A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

[Masters_Servant]

and there goes that temporary peace, I knew it couldn’t last long

We will just blame you since you have the “Peace” in your name and you don’t seem to be able to control things here…shame on you for you failings…LOL Know I am just kidding and playing.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

We will just blame you since you have the “Peace” in your name and you don’t seem to be able to control things here…shame on you for you failings…LOL Know I am just kidding and playing.

Well, I try :crying:
lol well, do you at least feel serene, if not peaceful? (ignoring, of course, the fact that they mean the same thing… )
I’ll stop distracting the conversation now, you guys can continue…

 

[rev_kevin]

Well, I try :crying:
lol well, do you at least feel serene, if not peaceful? (ignoring, of course, the fact that they mean the same thing… )
I’ll stop distracting the conversation now, you guys can continue…

It feels good not to bicker back and forth and get along.

 

[Masters_Servant]

It feels good not to bicker back and forth and get along.

i sent you an email and let me know when you move to another thread that you think I may be able to contribute; this one is the difference between a religious teaching and something else.

 

[guanophore]

The premise is an error; the HS leads individuals that make up God's elect, which is the church and He does not mislead His own; the real question is who is the church?

I agree that God does not mislead his own, but it is evident that many of us have been misled. If this were not the case, there would be complete unity in the Body. Our factions demonstrate that we are not all being led by God. We have an amazing ability to BELIEVE we are following God, when we are actually following our own ideas.

Individuals: And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and ***the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. ***What is the church; the collective body of Christians, who are Christians - the elect, who are the elect?

While it is true that all individuals who are among the elect are members of the Church, if this is the only understanding one has of the nature of the Church, one has a very deficient perception of Church. This is only one aspect of what the Apsotles taught.

by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

I think the parable of the Prodigal son makes it clear that the children of God can get quite lost when they go off on their own. Many of us have done this with the best of motives, and still ended up in a pigstye.

Masters_Servant:

Notice that the HS that gives the testimony neglects that “so called” association with water;

This is not true. One must take all the scripture together in order to see a full picture, and understand what is written in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught. For example:

1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

An attempt to create doctrine by isolating verses from other verses that refer to the same subject is a grave exegetical error.

 t He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; ***He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.***

the true baptism is the receiving of the HS;

At least we are in agreement on this point. What you don’t seem to realize is that the Apostles did not separate the sealing of the HS from the water.

water has NOTHING to do with salvation unless of course God saves the OT saints differently than the NT saints,

Everyone is saved by grace, through faith. But at times, God works that saving grace through water.

1Pe 3:20 which aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight **souls, were saved through water: **1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

1Co 10:1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, how that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Sounds to me like God has been using water to baptize people for a long time!

which would in effect mean that Christ died for the NT saints, but not for the OT saints or God added some water to the NT saints, which would mean He changes, which means He is unreliable since He claimed He does not change.

God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He commanded us to be baptized for the remission of sins.

Again, nothing wrong with Baptizing an infant with water; they get wet , then they dry, but since they are unaware of the true purpose of water baptism. it means they are wet.

It is likely that most of those who passed through the sea, and the family of Noah who were saved through the water were unaware of the true purpose as well. I am sure that every infant circumcised in Israel did not know the true purpose of it.

Fortunately, salvation is a free gift from God, and we are not required to bring anything of ourselves, including our understanding.The fact that we are now saved through baptism is a mystery, and will be forever beyond the capacity of the human mind.

 

[elvisman]

I’m not wrong. I gave you what the words mean. You choose to pick only one meaning, The one that fits what you want it to fit. But in fact it also means brother and brother only also we get the word delphus which is from the womb, Its in the same definition as the word adelphos.

rev_kevin:

Correction you mean to use the word adelphotes not adelphos. Adelphotes means brethen, brotherhood.
rev kevin;6506585:

You can’t show me where it say baptize infants. You lose also.

Sorry, Kevin - you don’t have a linguistic OR historical leg to stand on.

**Don’t you think the Church has heard these arguments over and over again for over 2000 years? The weight of linguistics, Scriptural history (the Septuagint) and witnesses of the time are against you.

The plain truth is that Ach and Adelphos in the 1st century were already renederd as the same thing - thanks to the Septuagint.

**You lose - rather - your spiritual pride does . . . **

 

[adrift]

the true baptism is the receiving of the HS; water has NOTHING to do with salvation unless of course God saves the OT saints differently than the NT saints,

I wondered when we would get to this.

You have two points here.

1. Are the people of the Old Testament saved differently from the the New?
   Both are saved by the grace of the cross. That does not mean that there are not differences. Jesus said I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. So there must be a difference. For one, we are under a different covenant.
2. Does Baptism have anything to do with salvation?

1 Peter 3:
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism,which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

According to Peter, baptism saves.

According to Jesus, you will not attain the kingdom without it.

 

[adrift]

I am Catholic and I do not pretend anything to you or my husband. I do not go to please him

Still go to CC cause hubby does. .

 

[guanophore]

So what you’re saying is you are correct and I am wrong. Well at least we understand what you think.

No. What I said was that anyone who departs from the Deposit of Faith that was once for all given to the Church has, to some degree, departed from the Truth. How far one departs may vary. Truth is much beyond what you and I think, or how we might perceive the evidence. the Truth is above all of our perceptions and opinions.

   **Agreed that truth is not a matter of your opinion, your churches opinion or MY opinion.  **

The Church is not at liberty to have “opinion”. the Church has been charged with maintaining the divine revelation, and therefore is not privileged to formulate opinion instead. The doctrine of the faith was imparted by Jesus to the Apostles, and they entrusted it to their successors.

While the Church may publish opinions on current events, when it comes to the doctrines of the faith, this cannot be done. The Church is not free to depart in any way, for any reason, at any time from what was entrusted to her by the Apostles.

** No I don't believe God reveals anything to me differently that He told His disciples.  That's not the question, IMO.  The question is who understands God's intentions on the issue of infant baptism**?

Whether you realize it or not, that is exactly what has happened. You have reached the conclusion that God has revealed something to you (that baptism should not be offered to those who cannot repent and believe) that is opposite to what the Apostles believed and taught.

The Aposltes understood God’s intentions for baptism, and they left this understanding with the Church as part of the once for all deposit of faith.

 **And the church (including the CC) is made up of individuals. **

While this is a true statement, it reveals a very deficient understanding of the nature of the Church. The church is much more than the compliment of individual believers now on earth. It is this deficient veiw of the church that often makes it impossible for our separated brethren to accept the gift of infallibility.

through people who like you and me are prone to misudnerstanding.

No Doki. the Teachings of the Apostles are not preserved by a few fallible individuals. They exist in the Sacred Tradition of the Church, which is inspired and inerrant like the scriptures. God does not allow His revelation of Himself to be dependent upon the misunderstanding of a few individuals.

**Sounds like there must be much confusion in the CC if your last statement is correc**t. :D

Indeed, I think any modern poll will confirm this. Most American Catholics do not understand their faith, and most of them are in blatant rebellion against the teaching of the Church. I assert that the majority who call themselves “Catholic” are actually Protestants, but don’t realize that they have excommunicated themselves.

 

[guanophore]

Isn’t this what the forums are for?..LOL I do not really think is that funny; rather sad because it shows some know God and many do not; just as god said it would be, which is bitter-sweet. But God, if He chooses can change the few into many more…amen

The brothers and sisters here are all fervent and serious about their faith. The fact that we have disagreements is not because anyone here does not “know God”.

Such an attitude is contrary to positive dialogue.

 

[guanophore]

i think we can all agree that an infant that is water baptized is wet and will dry…do we all agree?

I would not agree to such a shallow and disrepectful attitude about baptism.

 

[Masters_Servant]

I agree that God does not mislead his own, but it is evident that many of us have been misled. If this were not the case, there would be complete unity in the Body. Our factions demonstrate that we are not all being led by God. We have an amazing ability to BELIEVE we are following God, when we are actually following our own ideas.

While it is true that all individuals who are among the elect are members of the Church, if this is the only understanding one has of the nature of the Church, one has a very deficient perception of Church. This is only one aspect of what the Apsotles taught.

I think the parable of the Prodigal son makes it clear that the children of God can get quite lost when they go off on their own. Many of us have done this with the best of motives, and still ended up in a pigstye.

This is not true. One must take all the scripture together in order to see a full picture, and understand what is written in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught. For example:

1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

An attempt to create doctrine by isolating verses from other verses that refer to the same subject is a grave exegetical error.

At least we are in agreement on this point. What you don’t seem to realize is that the Apostles did not separate the sealing of the HS from the water.

Everyone is saved by grace, through faith. But at times, God works that saving grace through water.

1Pe 3:20 which aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight **souls, were saved through water: **1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

1Co 10:1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, how that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Sounds to me like God has been using water to baptize people for a long time!

God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He commanded us to be baptized for the remission of sins.

It is likely that most of those who passed through the sea, and the family of Noah who were saved through the water were unaware of the true purpose as well. I am sure that every infant circumcised in Israel did not know the true purpose of it.

Fortunately, salvation is a free gift from God, and we are not required to bring anything of ourselves, including our understanding.The fact that we are now saved through baptism is a mystery, and will be forever beyond the capacity of the human mind.

Oh boy, here we go again another person who doesn’t know what salvation is. Just show me I am wrong by answering a simple question. How can I be saved according God of the Christian Bible?

When you use 1Peter and he tells you it is not the water that washes away dirt, you have to be blind to know he is trying to say he is specifically going out of the way to say he is not speaking of water baptism. The Ark was closed by who: God; AKA sealed by the HS and in god and escape the wrath through Christ, what is the wrath, the WATER…this is theonly example I will addresss in your post because if you can’t see something that simple; then where can one begin until you are visited by the HS, which you have not been based on this post and i’m tired of dealing with people pretending to know the word of God because the more they talk about it the more they prove the word of God when He said the natural man…ect. I do not condemn you; He works in a life on His timetable, but just don’t make the mistake of being self deceived, which if you honestly believe you have an understanding of the Word of God; you are self deceived at this moment in time and as mean as this sounds to you; my heart desires that you know God and more importantly that God knows you, but that is His call but He does give the Christian the ability to discern and you are easily discernible. You can take it two ways as offensive or as a challenge to reach out to God and pray He reaches out to you.

MS

 

[Masters_Servant]

I would not agree to such a shallow and disrepectful attitude about baptism.

Since I know what god mean by what Baptism is and you obviously do not, then I would expect you to disagree that when an infant get wet that he won’t dry

 

[Masters_Servant]

I wondered when we would get to this.

You have two points here.

1. Are the people of the Old Testament saved differently from the the New?
   Both are saved by the grace of the cross. That does not mean that there are not differences. Jesus said I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. So there must be a difference. For one, we are under a different covenant.
2. Does Baptism have anything to do with salvation?

1 Peter 3:
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism,which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

According to Peter, baptism saves.

According to Jesus, you will not attain the kingdom without it.

Alright; i will leave you all alone to your typical Bible study, which is general a “pool of ignorance” concerning what god has said and Peter said it is not water that washes away dirt; he is telling you that he is not speaking of water baptism. The water is the “JUDGMENT”, the ARK represents the sealing of the saved by God to escape His wrath…duhh!!
**
Good bye to all and to all good bye. I am going on a sabbatical for a few days or weeks to cool down; I hate to see the butchering of the Word of God to the extent that I see here.**

 

[adrift]

Alright; i will leave you all alone to your typical Bible study, which is general a “pool of ignorance” concerning what god has said and Peter said it is not water that washes away dirt; he is telling you that he is not speaking of water baptism. The water is the “JUDGMENT”, the ARK represents the sealing of the saved by God to escape His wrath…duhh!!
**
Good bye to all and to all good bye. I am going on a sabbatical for a few days or weeks to cool down;** I hate to see the butchering of the Word of God to the extent that I see here.

Since I know what god mean by what Baptism is and you obviously do not, then I would expect you to disagree that when an infant get wet that he won’t dry

You don’t demonstrate knowledge at all:nope: You KNOW what God means:bowdown: You have twisted what Peter said.

This prefigured baptism,which saves you now.

Yes he was speaking of Baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Oh boy, here we go again another person who doesn’t know what salvation is. Just show me I am wrong by answering a simple question. How can I be saved according God of the Christian Bible?

I think I answered this in the post above. Apparently you did not agree with my understanding.

 When you use 1Peter and he tells you it is not the water that washes away dirt, you have to be blind to know he is trying to say he is specifically going out of the way to say he is not speaking of water baptism.

We read it differently, don’t we?

Catholic read this passage in the light of the Teachings of the Apostles that has been preserved in the Church.

You are right, the purpose of Christian baptism is not to wash dirt from the body, although, when a person is immersed, some dirt may come off. The purpose of Christian baptism is to create a clean conscience before God. I think you and I will be in agreement that there is nothing any human can do, of themselves, to have a clean conscience before God. We can only stand before God with impugnity when we are washed in the blood of Jesus. Baptism is the manner in which this blood is applied to the individual.

 The Ark was closed by who: God; AKA sealed by the HS and in god and escape the wrath through Christ, what is the wrath, the WATER..

Yes. They were saved THROUGH the water, and Peter equates this with Christian baptism, where we are saved THROUGH water. The water itself does not save. It is the grace of God that saves us. In fact, the water is the manner in which we are “buried with Christ”.

.this is theonly example I will addresss in your post because if you can't see something that simple; then where can one begin until you are visited by the HS, which you have not been based on this post and i'm tired of dealing with people pretending to know the word of God because the more they talk about it the more they prove the word of God when He said the natural man.....ect.

This seems quite condescending.

If you are tired of having these kinds of discussions, why are you here? Did you expect to come to a Catholic forum and have everyone here agree with how you see things?

I do not condemn you;

I take it as such. You really know nothing about me, and to assume, based on one or maybe two posts I have written that I have never been “visited by the HS” seems awfully disdainful to me.

He works in a life on His timetable, but just don’t make the mistake of being self deceived, which if you honestly believe you have an understanding of the Word of God; you are self deceived at this moment in time

Oh, you say that to all the Catholics.

Does everyone who understands the scripture differently than you qualify as “self deceived”?

and as mean as this sounds to you; my heart desires that you know God and more importantly that God knows you, but that is His call  but He does give the Christian the ability to discern and you are easily discernible.

So, you discerned me easily, but you are not condemning me? What exactly are you trying to do?

You can take it two ways as offensive or as a challenge to reach out to God and pray He reaches out to you.

MS

You seem to have made an assumption that I am not reaching out to God. Is that part of your discernment too?

 

[guanophore]

Since I know what god mean by what Baptism is and you obviously do not, then I would expect you to disagree …

What is your goal here, Servant? What do you hope to accomplish?

Of course, everyone who participates in Christian baptism will get wet, and will dry off.

The idea that this is all that happens during baptism is the problem.

 

[guanophore]

Alright; i will leave you all alone to your typical Bible study, which is general a "pool of ignorance"

How would you know what a typical catholic bible study is?

Actually, I did not think we had really done any study? It seems that you just came swooping in and began telling us that we were wrong. How is that a “study”?

concerning what god has said and Peter said it is not water that washes away dirt; he is telling you that he is not speaking of water baptism. The water is the “JUDGMENT”, the ARK represents the sealing of the saved by God to escape His wrath…duhh!!

I really dont have a problem accepting this metaphorical rendering as well. Both understandings of the passage are valid.

Good bye to all and to all good bye. I am going on a sabbatical for a few days or weeks to cool down; I hate to see the butchering of the Word of God to the extent that I see here.

This sounds like a great idea, Servant. Perhaps, while you are cooling down, you can work on your charity and tolerance? If you do decide to return, maybe you will be able to muster an attitude that will support beneficial dialogue?

 

[Dokimas]

Or you speaking about this post of yours? Than I would have to say yes

Which one, Adrif? I’d like to look at it and if I’m being unkind I’d like to offer an apology. Thank you for your help.

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore in black; Doki in color

Please help me to understand this.If men can do infallible acts without divine intervention, then why did Jesus have to send the HS to lead into all truth? Bad people can do good deeds. Mofia people often give lots of money to the church.

If men can remember everything He has said, why would they need the HS to help them? Who said men remember? We don’t proving we are not infallible.

Where in scripture do you find evidence that men can act infallibly without supernatural intervention? I can’t nor did I say it could happen.

Guanophore:

Not the sin nature, per se. Concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin is one of the effects of the Fall. We are far off from God from the moment we are conceived because we are all born in Adam. Not until we are born again into Christ, the 2nd Adam, are we brought near to Him. Adam was the original sinner; we have a sin nature passed down from him. I’m not sure what the ‘argument is here’.

No, I am speaking about original sin. The sin nature is the result or the outcome of original sin. Until we are delivered from it, we are hellbound. See my last comment, please.

It is the main reason for the differences between those who have received the Apostolic faith from the persons authorized to preach it, and those who have attempted to extract the faith from the pages of Scripture. The NT cannot be separated from the belief system of those who penned it, and those beliefs are found in the Catholic Church. ** IMO, the Holy Spirit is the authorizer**. ** However, Paul cautioned us that not many should be teachers because teachers will be judged more severely for wrong teaching, leading people astray by their teaching. It’s one thing to lead ourselves astray, it’s another to lead others in the wrong direction.**

Please reciprocate by sharing yours. What water of washing do you think is referred to here? It’s a spiritual washing of the conscience by the Word and it is applied by the Holy Spirit. It’s NOT ritual. Anyone can have a ritual done to them. Only by faith will God deal with the conscience.