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Dokimas
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I’m not sure what disciple you’re speaking about. I was speaking about the ones that was in the post I quoted.
A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.
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Dokimas
Guest
Wrong reasoning, IMO.
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Dokimas
Guest
Makes sense it he was as Jesus said, Elijah.
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elvisman
Guest
You have made abundantly clear on this and many other threads that you cannot interpret Scripture very well, nor can you decipher when Jesus was speaking symbolically or metephorically.
Jesus was NOT saying that John the Baptist was Elijah in Matthew 11:13-14. The belief in reincarnation is strictly prohibited in the OT as well as the NT.
**Jesus was indicating that John the Baptist was in the same spirit as Elijah. **
John himself denied that he was Elijah:
John 1:19-21
**"And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, “I am not the Christ.” And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” **
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rev_kevin
Guest
Why would it need to warn you it clear if you open your mind.
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rev_kevin
Guest
NOt a dodge you do this all the time. Don’t like it when its done to you.Nice dodge.
BUT - I didn’t fail anything.
We essentially asked the same question. I asked it to show just how preposterous yours was.
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PeaceSerenity
Guest
It’s quite simple. If Jesus and the apostles thought that infant baptism was something that was explicitly bad or to be avoided, they would have mentioned it, for example “The household of x was baptized, excluding those too young to understand the faith” or something like that. Worst case scenario here: it doesn’t matter either way you go. There is no scriptural evidence to condemn infant baptism, so why even argue about it.
St. Polycarp was baptized as an infant, and that wasn’t a problem for anyone.
And, on the “household” argument, the word ‘household’ for any Israelite of the day included everybody in the household, children included, and it was the same throughout the Old Testament. Every time God established or spoke about His covenant with the House of Israel, it included the whole of Israel: men, women, and children. Noah’s whole ‘household’ was taken into the ark with him (Genesis 7:1); Abraham had his whole household circumcised (Genesis 17:23), and specifically his son Isaac when he was eight days old (Genesis 21:4); the whole household of every family was taken out of Egypt, and God’s institution of the Passover specifically included the children (Exodus 12:24–28). If the Apostles had taught that children were to be excluded from full inclusion in the covenant, such an innovation would not have fit the prophetic covenants which preceded the fulfilled covenant enacted through Christ.
St. Polycarp was baptized as an infant, and that wasn’t a problem for anyone.
And, on the “household” argument, the word ‘household’ for any Israelite of the day included everybody in the household, children included, and it was the same throughout the Old Testament. Every time God established or spoke about His covenant with the House of Israel, it included the whole of Israel: men, women, and children. Noah’s whole ‘household’ was taken into the ark with him (Genesis 7:1); Abraham had his whole household circumcised (Genesis 17:23), and specifically his son Isaac when he was eight days old (Genesis 21:4); the whole household of every family was taken out of Egypt, and God’s institution of the Passover specifically included the children (Exodus 12:24–28). If the Apostles had taught that children were to be excluded from full inclusion in the covenant, such an innovation would not have fit the prophetic covenants which preceded the fulfilled covenant enacted through Christ.
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rev_kevin
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Bill_Pick
Guest
The baptism of the New Testament makes a man a Christian, and baptism saves,
Acts 2:38, Rom 6:4, 1Pet 3:21.
The “type” of baptism in the Old Testament was circumcision, which made a man a Jew,
Gen 17:10-14.
Circumcision had to be done early in life, on the eighth day of birth.
“He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male throughout your generations…”
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Matthew_P_Muehl
Guest
Give it up rev… The hole your digging is getting deeper all the time!
You can’t prove squat… Since you are your own pope and authority It’s all your own opinion and your twisted interpretation of scripture.
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elvisman
Guest
Yes that is what I’m saying
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If you read the Bible with a open mind not closed minded you will see that it does.*
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Why would it need to warn you it clear if you open your mind.*
Open not just your mind, my spiritually prideful friend. Open your heart to Go and his message - not just your mind and you might just not feel the need to reject the children like the disciples that Jesus rebuked for doing so.
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elvisman
Guest
**Not at all. **
Like I told RevKev - open not just your mind but your HEART as well and you might see Jesus in an entirely new light.
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rev_kevin
Guest
What have you proven nada. The only thing you can say it “the whole household” which proves nothing. I never stated that I was my own pope or authority. See I don’t cover up child molestation like the pope did. So I consider calling me a pope as a insult. My opinon is only twisted because it don’t fall into what you believe.
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Matthew_P_Muehl
Guest
Now now now rev your getting nasty!
Lets face it you can’t prove infant WERE not baptized can you?
The early church fathers practiced this 350 years before the bible was put together!
What makes you right and them wrong???
Please enlighten all of us here!
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rev_kevin
Guest
Nasty begets nasty
Yes I have you just refuse to see it.
So just because something has been done for 350 years before the Bible was put together don’t make it correct.
What makes you right and me wrong? See it can go eather way.
There you go with the sarcasm again, like I said nasty begets nasty.
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PeaceSerenity
Guest
A little perspective, please. At worst, the bible doesn’t mention infant baptism. So why are we having this debate, it could go either way. By not mentioning it, we can assume it’s not important whether it’s done, not that it’s bad. There is no logical reason to oppose it on scriptural grounds, the only argument that the anti-s can make is that it parents have the choice to wait. You cannot scripturally argue that it should not be done.
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rev_kevin
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algebra
Guest
The of age thing makes no sense.
Baptism cleanses us of original sin.
It creates the potential for us to choose the gift of salvation.
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Nicea325
Guest
**What have you proven nada. The only thing you can say it “the whole household” which proves nothing. **
And you too have proven ZILCH! You believe because ‘adults’ were baptized it PROVES only adults can be baptized,especially when they make a ‘decision’ to receive Jesus. You make an assumption and want it to a standard. The text does not state ONLY adults are to be baptized.
Again,NO WHERE does Scripture RESTRICT baptism to persons who can only reason.
Again,no WHERE does Scripture FORBID or CONDEMN infant baptisms!
Again,there is not ONE example of a children being raised in a Christian household and being baptized only when he or she makes the ‘decision’ to receive Jesus.
Finally, I am shocked that you who claim to be an ex-Catholic ( I seriously question) should know Scripture does not teach everything must be explicitly taught. Where is the Trinity explicitly taught,especially about the three distinct persons of the Trintiy? Who taught us its complex nature? The CHURCH…EXPLICITLY and scripture…IMPLICITLY.
**I never stated that I was my own pope or authority. See I don’t cover up child molestation like the pope did. **
How do we know? Do we live with you 24/7 to confirm you do not cover up any crimes? And you believe Protestants or Baptists are free of crimes,you have another thing coming.
**So I consider calling me a pope as a insult. My opinon is only twisted because it don’t fall into what you believe. **
I do not what is more of an insult? Being the pope or someone who follows a church founded by mere mortals centuries later teaching novel doctrines such as adult-baptism only?
And you too have proven ZILCH! You believe because ‘adults’ were baptized it PROVES only adults can be baptized,especially when they make a ‘decision’ to receive Jesus. You make an assumption and want it to a standard. The text does not state ONLY adults are to be baptized.
Again,NO WHERE does Scripture RESTRICT baptism to persons who can only reason.
Again,no WHERE does Scripture FORBID or CONDEMN infant baptisms!
Again,there is not ONE example of a children being raised in a Christian household and being baptized only when he or she makes the ‘decision’ to receive Jesus.
Finally, I am shocked that you who claim to be an ex-Catholic ( I seriously question) should know Scripture does not teach everything must be explicitly taught. Where is the Trinity explicitly taught,especially about the three distinct persons of the Trintiy? Who taught us its complex nature? The CHURCH…EXPLICITLY and scripture…IMPLICITLY.
**I never stated that I was my own pope or authority. See I don’t cover up child molestation like the pope did. **
How do we know? Do we live with you 24/7 to confirm you do not cover up any crimes? And you believe Protestants or Baptists are free of crimes,you have another thing coming.
**So I consider calling me a pope as a insult. My opinon is only twisted because it don’t fall into what you believe. **
I do not what is more of an insult? Being the pope or someone who follows a church founded by mere mortals centuries later teaching novel doctrines such as adult-baptism only?
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rev_kevin
Guest
Elvisman
Here are the meanings of the verses you quoted
Malachi 1:3 “and I rejected Esau and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau’s inheritance into a desert for jackals.” Now the phraise “I rejested Esau” does not refer to Esau’s eternal destiny. It simply means that God chose Jacob, not his brother Esau, to be the one through whom the nation of Israel and the Messiah would come. God allowed Esau to father a nation, but this nation, Edom, later became one of Israel’s chief enemies. Because God chose Jacob and his descendants as the nation through whom the world would be blessed, God cared for them in a special way. but they rejected God after he chose them.
Romans 9:13 “In the words of the Scripture, I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” Was it right for God to choose Jacob, the younger, to be over Esau? In Malachi 1:2-3 the statement ‘I showed my love for you by loving your ancestor Jacob. Yet Esau was Jacob’s brother, and I rejected Esau’ refers to the nations of Israel and Edom rather then to the individual brothers. God chose Jacob to continue the family line of the faithful because he knew hin heart was for God. He did not exclude Esau from knowing and loving him. Keep in mind the king of God we worship. He is sovereign, he is not arbitrary, in all things he works for our good, he is trustworthy, he will save all who believe in him.
Colossians 2:11-12"When you come to Christ, you were ‘circumcised,’ but not by a physical procedure. It was a spiritual procedure–the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead."
In this passage, circumcision is related to baptism. therefore, some see baptism as the NT sign of the covenant, identifying the person with the covenant community. Baptism parallells the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and it also portrays the death and burial of our sinful old way of life followed by resurrection to new life in Christ.
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefor go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing then in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach thers new disciples to obey all commands I have give you, And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Here Jesus’ words affirm the reality of the Trinity. The disciples were to baptize people because baptism unites believers with Christ. Baptism symbolizes submission to Christ, a willingniss to live God’s way, and identification with God’s covenant people.
Luke 18:15-16 “One day some parents brought their little children to Jesus so he could touch them and bless them, but the disciples told them not to bother him. Then Jesus called for the children and said to the disciples, ‘Let the children come to me. Don’t stop them! For the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.’” It was cutomary for a mother to bring her children to a rabbi for a blesssing, and that is why these mothers gathered around Jesus but the disciples thought the children wer unworthy of Jesus’ time. But Jesus welcomed them, because little children have the kind of faith and turst needed for enter God’s Kingdom. Its important that we introduce our children to Jesus and that we ourselves approach him with a childlike attitude of acceptance, faith, and trust.
Here are the meanings of the verses you quoted
Malachi 1:3 “and I rejected Esau and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau’s inheritance into a desert for jackals.” Now the phraise “I rejested Esau” does not refer to Esau’s eternal destiny. It simply means that God chose Jacob, not his brother Esau, to be the one through whom the nation of Israel and the Messiah would come. God allowed Esau to father a nation, but this nation, Edom, later became one of Israel’s chief enemies. Because God chose Jacob and his descendants as the nation through whom the world would be blessed, God cared for them in a special way. but they rejected God after he chose them.
Romans 9:13 “In the words of the Scripture, I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” Was it right for God to choose Jacob, the younger, to be over Esau? In Malachi 1:2-3 the statement ‘I showed my love for you by loving your ancestor Jacob. Yet Esau was Jacob’s brother, and I rejected Esau’ refers to the nations of Israel and Edom rather then to the individual brothers. God chose Jacob to continue the family line of the faithful because he knew hin heart was for God. He did not exclude Esau from knowing and loving him. Keep in mind the king of God we worship. He is sovereign, he is not arbitrary, in all things he works for our good, he is trustworthy, he will save all who believe in him.
Colossians 2:11-12"When you come to Christ, you were ‘circumcised,’ but not by a physical procedure. It was a spiritual procedure–the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead."
In this passage, circumcision is related to baptism. therefore, some see baptism as the NT sign of the covenant, identifying the person with the covenant community. Baptism parallells the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and it also portrays the death and burial of our sinful old way of life followed by resurrection to new life in Christ.
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefor go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing then in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach thers new disciples to obey all commands I have give you, And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Here Jesus’ words affirm the reality of the Trinity. The disciples were to baptize people because baptism unites believers with Christ. Baptism symbolizes submission to Christ, a willingniss to live God’s way, and identification with God’s covenant people.
Luke 18:15-16 “One day some parents brought their little children to Jesus so he could touch them and bless them, but the disciples told them not to bother him. Then Jesus called for the children and said to the disciples, ‘Let the children come to me. Don’t stop them! For the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.’” It was cutomary for a mother to bring her children to a rabbi for a blesssing, and that is why these mothers gathered around Jesus but the disciples thought the children wer unworthy of Jesus’ time. But Jesus welcomed them, because little children have the kind of faith and turst needed for enter God’s Kingdom. Its important that we introduce our children to Jesus and that we ourselves approach him with a childlike attitude of acceptance, faith, and trust.
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