A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

[Dokimas]

When Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus, where did He say that repentance was a prerequisite? Where does Jesus say you must be baptizes but only if you are old enough? Jesus said in order to enter into heaven you must be baptizes. Where does He say but if you are a child you don’t need to be?

Without reading into a statement by Jesus, could you produce the verse where Jesus says one must be baptized in water to enter Heaven?​

Were does Jesus say babies need to be baptized?

 

[Dokimas]

Thank you for your response, Doki. It’s very honest, albeit flawed.

I don’t understand how you can come to the conclusion that the ECFs were wrong - especially since there is not one, single Protestant historian or theologian that agrees with you.
They will generally attempt to twist the meaning of the writings of the ECFs or take them out of context - but they would never dismiss them as just being wrong.

I am astonished at why anybody wold feel this way but I’m not surprised that some do. To accept Protestantism, you have to dismiss anything that gets in your way - especially since the ECFs were clearly Catholic.

The beauty of the Bible is that it shows (name removed by moderator)erfections of many of the important leaders like Peter. I don’t expect the ECF to get it 100% correct. That doesn’t minimize their value.​

To be the stedfast catholic you are, you have to have ignor any good argument against a teaching. You see, for you the CC is all correct and there can’t be anything less. Too bad.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

To be the stedfast catholic you are, you have to have ignor any good argument against a teaching. You see, for you the CC is all correct and there can’t be anything less. Too bad.

You haven’t presented any “good argument” that could be considered. You’re just ranting that people hold steadfastly to their beliefs. If you clearly articulate an problem, I’m sure it can be answered and won’t be ignored.

What is your objection to children being baptized?

 

[Dokimas]

You haven’t presented any “good argument” that could be considered. You’re just ranting that people hold steadfastly to their beliefs. If you clearly articulate an problem, I’m sure it can be answered and won’t be ignored.

What is your objection to children being baptized?

I’ve been over and over it before. I don’t have time now to get into it again. BTW, why is it important for infants to be baptized?

 

[PeaceSerenity]

The Bible has countless examples of families being baptized together into the Church. Just as children are welcome to eat with us at the dining table, so should they be invited to be completely in the family of the Church. Baptism is a dedication to God. Mary was not fully conscious of her relationship to God, etc. when she was presented to the temple, she did not make that choice, but she was still dedicated to God. Infants are God’s, so we must give them to God, allowing them to be part of His family.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

The beauty of the Bible is that it shows (name removed by moderator)erfections of many of the important leaders like Peter. I don’t expect the ECF to get it 100% correct. That doesn’t minimize their value.​

To be the stedfast catholic you are, you have to have ignor any good argument against a teaching. You see, for you the CC is all correct and there can’t be anything less. Too bad.

How can the bible contradict the church that wrote it???
The ECF’s can’t be 100% correct? Christ said the holy spirit would guide his church in total truth did he not? Please tell us how the ECF’s could be in error if guided by the the holy spirit?
I can’t wait to hear this…

Matthew

 

[LionHeart777]

The beauty of the Bible is that it shows (name removed by moderator)erfections of many of the important leaders like Peter. I don’t expect the ECF to get it 100% correct. That doesn’t minimize their value.​

To be the stedfast catholic you are, you have to have ignor any good argument against a teaching. You see, for you the CC is all correct and there can’t be anything less. Too bad.

Dokimas,

so if according to you the ECF’s were mistaken on infant baptism, in your opinion

were they correct or mistaken about these other beliefs they seem to have held:

1. Baptismal Regeneration
2. Apostolic Succession
3. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
4. Confession to a Priest
5. The hierarchy of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons
6. The possibiliy of a regenerated Christian throwing away their salvation
7. the existance of the Sacrament of Confirmation/ Chrismation

If you don’t believe that the Early Church held the same or very similar positions as the present day Catholic and Orthodox communions do on these topics, I suppose a thread could be started on each one.

 

[Dokimas]

How can the bible contradict the church that wrote it???
The ECF’s can’t be 100% correct? Christ said the holy spirit would guide his church in total truth did he not? Please tell us how the ECF’s could be in error if guided by the the holy spirit?
I can’t wait to hear this…

Matthew

1st century church member wrote the NT, men like Luke, Mark, Matthew, John, Peter, Paul and James.​

Jesus did not say all church member (or any) would be 100% correct. Peter wasn’t perfect in his understanding, nor was Paul. What makes you think any others would be perfect?

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas,

so if according to you the ECF’s were mistaken on infant baptism, in your opinion

were they correct or mistaken about these other beliefs they seem to have held:

1. Baptismal Regeneration
2. Apostolic Succession
3. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
4. Confession to a Priest
5. The hierarchy of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons
6. The possibiliy of a regenerated Christian throwing away their salvation
7. the existance of the Sacrament of Confirmation/ Chrismation

If you don’t believe that the Early Church held the same or very similar positions as the present day Catholic and Orthodox communions do on these topics, I suppose a thread could be started on each one.

Show me where these in the Bible and we have grounds to talk.

 

[elvisman]

The beauty of the Bible is that it shows (name removed by moderator)erfections of many of the important leaders like Peter. I don’t expect the ECF to get it 100% correct. That doesn’t minimize their value.

Actually, that’s incorrect. If you hold that the Church makes doctrinal errors, it not only minimizes (for you) the ECFs, but Christ and his Church, for they are inseperable (Acts 9:4-5). It also renders the Scriptures null and void because that would mean they lie when they say the Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).**

-s1st century church member wrote the NT, men like Luke, Mark, Matthew, John, Peter, Paul and James.

Yes - they’re ALL 1st Century Catholics.

-Jesus did not say all church member (or any) would be 100% correct. Peter wasn’t perfect in his understanding, nor was Paul. What makes you think any others would be perfect?

You’re absolutely right. Jesus DIDN’T say that ALL indivisuals within the Church would be 100% correct. He said the CHURCH would be free from error because the Holy Spirit would lead her to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).

-To be the stedfast catholic you are, you have to have ignor any good argument against a teaching. You see, for you the CC is all correct and there can’t be anything less. Too bad.

**I can’t deny that the Church is right in these matters. Jesus said she would be.
If Jesus told me that black was white and night was day - I would believe it because he is God.

He said it - I believe it. Too bad most Protestants don’t.

 

[Dokimas]

Actually, that’s incorrect**. If you hold that the Church makes doctrinal errors, it not only minimizes (for you) the ECFs, but Christ and his Church, for they are inseperable (Acts 9:4-5). It also renders the Scriptures null and void because that would mean they lie when they say the Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Yes - they’re ALL 1st Century Catholics.

You’re absolutely right. Jesus DIDN’T say that ALL indivisuals within the Church would be 100% correct. He said the CHURCH would be free from error because the Holy Spirit would lead her to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).

Incorrect.​

We’re agreed. ​

Agreed again.​

John 16:
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Looking to see where the verses you told me to look in says what you said It says. I don’t see what you see. So we disagree.

 

[elvisman]

I’ve been over and over it before. I don’t have time now to get into it again. BTW, why is it important for infants to be baptized?

Because Jesus said that unless we are born of water and spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (John 3:5).
**The real question is: Why would we deny heaven to babies?

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Yes - they’re ALL 1st Century Catholics./QUOTE]

Actually, they were first century Christians, I don’t think the apostles would identify themselves as Catholic, the term didn’t exist then. “Catholicism” only appeared as a “religion” after the schism in 1054.

 

[elvisman]

Incorrect.

About what?

-We’re agreed.

On what?

-Agreed again.

On what?

-John 16:
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Looking to see where the verses you told me to look in says what you said It says. I don’t see what you see. So we disagree.

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

---

**That pretty much sums up God-given Church Authority and protection from error. **I really don’t know how much clearer you want Jesus to be.

 

[elvisman]

Yes - they’re ALL

1st Century Catholics./QUOTE]

Actually, they were first century Christians, I don’t think the apostles would identify themselves as Catholic, the term didn’t exist then. “Catholicism” only appeared as a “religion” after the schism in 1054.
That’s a WHOLE other kettle of fish, my friend - for another thread.
I suggest you read Ignatius’ Letter to the Smyrnaeans, circa 110 A.D.
In it he refers to the “Catholic Church” as if it is a long-established entity and not something he just made up.

 

[LionHeart777]

Show me where these in the Bible and we have grounds to talk.

I think they all need a seperate thread. Maybe you could pick one and it would allow you to see Scripture and Tradition on a given topic.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

That’s a WHOLE other kettle of fish, my friend - for another thread.
I suggest you read Ignatius’ Letter to the Smyrnaeans, circa 110 A.D.
In it he refers to the “Catholic Church” as if it is a long-established entity and not something he just made up.

I hate to argue this point, since we are in agreement concerning the issue of this Topic (and this is totally off topic). The only reason I mentioned it was because, it’s kind of uncomfortable for the Orthodox when people say things like that. But there is a difference between catholic Church and Catholic Church. One being “the united church” which is something all the apostles were a part of, and the Catholic Church, meaning the “denomination”.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

About what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas View Post
-We’re agreed.
On what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas View Post
-Agreed again.
On what?

I’m having the same trouble as elvisman, Dokimas. Could you please explain what position you are criticizing and which you are trying to support, it doesn’t need to be long.

 

[Nicea325]

**Originally Posted by Dokimas​

I’ve been over and over it before. I don’t have time now to get into it again. BTW, why is it important for infants to be baptized?**

And where does Jesus or the Apostles or scripture state baptism is exclusivley for adults ONLY who can reason enough to repent and accept Jessus?

 

[rev_kevin]

**Originally Posted by Dokimas​

I’ve been over and over it before. I don’t have time now to get into it again. BTW, why is it important for infants to be baptized?**

And where does Jesus or the Apostles or scripture state baptism is exclusivley for adults ONLY who can reason enough to repent and accept Jessus?

Doesn’t the Bible say you need to Repent and be baptized? Can a infant repent?