A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

[guanophore]

Thank you for you dilligent work. Now we know what they believed (if the record is accurate). So, if my understanding is correct, they they misunderstood and visa versa.

Let me get this right. You are claiming that the disciples misunderstood the Apostles?

 

[rev_kevin]

How is it John the Baptist could leap in the womb when the voice of the Lord’s mother was heard?

You are confusing faith with intellect. For those who have intellect, faith is not separated from it, but for those who do not, their faith is not hindered by their intellect. That is why Jesus said that the Kingdom was of such as those little children. Simple, non-rational, trusting.

The John leaping has already been discussed. Once again you don’t answer questions.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Can you answer the question?
Snod remarks is a cop out. Is that what you have to resort too?

No, i just don’t understand! I’ve been asking this question for two days, but am generally ignored. Looks like snod remarks finally got an answer. Is that the only reason? Or, independently, are you arguing that it shouldn’t be allowed because infants can’t have faith? Whenever someone tries to prove that infants can indeed have faith on some level, your only answer is “it’s not in the bible”.

I’ll repost something I already wrote but that got no response from you, thank you very much

Would argue that we should exclude Children from the family of God? Do we make babies live outside of our homes, out in the cold ? “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God” (Luke 18:16) There is absolutely no room here to make an argument that children must wait until some magical age before they too can be included with full rights into the Church and at the altar table. Jesus was once an infant Himself. And Jesus was never separate from God, even in His mother’s womb.

The assumption behind the objection to infant baptism, that children cannot understand the faith, is that faith is a product of reason. Remember, “out of the mouths of babes and sucklings have I perfected praise”, God can work through little children. For the adult convert to the Church, intellectual consent is crucial, but faith falls flat if it does not go beyond individual reason. It falls flat because it is so individualized, exclusive, and self-centered. Our relationship with God is valid only if it is realized in communion with the whole Church, and children can accept that, they understand what it means to be a part of a family.

Our modern world treats children not fully human, or are at least treated less seriously than adults because they can’t think like we do (the basis behind abortion). Christ Himself sanctified every age as God-bearing, since He was as much the perfect Word of God as an infant as when He was a grown man.Their baptisms are as significant to them and to God as adult baptisms. Even if they do not cognitively understand what that baptism means, they are certainly capable of intuitively understanding it.

And don’t take offense at my words, please, I have a terrible cold which makes me kind of irritable.

 

[rev_kevin]

How is it John the Baptist could leap in the womb when the voice of the Lord’s mother was heard?

You are confusing faith with intellect. For those who have intellect, faith is not separated from it, but for those who do not, their faith is not hindered by their intellect. That is why Jesus said that the Kingdom was of such as those little children. Simple, non-rational, trusting.

Do you know why Jesus said that?

 

[rev_kevin]

No, i just don’t understand! I’ve been asking this question for two days, but am generally ignored. Looks like snod remarks finally got an answer. Is that the only reason? Or, independently, are you arguing that it shouldn’t be allowed because infants can’t have faith? Whenever someone tries to prove that infants can indeed have faith on some level, your only answer is “it’s not in the bible”.

I’ll repost something I already wrote but that got no response from you, thank you very much

And don’t take offense at my words, please, I have a terrible cold which makes me kind of irritable.

There is a difference between infants and children. Children are capable of having faith, infants are not capable. Are infants capable of anything except eating, crying, making messes in their dippers? Can a infant tell you what faith means to them or if they even have faith?
Nobody is excluded from God’s family.
The answer is no.
Now the CC says that the age of reason is 7 years old. At this age they come under the operation of ecclesiastical law. At this time they can observe the rules of the CC because they have reached the age of reason.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Your reply still doesn’t answer half of my argument:

1. Baptism is admission into God’s family, and it is unjust to leave infants out, just as they are not left out of our earthly family. You can’t argue that baptism isn’t necessary for people to join God’s family because it makes baptism useless.
2. We cannot establish an arbitrary age for children to be allowed into the church. I’m not catholic so I don’t know the reasoning behind the age of 7, but what if you have an exceptionally bright and intuitive child who is capable of having what you call faith before that. Also Jesus was once an infant Himself. And Jesus was never separate from God, even in His mother’s womb, babies should never be separate from God.
3. You say that infants cannot understand the faith, but that relies on the idea that faith is a product of reason. Remember, “out of the mouths of babes and sucklings have I perfected praise”, (like the 100th time I’ve mentioned that quote) God can work through little children. Infants can understand what it means to be a part of a family, they recognize and love their mother, so they can do the same with God.
4. Christ Himself sanctified every age as God-bearing, since He was as much the perfect Word of God as an infant as when He was a grown man. We cannot say one age group is inferior by virtue of not being capable of being baptized for this very reason.

 

[elvisman]

I don’t believe I said ADULTS ONLY. I believe I said, age of reason. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia the age of reason is 7 or thereabouts. At that time the child can make the decision to accept Christ and be baptized. There are many Scripture that show that Adults or a person at the age of reason were baptized. Not one mentions infants. All you can point to is household. Give me one example of a infant being baptized in the Bible? Houseshold is not a example of a infant being baptized.

Give me one example of a child at the “age of reason” being baptized in the Bible. For that matter - give me an example of an adolescent being baptized.

When Scripture says “household” - reason says that there were children of all ages.

 

[rev_kevin]

Give me one example of a child at the “age of reason” being baptized in the Bible. For that matter - give me an example of an adolescent being baptized.

When Scripture says “household” - reason says that there were children of all ages.

I believe I asked the question and you failed to answer it. I did not ask for a question from you.

 

[guanophore]

Do you mean Peter (see highlighted above)?

How do babies choose to remit their sins?

We disagree that babies receive the Holy Spirit.

I believe in original sin and that Jesus loves the little children so much they don’t need to be baptized until they can choose for themselves that they have sinned and want to repent.

Can you explain what happened to John in the womb, if he was not filled? Why does scripture say he would be filled even from the womb?

 

[rev_kevin]

Your reply still doesn’t answer half of my argument:

1. Baptism is admission into God’s family, and it is unjust to leave infants out, just as they are not left out of our earthly family. You can’t argue that baptism isn’t necessary for people to join God’s family because it makes baptism useless. Its up to you to join God’s family. You have a choice, you can or you don’t have to join God’s family. No one can make that choice for you.
2. We cannot establish an arbitrary age for children to be allowed into the church. I’m not catholic so I don’t know the reasoning behind the age of 7, but what if you have an exceptionally bright and intuitive child who is capable of having what you call faith before that. Also Jesus was once an infant Himself. And Jesus was never separate from God, even in His mother’s womb, babies should never be separate from God. Jesus is God, he can not seperate from himself.
3. You say that infants cannot understand the faith, but that relies on the idea that faith is a product of reason. Remember, “out of the mouths of babes and sucklings have I perfected praise”, (like the 100th time I’ve mentioned that quote) God can work through little children. Infants can understand what it means to be a part of a family, they recognize and love their mother, so they can do the same with God. No they can’t recognize being part of a family. The recognize people but they don’t realize they are part of a family.
   At what age did you remember being a part of a family?
4. Christ Himself sanctified every age as God-bearing, since He was as much the perfect Word of God as an infant as when He was a grown man. We cannot say one age group is inferior by virtue of not being capable of being baptized for this very reason.

We are all God-bearing, but not all accept God.
When you were a infant, were you able to accept God for yourself?
Do you remember, at what age you first heard the name of God?
Did you know faith as a infant? If so, how did you know?

 

[rev_kevin]

Give me one example of a child at the “age of reason” being baptized in the Bible. For that matter - give me an example of an adolescent being baptized.

When Scripture says “household” - reason says that there were children of all ages.

You said it “reason” you can reason because you are of the age to be able to reason. A infant can’t reason.

Repent your sins and be baptized. Only a person at the age of reason can repent.

Anyone who believes and is baptized. Only a person at the age of reason can believe in Christ.

She was baptized along with others members of her household. Why was Lydia’s household baptized after Lydia responded in FAITH to the Good News? Because baptism was a public sign or identification with Christ and the Christian community. Although all members of her household may not have CHOSEN to follow Christ, her home was now a Christian home. Lydia made a CHOICE to FOLLOW Christ and the members of her household HAD to do the same.

Each of you MUST TURN from your sins and TURN to God and be baptized…This promise is to you and your children…Those who BELIEVED what Peter said were baptized and added to the church, about 3000 in all. They joined with the other BELIVERS and DEVOTED themselves to the apostles teaching and fellowship…
Only a person at the age of reason including the children who can BELIEVE and TURN from their sins and TURN to God were baptized.

 

[peary]

The great comission says in Mark 16:16 that, “Anyone who believes {a infant can’t believe} and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to be to believe will be condemned.”
{a infant can’t refuse to believe nor can they accept to believe}
It is not the water of baptism that saves but God’s grace accepted through faith of Christ. Because of Jesus’ response to the criminal on the cross who died with him, we know it is possible to be saved without being baptized. Baptism alone, without faith, does not guarantee {a infant can’t have faith} that a person will go to heaven. Those who refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior will be condemned reguardless of whether or not they have been baptized.
Acts 2:38-39 says, “Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God {a infant can’t do this} and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise {meaning in the future} is to you and to your children…”
If you want to follow Christ, you must turn from your sins and turn to God and be baptized.
{a infant can’t do this} To turn from sin means to repent, changing the direction of your life from selfishness and rebellion against God’s laws. {a infant can’t do this} At the same time you must turn to Christ, depending on him for forgiveness, mercy, guidance, and purpose. {a infant can’t do this}
Now I have nothing against infant baptism if that is what you believe. I just don’t see it in Scripture, even as most will point out it says the whole household. A infant can’t make the choise to accept or not to accept Christ, to turn from sin, to change direction in their life, to believe in God. A infant just can’t do it.

So, in other words, the child goes to Hell?
Infant baptism has been practiced officially since the 3rd century, and probably prior to that time.
For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child’s unclean spirit based on the father’s faith. This healing is again based on another’s faith.
1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.
Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent’s faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.
Scripture may reflect what the Church was doing in the early days, not the other way around. We know what the Church was doing sacramentally in its earliest days because we have written records of it independent of biblical resources.

 

[dgdough]

The Catholic Church Baptizes infants. Show me the Biblical authority to do this?

Where does it say in Holy Scripture, “Do not Baptize infants”? Show me the Biblical authority NOT to Baptize infants?

Jesus Christ said in Matt 28:19, “GO, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…”
He did not say adults only did he? Did he ever put an age limit to receive Baptism?

Here ya go:

Acts 8:36-37

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…not if your family is Catholic…if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…not if you go to Church…if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…

Infants cannot believest in Jesus Christ with all their heart because they have no understanding. Depending on the child, they might not even have an understanding that they are a sinner until maybe 10-12 years old (surely there are some that know younger of course). Once they realize they are a sinner and that Christ died for them and bore all of their sins and the entire worlds sin and rose again on the 3rd day…then…thou believest with all thine heart and thou mayest…

Edit: Added Scripture Book/Chapter/Verse

 

[dgdough]

So, in other words, the child goes to Hell?
Infant baptism has been practiced officially since the 3rd century, and probably prior to that time.
For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child’s unclean spirit based on the father’s faith. This healing is again based on another’s faith.
1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.
Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent’s faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.
Scripture may reflect what the Church was doing in the early days, not the other way around. We know what the Church was doing sacramentally in its earliest days because we have written records of it independent of biblical resources.

You should really quote the actual scripture (even if it is from the NIV) because you paraphrasing it does nothing but anger God.

Here are a few that are pretty straight forward that children go to Heaven…says nothing about baptising them. Because you are ONLY baptised when you BELIEVE.

Deuteronomy 1:39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Isaiah 7:16: For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

John 9:41: Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

A child is blind to sin, but once that child comes to an age where the understand what is right and what is wrong (in God’s eyes)…he/she has already been condemned to Hell and will go there unless they:

Romans 10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

The word of God, especially those verses that deal with salvation and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ are VERY VERY VERY easy to understand. Until you can come to Jesus Christ with all of your faith you will be hard pressed to understand anything else in the Bible…because you don’t have the Holy Spirit inside of you:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

God Bless

 

[dgdough]

So, in other words, the child goes to Hell?
Infant baptism has been practiced officially since the 3rd century, and probably prior to that time.
For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child’s unclean spirit based on the father’s faith. This healing is again based on another’s faith.
1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.
Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent’s faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.
Scripture may reflect what the Church was doing in the early days, not the other way around. We know what the Church was doing sacramentally in its earliest days because we have written records of it independent of biblical resources.

What does Jesus removing an unclean spirit from a child because their parents have faith in Him have to do with baptism? Don’t believe man though, believe the Word.

Acts 2:41 (King James Version)

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12 (King James Version)

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 19:5 (King James Version)

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Colossians 2:12 (King James Version)

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Seems a lot talk about hearing and through faith. No ONE else can profess YOUR faith…it doesn’t even make sense.

Here is another, how do infants walk in the newness in life?

Romans 6: 4-5 says: “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”

It is a symbol of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection. When you are baptized you are identifying with Christ publicly and are testifying that your new life will be lived in Christ.

 

[JustaServant]

Here ya go:

Acts 8:36-37

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…not if your family is Catholic…if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…not if you go to Church…if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…

Infants cannot believest in Jesus Christ with all their heart because they have no understanding. Depending on the child, they might not even have an understanding that they are a sinner until maybe 10-12 years old (surely there are some that know younger of course). Once they realize they are a sinner and that Christ died for them and bore all of their sins and the entire worlds sin and rose again on the 3rd day…then…thou believest with all thine heart and thou mayest…

Edit: Added Scripture Book/Chapter/Verse

Please come to this thread and respond, thank you.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=405859

 

[elvisman]

You said it “reason” you can reason because you are of the age to be able to reason. A infant can’t reason.

Repent your sins and be baptized. Only a person at the age of reason can repent.

Anyone who believes and is baptized. Only a person at the age of reason can believe in Christ.

She was baptized along with others members of her household. Why was Lydia’s household baptized after Lydia responded in FAITH to the Good News? Because baptism was a public sign or identification with Christ and the Christian community. Although all members of her household may not have CHOSEN to follow Christ, her home was now a Christian home. Lydia made a CHOICE to FOLLOW Christ and the members of her household HAD to do the same.

Each of you MUST TURN from your sins and TURN to God and be baptized…This promise is to you and your children…Those who BELIEVED what Peter said were baptized and added to the church, about 3000 in all. They joined with the other BELIVERS and DEVOTED themselves to the apostles teaching and fellowship…
Only a person at the age of reason including the children who can BELIEVE and TURN from their sins and TURN to God were baptized.

So, when the Bible says that households were baptized - do you honestly think they left out everybody under the age of seven?
**Is that what you’re saying? **

**Why doesn’t the Bible say this? **
Why doesn’t it warn us that we need to be above the age of seven?

 

[elvisman]

I believe I asked the question and you failed to answer it. I did not ask for a question from you.

Nice dodge.
BUT - I didn’t fail anything.
We essentially asked the same question. I asked it to show just how preposterous yours was.

 

[elvisman]

Here ya go:

Acts 8:36-37

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…not if your family is Catholic…if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…not if you go to Church…if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…

Infants cannot believest in Jesus Christ with all their heart because they have no understanding. Depending on the child, they might not even have an understanding that they are a sinner until maybe 10-12 years old (surely there are some that know younger of course). Once they realize they are a sinner and that Christ died for them and bore all of their sins and the entire worlds sin and rose again on the 3rd day…then…thou believest with all thine heart and thou mayest…

Edit: Added Scripture Book/Chapter/Verse

Why, in all of the passages where households were baptized did they not say, “Cornelius and his wife and older children” – or the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:33) or Stephanas (1 Cor. 1:16)?

---

Since you’re such a literalist when it comes to the Scriptures, what do you make of the following passage that says God hated Esau. Paul even implies that he hated him even before he was born?
Mal. 1:3
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, but hated Esau; I made his mountains a waste, his heritage a desert for jackals.

---

Rom. 9:13
**And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue, not by works but by his call–she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.” **
As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."

---

In the following passage Paul is showing that baptism is "the circumcision of Christ" - “the circumcision made without hands”:
Colossians 2:11-12
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

---

NOWHERE** in the following passage does it warn against the baptism of children. As a matter of fact, he says to baptize the people – then teach them all that he commanded – much like you would a child:
Matt. 28:19-20
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

---

This passage shows that children are brought to Jesus by their parents – just as in Baptism. Protestants who reject infant Baptism are exactly like the disciples who rebuked them.
Luke 18:15–16
"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’"

---

Now – I will issue the same challenge I have issued about a dozen times now which nobody has answered, except for Dokimas (quite feebly, I might add):

---

Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant Baptism and how they not only supported it but practiced it?**

---

How about the early*** Reformers****** (Calvin, Luther, Zwingli) who also* believed in Infant Baptism?**

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore in black; Doki in color.

This is something that requires intentionality. True. Infants can’t intentionally give penance (First requirement to baptism.)

It is clear, Doki. Infants were baptized. Someone posted and I think it was you, that the NT doesn’t say infants are to be baptized so it’s at best unclear.

All who are born under Adam are born into original sin. Agreed. As Jesus said,“he who does not believe is condemned already.” ** Can infants actively not believe as was what Jesus was speaking about?** We are born into condemnation because we are fallen in Adam.

You betcha! Did the prophet not say “before you were in the womb, I knew you”? What did that have to do with the Holy Spirit being inside infants?

Did not John the Baptist leap for joy in the womb when the HS filled him? According to Jesus, John was Elijah.

5

Yes. Some are not able to do penance.

It appears that you are not distinguishing between original and personal sins. ** I guess appearances can be deceiving; I had no intention to deceive; I know the difference**.

It is true that when children are old enough to know right from wrong that they do need to be able to repent and ask for remittance. Finally something to agree on. That feels rewarding./