means infant, especially true in Luke 18).
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Matthew 18:
1 ¶ At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 Then Jesus called a **little child ** [paidion] to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 "Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
6 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

3813 παιδιον paidion pahee-dee’-on

from dimin. of 3816; TDNT-5:636,759; n n

AV-child 25, little child 12, young child 10, damsel 4; 51
  1. a young child, a little boy, a little girl
    1a) infants
    1b) children, little ones
    1c) an infant
    1c1) of a (male) child just recently born
    1d) of a more advanced child; of a mature child;
    1e) metaph. children (like children) in intellect
For Synonyms see entry 5868 & 5943

Okay, babies don’t sin, correct?; babies believe, correct?; babies don’t need to be baptized!!!😃
 
Dokimas said:
Matthew 18:
1 ¶ At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 Then Jesus called a **little child ** [paidion] to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 "Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
6 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

3813 παιδιον paidion pahee-dee’-on

from dimin. of 3816; TDNT-5:636,759; n n

AV-child 25, little child 12, young child 10, damsel 4; 51
  1. a young child, a little boy, a little girl
    1a) infants
    1b) children, little ones
    1c) an infant
    1c1) of a (male) child just recently born
    1d) of a more advanced child; of a mature child;
    1e) metaph. children (like children) in intellect
For Synonyms see entry 5868 & 5943

Okay, babies don’t sin, correct?; babies believe, correct?; babies don’t need to be baptized!!!😃
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It does not make sense to say that babies do not need to be baptized, because even though they do not sin as babies they sin when they grow older. It says in the Bible that one cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being baptized.
 
TriuneUnity said:
I am referring to the fact that Jesus says the child he called to himself believed in him. According to your argument, children cannot have faith (and bear in mind the Greek in the language is brephos, which means infant, especially true in Luke 18).
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brephos- of uncert. an infant {prop. unborn} lit. or fig.–baby, {young} child. infant.
teknon- a child, {as produced} child, daughter, son.
nepios- and infant {minor} fig. as simple minded person, and immature Christian, baby, child {ish}
paidon- a childing {of either sex{ {prop.} and infant, or {by extens.} a half-grown boy or girl. fig. an immature Christian, {little, young} child, damsel.
pais- a boy {*** often beaten with impunity}, or {by anal.} a girl, and {gen.} a child. spec. a slave or servant. {espec. a minister to a king, and by eminence to God} child, maid, {en}, {man} servant, son. young man.

You only picked one Greek word but as you can see the one you picked also means child. But for these verses I would say that “nepios” or “paidon” fits better because the disciples were acting like immature Christians which is also true for Luke 18:15-17.
 
Dokimas said:
Okay, babies don’t sin, correct?; babies believe, correct?; babies don’t need to be baptized!!!😃
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Infants are sinners. Infants can have faith. Not sure what would make you come up with the third. Since you can have faith, does that mean you didn’t need to be baptized, either?
 
rev_kevin said:
brephos- of uncert. an infant {prop. unborn} lit. or fig.–baby, {young} child. infant.
teknon- a child, {as produced} child, daughter, son.
nepios- and infant {minor} fig. as simple minded person, and immature Christian, baby, child {ish}
paidon- a childing {of either sex{ {prop.} and infant, or {by extens.} a half-grown boy or girl. fig. an immature Christian, {little, young} child, damsel.
pais- a boy {*** often beaten with impunity}, or {by anal.} a girl, and {gen.} a child. spec. a slave or servant. {espec. a minister to a king, and by eminence to God} child, maid, {en}, {man} servant, son. young man.

You only picked one Greek word but as you can see the one you picked also means child. But for these verses I would say that “nepios” or “paidon” fits better because the disciples were acting like immature Christians which is also true for Luke 18:15-17.
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In Matthew, where little child is used, yes, paidon is the Greek word. The Greek word in Luke 18 is brephos. Which is why the NASB translates it as “babies.”
 
TriuneUnity said:
In Matthew, where little child is used, yes, paidon is the Greek word. The Greek word in Luke 18 is brephos. Which is why the NASB translates it as “babies.”
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Ok I’ll give you Luke 18 as “brephos.” Now the word not only means infant but it also means an infant {prop. unborn} baby, young child, infant.
So if you want to use the word brephos just remember what it means, unborn, baby, young child. So it could mean anyone of these not just infant.
 
Dokimas said:
Babies sin?
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Actually they don’t sin per se, all humans are born with the STAIN of sin on their souls… it’s that Adam thing coming up to haunt us again. 😦

Baptism removes the stain of original sin… that’s why “once baptised doesn’t mean sinless for life” but that original sin stain is gone for life.
 
RockyRoad said:
Doki…I didn’t know you were anti-Catholic. I never got that impression. You just disagree with some of what the CC does or teaches. I don’t think that makes you anti-Catholic.

Your brother in Christ
Rocky
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Then what would you call someone that disagrees with the church that christ himself founded? 🤷 The authority given to the church was by christ himself! Are you saying you know more than christ and his church? BY what authority do you have to say that christ church is in error! 🤷 Are you more of an authority that christ himself? The total foundation of truth. Doki and others have been shown many writings by the early church fathers that rebukes their personal view on infant baptism by many very informed posters on this thread.
It looks like the truth is a hard pill to swallow for many that have their own truth.
Infant baptism is a recorded historical fact! Please show me where infants were not baptized. Please prove the early church wrong about infant baptism!

Matthew
 
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