A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

[Nicea325]

Here’s from a previous post
**
Matt.28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word teach in Matt. 28:19 is translated from the Greek matheteuo which means to make disciples.
The word teaching in Matt.28:20 is translated from the Greek didasko which means to instruct.

So what Christ is telling us to do here is to go into the world and make disciples of all nations and then He tells us how we are to do that and that is by instructing them in all things I have commanded you and we are to do this before we baptise them. Why do you think this is. It would be my guess that because baptism is a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us. We have to know exactly who and what it is we are professing faith in. A baby is not capable of understanding the instructions necessary in order to become a disciple of Christ and therefore cannot be baptised.

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In Christ Richard

This is further displayed in Acts 8:12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

But I think the place were it really shows the manner of baptism and what is required for a person to be baptised is again in Acts 8: 26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Phillip tells us what is required in order to be baptised “If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest”**

**
Babies cannot do this. **

U-huh and neither can 35 year old who is incapable of reasoning like a ‘believers baptism’

Again,where does Scripture state baptism is RESTRICTED to adults only?

 

[Dokimas]

Here’s from a previous post
**
Matt.28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word teach in Matt. 28:19 is translated from the Greek matheteuo which means to make disciples.
The word teaching in Matt.28:20 is translated from the Greek didasko which means to instruct.

So what Christ is telling us to do here is to go into the world and make disciples of all nations and then He tells us how we are to do that and that is by instructing them in all things I have commanded you and we are to do this before we baptise them. Why do you think this is. It would be my guess that because baptism is a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us. We have to know exactly who and what it is we are professing faith in. A baby is not capable of understanding the instructions necessary in order to become a disciple of Christ and therefore cannot be baptised.

---

In Christ Richard

This is further displayed in Acts 8:12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

But I think the place were it really shows the manner of baptism and what is required for a person to be baptised is again in Acts 8: 26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Phillip tells us what is required in order to be baptised “If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest”**

**
Babies cannot do this. **

U-huh and neither can 35 year old who is incapable of reasoning like a ‘believers baptism’

Again,where does Scripture state baptism is RESTRICTED to adults only?

I’m not sure who’s chancing who around this mulberry bush. I do know I’m getting dizzy.

 

[guanophore]

Like me .

C’mon Tweety! I thought you gave up masquerading as a Catholic?!

 

[guanophore]

Matt.28:19-20

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word teach in Matt. 28:19 is translated from the Greek matheteuo which means to make disciples.
The word teaching in Matt.28:20 is translated from the Greek didasko which means to instruct.

So what Christ is telling us to do here is to go into the world and make disciples of all nations and then He tells us how we are to do that and that is by instructing them in all things I have commanded you and we are to do this before we baptise them.

No, Richard. It is true that a minimum of instruction is necessary before baptism, but baptism is considered a Rite of Initiation. In other words, that is how you “get in” and get started. In the days of the early church, only the baptized were permitted at the Liturgy. Teaching them to “observe all I have commanded” happens AFTER baptism. No one is expected to know those things before they are born again of water and Spirit.

In the Eastern Rites, during the Divine Liturgy when the non-baptized had to go out (since they were not permitted to be present for the celebration of the mysteries) the Deacon calls out “the doors, the doors!”. This is a remnant of the days when the unbaptized were escorted out. There is a form of this in the Latin Rite when the catechumens are escorted out after the Liturgy of the Word.

Why do you think this is.

You are filled with erroneous ideas because your faith tradition has been separated from the Apostolic faith for 500 years?

 It would be my guess that because baptism is a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us. We have to know exactly who and what it is we are professing faith in.

For adults it is. A profession of faith is made prior to baptism being received from the Church. I agree, adult converts must know exactly who and what the professed faith involves. That is the purpose of the Catechumenate.

A baby is not capable of understanding the instructions necessary in order to become a disciple of Christ and therefore cannot be baptised.

You will not find this modern American evangelical notion anywhere in scripture or in the history of the Church. It is nothing but a form of anti-sacramentalism.

 

[Dokimas]

I’m not sure who’s chancing who around this mulberry bush. I do know I’m getting dizzy.

oops: chasing not chancing. What a silly me!!!

 

[LionHeart777]

Dokimas:

If you were showed evidence that the Early Church practiced and/ or believed all of those things I listed, would it change your mind about who was wrong?

If the end result of a thread on each one of those topics would lead you to the conclusion that you and those who share your traditions are correct on each item, and that the ECF’s were wrong…would that give you pause? Would it be likely that those early Christians were wrong on all of those things, but that some interpretation of the Bible that was most likely passed on to you and from a later tradition is correct?

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Dokimas, I just don’t understand the sort of proof you want.

1. The ECFs support it, as did the church basically up to 300 yrs ago (including Luther and Calvin) that’s not enough for you.
2. Logical analytics based on what baptism means in the church - you won’t take it.
3. The Bible - worst case scenario: there is no mention either way which means you default to the status quo, infant baptism good

Otherwise, the bible has always included children as a member of the household which means that they were baptized as well. God invites the little children to be a part of his kingdom, and the way through that is baptism. Babies are perfectly capable of worshipping God: “Out of the mouths of babes and infants have I perfected Praise” (I’ve quoted this like 20 times with no response, well no surprise since you seem to have an uncanny skill of ignoring my posts )

 

[Nicea325]

No, you listen (reread) to what the statements were that I commented on. My EXACT the point was that the CC uses the Bible which shows It’s importance.

No need to re-read anything,because as a Catholic I do not need a non-Catholic telling me what is important to the church.

Then you choose to not understand what went on. Your choice

Nice try,but from discussing anything with you, it is clear you are the one who is blind. Your choice,no sweat off my back!

The Bible is extremely important. It’s the only collection of documents from the first church members the gives us eye witness accounts of Jesus.

Yeah,but Christianity didn’t evolve out of a book,but out of a person called Jesus. Correct.

The letters which turned into the Book is for those of us that never had the chance to see Jesus face to face that ( Joh 20:31) "… these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

Sorry,but you are taking that verse out-of-context and want it to prove your agenda.The reference: “…these are written…” is not refering to the Bible as the ONLY source of truth or the sole authority. Try again.

I’ll take eye witness accounts over any other accounts.

Typical non-Catholic.Disregard anything outside of the Bible as false.

Please show me where I said that. If you can’t (I never said that so you won’t be able to) then maybe you’ll think twice about making wild accusations. Maybe no

Wild accusations? :ehh: You must be going kooky or nuts or something because it is you alone who REJECTS the early church fathers. It is WHO who said that the CC history is false and I challenged you on more than occasion to prove me wrong.You cannot provide the so-called ‘accurate’ historical records you protray to have at your disposal. And why? Because there is no such records and you admitted it does not exist!

 

[guanophore]

Did Jeremiah leap in his mothers womb like John did? I never said the Holy Spirit didn’t dwell in infant’s. I said they can’t have faith because they don’t know what it is.

If you can’t remember being an infant then how do you know you had faith.

We can’t. We can’t really know if infants have faith, or not. The Apostles taught that baptims is the circumcision of Christ, so we obey Him.

 

[guanophore]

No offence but who cares what the ECF taught or did? Maybe you didn't catch my post.

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People who are narrow minded don’t care, people who prefer to persist in ignorance don’t care, people who are afraid of the truth don’t care.

The ones who do care are those who want to have intellectual honesty about their faith, and who want to understand what the Apostles believed and taught, as opposed to modern innovations.

 

[elvisman]

Guess there’s no point continueing with destortions of what I said. Have a nice day.

Match them up and I’ll explain. If you don’t bring them together, no wonder you don’t understrand.

**No – I’m *not *doing clean-up for you. You’re all over the place with non sequitors on this thread because you’re backed into a corner with no way out. **

You’ve been outshone and are drowning in a veritable tsunami of biblical, historical and logical evidence provided by myself and many others.

So, enough with the cryptic, curt responses and stick to the topic - and please, at least TRY to give concise, but lucid answers.

 

[guanophore]

Was Catholic now Baptist.
Show me one example in the Bible where a infant, child was baptized? The whole household does not count in this example for the word infant, child is not there.
Show me one example in the Bible where a adult was baptized?
What did they need to do inorder to be baptized?

No, rev kev, I don’t think you were Catholic. You may have been baptized and grown up in a Catholic family, but you do not understand the Catholic faith.

if you did, you would know that it was Catholics that produced the NT, and therefore, were not dependent upon it for the Teaching of the Faith. The faith is to be received from those to whom it was committed, not extracted some 2000 years after the fact from a small collection of writings.

The NT ws never intended to be a full compendium of the faith. We know baptizing infants is right because that is part of the Apostolic Faith. There are many aspects of that faith which are not explicit in Scripture.

Where in the Bible does it say that every practice of the faith must be in the Bible?

 

[guanophore]

It doesn’t matter whether I know I had faith. I also don’t remember having faith last night for about seven hours when I was sleeping. Did my faith cease to exist at that point? If God knows I have faith due to His action of granting faith, then that’s all that matters.

This is a very good point!

 

[rev_kevin]

No, rev kev, I don’t think you were Catholic. You may have been baptized and grown up in a Catholic family, but you do not understand the Catholic faith.

if you did, you would know that it was Catholics that produced the NT, and therefore, were not dependent upon it for the Teaching of the Faith. The faith is to be received from those to whom it was committed, not extracted some 2000 years after the fact from a small collection of writings.

The NT ws never intended to be a full compendium of the faith. We know baptizing infants is right because that is part of the Apostolic Faith. There are many aspects of that faith which are not explicit in Scripture.

Where in the Bible does it say that every practice of the faith must be in the Bible?

Look don’t tell me I was not Catholic. I understand the Catholic faith. 8 years in Catholic school, and about 1 year in siminary. I know about the NT and that the Catholics put the Bible together from collections of Scripture. There was no Bible in the begining so how can it say that faith must be in the Bible? Just because I disagree with some of the teachings of the CC don’t mean I don’t know about the faith.

 

[rev_kevin]

**I see you can’t answer a simple yes or no and how did you turn around apply my own words towards me? The household thing don’t bother me. That is all Catholics can go by to justify infant baptism from the Bible. **

Likewise,because you still have failed miserably to show me where the Bible restricts baptism to age-reasoning adults ONLY.

And your example of adults being baptized does not bother me at all either,because no where does it restrict it to them alone.And?

And that is all Baptists can go by to JUSTIFY ADULT-ONLY baptism or a ‘believers-only’ baptism. Oh and they must be adults ONLY.

I don’t believe I said ADULTS ONLY. I believe I said, age of reason. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia the age of reason is 7 or thereabouts. At that time the child can make the decision to accept Christ and be baptized. There are many Scripture that show that Adults or a person at the age of reason were baptized. Not one mentions infants. All you can point to is household. Give me one example of a infant being baptized in the Bible? Houseshold is not a example of a infant being baptized.

 

[guanophore]

You have not proven infant baptism from the Bible.​

No, but we don’t need to, either. Catholics have received the faith from the Aposltes, and it was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. We have no need to extract the faith from between the lines, because we know that our faith is reflected in the NT, but is not the source of it. Jesus is the Source of Cathlolic faith.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

I don’t believe I said ADULTS ONLY. I believe I said, age of reason. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia the age of reason is 7 or thereabouts. At that time the child can make the decision to accept Christ and be baptized. There are many Scripture that show that Adults or a person at the age of reason were baptized. Not one mentions infants. All you can point to is household. Give me one example of a infant being baptized in the Bible? Houseshold is not a example of a infant being baptized.

Is the only reason you reject infant baptism because it isn’t word for word in the bible? I can’t remember which logical fallacy that is. No wonder the atheists make fun of us Christians…

 

[guanophore]

I’d love to take a close look at your verses:

Appears there’s an order to the verses:

1. do penance (do infants do penance?)

This is something that requires intentionality.

-2. get baptized (it’s not clear if infants get baptized)

It is clear, Doki. Infants were baptized.

• 1. baptism is for the remission of sins (do infants have sins to remit?)

All who are born under Adam are born into original sin. As Jesus said,“he who does not believe is condemned already.” We are born into condemnation because we are fallen in Adam.

-4. receive the Holy Spirit (do infants receive the Holy Spirit?)

You betcha! Did the prophet not say “before you were in the womb, I knew you”?

Did not John the Baptist leap for joy in the womb when the HS filled him?

5

• . The promise (is the promise for anyone - those who do and those who don’t do penance?)

Yes. Some are not able to do penance.

• Looking at 1-4 3 out of 4 seem to be for those old enough to do penance, have sins needing remittence, receive the Holy Spirit. Logic then says, IMO, infants don’t need to be baptized - Their in God’s loving care until they are old enough to do penance, have sins to remit and able to receive the Holy Spirit.

The promise is a future promise: all those far off.

It appears that you are not distinguishing between original and personal sins.

It is true that when children are old enough to know right from wrong that they do need to be able to repent and ask for remittance.

 

[guanophore]

Yes it does matter if you knew you had faith. Faith is a belief, trust and a infant can’t believe because the don’t know what it is. You know what faith is even while sleeping because once you know what faith is its always active. Faith is a commitment of both mind and heart. A infant is not capable of commitment. Where does it say that God granted faith?

How is it John the Baptist could leap in the womb when the voice of the Lord’s mother was heard?

You are confusing faith with intellect. For those who have intellect, faith is not separated from it, but for those who do not, their faith is not hindered by their intellect. That is why Jesus said that the Kingdom was of such as those little children. Simple, non-rational, trusting.

 

[rev_kevin]

Is the only reason you reject infant baptism because it isn’t word for word in the bible? I can’t remember which logical fallacy that is. No wonder the atheists make fun of us Christians…

Can you answer the question?
Snod remarks is a cop out. Is that what you have to resort too?