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Dokimas
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Thanks for your opinion.
A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.
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Dokimas
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I’ll let you choose.
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Dokimas
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The same place He uses the term ‘Trinity’.
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Dokimas
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The disciple knew Jesus had the Words of Life. The Bible is a collection of Words of Life. It’s very important for the growth of believers. Not to mention I’ve heard of people coming to Jesus by reading the Bible.It looks like rev would be totally LOST without the bible doesn’t he…
Matthew
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RockyRoad
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Correct…as recent popes have stated. While we may not know how God may do it…God can…and we are to have hope that He does. God is beyond our complete comprehension. Hopefully we’ll all know the answers to many questions someday.
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kepha1
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Protestants who reject infant baptism don’t care about the Fathers, but they care about their own man made tradition of a strictly “believers only baptism” that is not in the Bible. They don’t care that infant baptism is a Tradition from the Apostles that predates the canon of Scripture, and they have a definition of Tradition that is foreign to the Bible and they deny the role of Tradition in Judaism. Worse, they have abandoned the doctrine of Original Sin, so your question will probably get ignored.
I have another question that will get ignored.
When did the man made tradition of a believers only baptism begin? Is there any historical evidence to support such a belief that is independent of “new and improved” reformist bible interpretation? No. “Believers only baptism” is a man made doctrine.
Rev. Kevin: Mark 16:16 “Anyone who believes {only a person of the age of reason can believe, infants can’t} and is baptized will be saved…”
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.”
Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.
Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, “Repent and be baptized…” Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.
Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God’s covenant family includes children. The word “children” that Peter used comes from the Greek word “teknon” which also includes infants.
Luke 1:59 - this proves that “teknon” includes infants. Here, John as a “teknon” (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.
Rev. Kevin: Acts 2:38 “…Each of you must turn from sin and turn to God {only a person of the age of reason can turn from sin and turn to God, infants can’t} and be baptized…for the forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 2:38 refers to adults, and there is nothing in the verse that excludes infants.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church’s practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a “believer’s baptism” requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-III
Why do you make it narrower?
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Dokimas
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1. Incorrect. Most likely the whole paragraph.
2. We’re agreed. But with a small ‘c’.
3. Agreed again.
John 16:12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
4. Looking to see where the verses you told me to look in says what you said It says. I don’t see what you see. So we disagree.
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RockyRoad
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TobyLue
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Dokimas - A great big NO! It is not the opinion of Elvisman. It is a teaching that has been handed down by the Apostles BEFORE THE WORDS THAT STATE “ALL IN THE HOUSEHOLD WERE BAPTIZED” were canonized. But like Pharoah many continue in their obstinancy, because “well, its not in the bible, it’s not in the Bible”. Well nobody has been able to show where the Bible says that ALL TEACHINGS MUST BE IN THE BIBLE, or the the Bible is the Pillar and Foundationh of Truth. This teaching was and is to this day and will continue to be taught until the coming of Christ by the CC. Protestants protested against the Church in the 1500’s and they all went separate paths all teaching THEIR OPINIONS, just like YOUR opinion.
Please show us from the Bible that we can form our OWN OPINION as been the Truth!!!
On the contrary Nicea325 has to do no such thing. As been proven time and time and time ad naeuseum what the Early Church taught BEFORE THE WORDS THAT STATE “ALL IN THE HOUSEHOLD WERE BAPTIZED” were canonized it is up to you to prove that there were no infants in those households which you have yet to prove and go strictly by YOUR opinion and the Early Church Fathers AND THE CHURCH all are against YOUR opinion. So the proof rests on you.
How do you know this? Can you show us specifially in the bible that each and every book, chapter and verse is the true collection of the Words of Life? You would not know this except for the Catholic Church.
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TobyLue
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Dokimas
How many millions were brought to Jesus when there was NO bible? After we had the Bible, how many people could read? How many millions of pagan Aztec and Mayans were brought to Jesus by the priests from Europe and there were no bibles handed to each of those millions or told to go read their KJB and after they read it, formed their own opinion, believed and were baptized?
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Dokimas
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If the Bible isn’t important, why read parts of it each Mass? If It’s not important why are so many songs sung at Mass based on the Bible?
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Dokimas
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Thanks for your opinion. Have a nice day.
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TobyLue
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Dokimas
Which bible were these three thousand souls reading? It says that they “received his word” does it say anything that they fully understood? Probably not but they believed in faith and trusted the teachings of the Apostles. Then those disciples of the Apostles went out and taught the same thing as the Apostles which we know is true because of the letters of the Early Fathers that claim what they were teaching was directly from the Apostles.
Please show us some writings by the Church Fathers or by Protestants in the Early Church that the Apostles taught to baptize adults only.
Acts 2:41-2 " So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the APOSTLES’ TEACHING (emphasis mine) and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. "
Which bible were these three thousand souls reading? It says that they “received his word” does it say anything that they fully understood? Probably not but they believed in faith and trusted the teachings of the Apostles. Then those disciples of the Apostles went out and taught the same thing as the Apostles which we know is true because of the letters of the Early Fathers that claim what they were teaching was directly from the Apostles.
Please show us some writings by the Church Fathers or by Protestants in the Early Church that the Apostles taught to baptize adults only.
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TobyLue
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Again the best you can do is try to divert attention to the questions posed. YOu have failed to answer them with proof. Where did I say that the bible is NOT important, Please show me where I specifially stated such.
Thanks for the worthless rhetoric. When unable to answer just say whatever and call it a day.
Face it Dokimas, You have been stumped, and refuse to answer directly because you are unable. Sorry but it seems that you have been confused by facts and the Truth.
You are in my prayers
God Bless…
(end of posting and will go to other threads/forums)
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elvisman
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First of all - what do you think he meant by Water?
Secondly - what would God have done if a male Hebrew wasn’t circumcised?
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RockyRoad
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I realize I can’t answer for Doki…but my answer to the above question is Nothing
Circumcision is not required by the New Covenant. So…for Christ…it was never required.
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elvisman
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**First of all - Jesus and his Church *cannot *be separated. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus identifies this Body - the Church - with his very self. **
If you diminish the teachings of the Church - you diminish Christ himself.
Luke 10:16 - **"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." **
Secondly, what is a small “c” Catholic?
Lastly, if Jesus was not telling the Church that she would be guided to ALL truth - what do YOU think Jesus meant in John 16:12-15?
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elvisman
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I didn’t say that circumcision was required by Christ. It WAS required by the Mosaic Law.
**That notwithstanding - we leave what happens to unbaptized children to the mercy of God. We also leave the fate of unbaptized but willing adults to the mercy of God as well - just as we do those who are invincibly ignorant of the truth.
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Nicea325
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**It’s up to you to prove there were infants in those households. **
On the contrary,it is up to you to prove St.Paul didn’t include infants as part of a household. Since you are rejecting it and St.Paul makes it clear: I baptized the household, you need to prove he excluded infants.
On the contrary,it is up to you to prove St.Paul didn’t include infants as part of a household. Since you are rejecting it and St.Paul makes it clear: I baptized the household, you need to prove he excluded infants.
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