A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

[FabiusMaximus]

The Catholic Church Baptizes infants. Show me the Biblical authority to do this?

Where does it say in Holy Scripture, “Do not Baptize infants”? Show me the Biblical authority NOT to Baptize infants?

Jesus Christ said in Matt 28:19, “GO, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…”
He did not say adults only did he? Did he ever put an age limit to receive Baptism?

Well the Bible refers to “entire households” being baptized, so presumably, that would include children. The Bible never refers to the baptism of those who have grown in the Church, just of those who converted to the Church.

 

[rev_kevin]

When John Leaped in his mother’s womb that wasn’t him believing I don’t know why you say an infant cannot believe. I think John did.
Point to another infant other than John. Did you believe as a infant? Could you make the choice to be baptized and did you even know what baptism was and meant as a infant?

I agree mostly with this BUT We believe in three forms of baptism

1. Baptism of desire. The Criminal on the cross
2. Baptism of Blood. Those killed for Jesus
3. Baptism of Water the ordinary way of Baptism.

Here we disagree. You state as fact that which you have not establishes as fact. Can an infant have faith. John did.
Again give me another infant. All you can point is to one. Give me another name of a infant that had/have faith and know they have faith and what it means.

The Scriptures equate baptism with circumcision which was normally an infant 8 days old. The choice is made like in Jewish circumcision by the parents.
Everything you quote does not explain that Jesus made no exceptions when He said that to enter Heaven you must be Baptized.

I quess you didn’t read Mark 16:16 that I quoted which says, “Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved.” Also I quoted Acts 2:38-39 that says "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ…?
Yes the choice was made by the parents but the infant had no choice in the matter. It also says the a infant was presented to God not baptized. Jesus was presented when he was a infant not baptized unless you consider circumcision baptism then why did Jesus get baptized by John?

 

[rev_kevin]

absolutely.
great post.

thoughts, revkev?
tweety?

see post #22

 

[Hesychios]

Jesus Christ said in Matt 28:19, “GO, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…”
He did not say adults only did he? Did he ever put an age limit to receive Baptism?

Neither did He ever put an age limit on receiving communion.

Therefore, infants should receive communion.

 

[rev_kevin]

Jesus Christ said in Matt 28:19, “GO, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…”
He did not say adults only did he? Did he ever put an age limit to receive Baptism?

Here Jesus told his disciples to make more disciples as they preached, baptized and taught. He was instructing his disciples on how to baptize, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. How many infants did John baptize?

 

[elvisman]

see post #22

I did.
Why do we need to find another example for you?

 

[elvisman]

Here Jesus told his disciples to make more disciples as they preached, baptized and taught. He was instructing his disciples on how to baptize, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. How many infants did John baptize?

Why did Peter baptize Cornelius’ household in Acts 10?
Or Paul the household of Stephanas in 1 Cor. 1:16.

How many children under the “age of reason” do you think they baptized when they did this?

 

[TobyLue]

elvisman

                      **The Early Church understood well the importance of baptizing *EVERYBODY ***within the family of believers:

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children**, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition** 21:16 A.D.215]).

**Origen
**“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (*Commentaries on Romans *5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Gregory of Nazianz
"Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (*Oration on Holy Baptism *40:7 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom
"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (*Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian *1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated** . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, “Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents” or “by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,” but, “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.” The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters** 98:2 A.D. 408]). and etc. etc.

Exactly - Now we all know that when the bible was put together IT HAD TO AGREE with what the Church was teaching as a whole. Now I would like somebody to tell me what Bible were these Early Fathers using? Did they go to a christian bookstore around the corner to purchase the newest version of the KJV?
This is the way I see it.
Great great great grandma Minerva has a recipe she came up with to make the best apple pie. Minerva taught her daughters how to make it and for many years they followed the exact same recipe. Minerva taught her daughters the exact same technique she used, even on how many times to knead the dough for the pie crust. However, some of her daughters gave the recipe to other friends. But these friends decided to change it a bit but continue to call it Minerva’s Best Apple Pie. Minerva’s daughter found out that the recipe of those people was not the same so they decided to write down Minervas recipe exactly as was taught to them even though they didn’t write down the exact times to knead the dough but they all knew exactly how many times the dough had to be kneaded. Then they gave it to their friends and taught their friends exactly how to make Minerva’s Best Apple Pie. Then along comes Jane a lady not related to Minerva’s family who looks at the recipe and decided that the recipe even though it calls for ¼ teaspoon of salt claim that Minerva didn’t actually mean ¼ tsp of salt but actually meant Epsom salt. Jane gives the recipe to Gloria who decided that ½ cup of sugar actually meant brown sugar and both Jane and Gloria accused Minerva’s daughter of not reading the recipe correct. Now, who knows better on how to make Minerva’s Best Apple Pie; Jane and Gloria or Minerva’s daughters? Jane and Gloria make all sorts of accusations against Minerva’s daughter that they don’t understand the recipe. Are they correct?
Think about it? Who know betters what the Bible teaches? The Disciples of the Early Fathers, some of who were taught by the Apostles who were taught by Jesus himself or some Joe who came along 1500 years later and claims he knows exactly what the bible teaches and the ECF’s are wrong?
So who knows better what the Bible teaches regarding infant Baptism. The Church that is the exact same Church that put the Bible together or “Jane and Gloria?”

 

[TriuneUnity]

I quess you didn’t read Mark 16:16 that I quoted which says, “Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved.” Also I quoted Acts 2:38-39 that says "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ…?

This is not a statement of chronology.

Yes the choice was made by the parents but the infant had no choice in the matter. It also says the a infant was presented to God not baptized. Jesus was presented when he was a infant not baptized unless you consider circumcision baptism then why did Jesus get baptized by John?

Jesus was presented as an infant in a rite of dedication. Baptism is not a rite of dedication. Baptism replaces circumcision (Col. 2), and has the same qualities as circumcision (entrance into covenant with God). It doesn’t replace John’s baptism. John’s baptism was not a Christian baptism. It was an old covenant purification ritual that existed hundreds of years before John came on the scene, and passed away with the close of the old covenant era. If John’s baptism was the same as Christian baptism, then John’s disciples would not have needed to be rebaptized. Yet they were.

Again give me another infant. All you can point is to one. Give me another name of a infant that had/have faith and know they have faith and what it means.

Why would anyone have to give you the name of another infant? Is there a certain numerical point in Scripture that has to be reached in order to establish a reality? If John could have faith as an infant, then ANY infant can have faith.

Where do you get the idea that faith is an intellectual quality? It’s a supernatural gift. Therefore, it doesn’t follow that it is limited by natural reason or intellectual capability. Scripture says that faith MUST be present for union with Christ. There is no salvation without faith. Unless you believe everyone with an intellectual restriction is damned, then both infants and the mentally disabled are capable of faith because it is a gift which God bestows.

 

[adrift]

I quess you didn’t read Mark 16:16 that I quoted which says, “Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved.” Also I quoted Acts 2:38-39 that says "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ…?
Yes the choice was made by the parents but the infant had no choice in the matter. It also says the a infant was presented to God not baptized. Jesus was presented when he was a infant not baptized unless you consider circumcision baptism then why did Jesus get baptized by John?

Well you guess wrong. As someone else mentioned, who is being talked to is adult converts. It does not address being raised in the faith nor does it address children in general.

Colossians Chapter 2
11: In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12: and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

 

[rev_kevin]

This is not a statement of chronology.

Jesus was presented as an infant in a rite of dedication. Baptism is not a rite of dedication. Baptism replaces circumcision (Col. 2), and has the same qualities as circumcision (entrance into covenant with God). It doesn’t replace John’s baptism. John’s baptism was not a Christian baptism. It was an old covenant purification ritual that existed hundreds of years before John came on the scene, and passed away with the close of the old covenant era. If John’s baptism was the same as Christian baptism, then John’s disciples would not have needed to be rebaptized. Yet they were.

Why would anyone have to give you the name of another infant? Is there a certain numerical point in Scripture that has to be reached in order to establish a reality? If John could have faith as an infant, then ANY infant can have faith.

Where do you get the idea that faith is an intellectual quality? It’s a supernatural gift. Therefore, it doesn’t follow that it is limited by natural reason or intellectual capability. Scripture says that faith MUST be present for union with Christ. There is no salvation without faith. Unless you believe everyone with an intellectual restriction is damned, then both infants and the mentally disabled are capable of faith because it is a gift which God bestows.

Faith is a reliance, loyalty, or complete trust in God, or a system of religious beliefs.So there is some intellectual quality needed to have faith. If you are incapable of faith like the mentally disabled and infants are don’t mean they are damned. I really think God is smarter than saying you who are incapable of faith because of a mental disabilty or because you are a infant that he will not accept them. Its like Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do. They don’t know any better and you think God is going to cast them away. Oh you of little faith. You know God will do no such thing.

The reason I asked for another name is because you can’t give me one, and all you can point to is John and that’s it one out of hundreds of millions and you can only give me one. Give me another name. John the Baptist was God appointed messenger to announce the arrival of Jesus. The angle said …for God has heard your prayer…and your wife will bear you a son…he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth…he will be a man with the spirit and power of Elijah. John was no ordinary man or infant.

How much do you remember as a infant? Did you make the choice to be baptized when you were a infant? How much do you remember of your second day here on earth? Do you remember having faith in anything as a infant? Did you know who God was as a infant? Did you know you had hands and feet as a infant? What did you do one week after being here in earth? Did you even know what faith was as a infant?
If you don’t know who Christ is then how can you have faith in him?
When is faith a gift that God bestows?

 

[rev_kevin]

**Why **did Peter baptize Cornelius’ household in Acts 10? Do you know for sure there were infants.
Or Paul the household of Stephanas in 1 Cor. 1:16.Do you know for sure there were infants.

How many children under the “age of reason” do you think they baptized when they did this?

I don’t know why don’t you tell me.

 

[LestWeForget]

I agree with the old to new testament baptisms, dude. Baptism is what? To inwardly and outwardly believe that Jesus is the son of God, confess Him so, and be faithful. Baptism means nothing to infants, it’s just like a bath, except they hate baths(Well, I did). So, babies that will not be faithful, and mentally challenged that will not be faithful, will eternally burn in hell forever and ever. I dig the color coordination, by the way. Also “including children”, most children are baptized around 12(that grew up without the idea of infant baptism), I’d call that a kid. And yes, “GUIDE” the child, not choose for him. Do you let your mother order chicken fried steak for you, when you don’t even know what it chicken fried steak is? Because you are an infant. And you might possibly wanted the baby back ribs.

Basically, at this point we are no longer reasoning. You bring forth letters and commentaries written after the last inspired word of God(Revelation AD 70), that point to infant baptism, I say what I just wrote and what implies.

This thread is now just me and elvis-what’s his face arguing(well, now everyone is. I had to edit this part). It was fun while it lasted, I enjoyed everyone else’s (name removed by moderator)ut. I learned what I could before it got so touchy.

Thank you.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Faith is a reliance, loyalty, or complete trust in God, or a system of religious beliefs.So there is some intellectual quality needed to have faith. If you are incapable of faith like the mentally disabled and infants are don’t mean they are damned. I really think God is smarter than saying you who are incapable of faith because of a mental disabilty or because you are a infant that he will not accept them. Its like Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do. They don’t know any better and you think God is going to cast them away. Oh you of little faith. You know God will do no such thing.

If you are asking for evidences from the Bible… i.e. show me an infant with faith; Show me an example of someone in the Bible who is regenerate yet does not possess faith in God? Is being an infant, or mentally disabled now an automatic ticket to heaven irrespective of their state as children of Adam and separate from God? Faith is a supernatural trust in God. It is not something that can be reduced to bare mental faculties. It is not mathematics, physics, or language. It is the result of the work of the Holy Spirit upon an individual’s heart and soul. The Holy Spirit is capable of working faith in whomever He pleases, regardless of their mental state. You are letting human reason and logic dictate Scripture.

The reason I asked for another name is because you can’t give me one, and all you can point to is John and that’s it one out of hundreds of millions and you can only give me one. Give me another name. John the Baptist was God appointed messenger to announce the arrival of Jesus. The angle said …for God has heard your prayer…and your wife will bear you a son…he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth…he will be a man with the spirit and power of Elijah. John was no ordinary man or infant.

So the Holy Spirit is incapable of indwelling any other infant than John? Did God choose Jeremiah when he was an infant, or an adult?

How much do you remember as a infant? Did you make the choice to be baptized when you were a infant? How much do you remember of your second day here on earth? Do you remember having faith in anything as a infant? Did you know who God was as a infant? Did you know you had hands and feet as a infant? What did you do one week after being here in earth? Did you even know what faith was as a infant?
If you don’t know who Christ is then how can you have faith in him?
When is faith a gift that God bestows?

What does anything I remember have to do with the action of God in Baptism?

 

[tweetymom]

I don’t know why don’t you tell me.

Never fear Rev he will try and tell you.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Never fear Rev he will try and tell you.

Baptism is to remove sin, and then we rec the Hold Spirit in Confirmation and get the seal of the Spirit ,A gift from the Father

 

[elvisman]

**Why **did Peter baptize Cornelius’ household in Acts 10?Or Paul the household of Stephanas in 1 Cor. 1:16?

Do you know for sure there were infants.

Do you know for sure there WEREN’T?
Why would Paul and Peter baptize ENTIRE households if Baptism was only for a believer? The household of a centurion like Cornelius would include spouses, children, servants and probably slaves - yet they were ALL baptized on the faith of Cornelius.

Just as in the case of Cornelius and Stephanas, infants are baptized to remove original sin by the faith of their parents. The Church Fathers knew this APOSTOLIC TRADITION well and that’s why they also taught it - as I already showed you.

How many children under the “age of reason” do you think they baptized when they did this?

I don’t know why don’t you tell me.

Ummm . . . I think I just DID (above).

It cracks me up when anti-Catholics who try to prove Sola Scriptura make the challenge:
**Show me a tradition that isn’t explicitly in Scripture. **
Then, when we show you guys things like infant baptism, you reject it.

Isn’t it time you face the fact that you are simply anti-Catholic and not Pro-Adult Baptism?

 

[elvisman]

I agree with the old to new testament baptisms, dude. Baptism is what? To inwardly and outwardly believe that Jesus is the son of God, confess Him so, and be faithful. Baptism means nothing to infants, it’s just like a bath, except they hate baths(Well, I did). So, babies that will not be faithful, and mentally challenged that will not be faithful, will eternally burn in hell forever and ever. I dig the color coordination, by the way. Also “including children”, most children are baptized around 12(that grew up without the idea of infant baptism), I’d call that a kid. And yes, “GUIDE” the child, not choose for him. Do you let your mother order chicken fried steak for you, when you don’t even know what it chicken fried steak is? Because you are an infant. And you might possibly wanted the baby back ribs.

Basically, at this point we are no longer reasoning. You bring forth letters and commentaries written after the last inspired word of God(Revelation AD 70), that point to infant baptism, I say what I just wrote and what implies.

This thread is now just me and elvis-what’s his face arguing(well, now everyone is. I had to edit this part). It was fun while it lasted, I enjoyed everyone else’s (name removed by moderator)ut. I learned what I could before it got so touchy.

Thank you.

**Lest - **
First of all - I don’t see the conversation you and I are having as an “argument”. You asked a valid, charitable question and I have answered charitably.

As for Infant Baptism - the only argument any of the Church Fathers had in relation to this was NOT whether they should be baptized - but on which day? Some wanted to wait until the 8th day (as in circumcision) but most said it should be done immediately.

Like I pointed out - the Old Testament Covenant was made between God and ALL of his people. Infant boys were circumcised on the 8th day after being born. Did they have a choice? NO - it was on the faith of their parents that they were circumcised and were raised in the Jewish faith.

It is the same thing for Christians. The Bible never contradicts itself - it ALWAYS compliments itself in regards to thde Old Testament (OT) and the New (NT).

Circumcision is the OT prefigurement of Baptism in the NT - that’s why Paul refers to it as the “circumcision of the heart”. But you make it sound like the child never has a choice after baptism. Yes, your parents choose for you - but you don’t have to remain in God’s favor. You can stray away and never come back. Look at Adolph Hitler - who was baptized as an infant and later fell away - FAR away.

 

[Dokimas]

The Catholic Church Baptizes infants. Show me the Biblical authority to do this?

Where does it say in Holy Scripture, “Do not Baptize infants”? Show me the Biblical authority NOT to Baptize infants?

Jesus Christ said in Matt 28:19, “GO, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…”
He did not say adults only did he? Did he ever put an age limit to receive Baptism?

Can an infant be a disciple?

 

[tweetymom]

Can an infant be a disciple?

No. Good to see you Doki. Gods Blessings for you and your family during Easter and all year long.