A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[wmscott]

Finally, let’s see what the Catholic Church teaches:

**The Catechism of the Catholic Church. **
.
Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 4

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.

Footnote References

23 Cf. Joel 2:12-13; Isa 1:16-17; Mt 6:1-6; 16-18.

CITED TEXT:

**Joel 2:12-13 **
“Yet even now,” says the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
and rend your hearts and not your garments.”
Return to the Lord, your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love,
and repents of evil.

**Isaiah 1:16-17 **
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.

Matthew 6:1-6
Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Matthew 6:16-18
And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Continued…

 

[wmscott]

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 5

1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, 31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity “which covers a multitude of sins.” 32

Footnote References

31 Cf. Tob 12:8; Mt 6:1-18.
32 I Pet 4:8; Cf. Jas 5:20.

CITED TEXT:

Tobit 12:8
Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold.

Matthew 6:1-18
Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:

Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

**1 Peter 4:8 **
Above all hold unfailingly your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.

**James 5:20 **
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

This is perspective folks, here fasting has been explained using Sacred Scripture, Biblical commentary, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

So I guess I have to ask Dokimas where do you come up with forced fasting stuff? I just do not see it, and if you really read all of this how can you tell me anything other than what was just put into perspective. To walk away with any other take is basically just arguing for arguments sake and anti-Catholic sentiments.

 

[KathleenGee]

Great posts, William…

I hope there are people who can step out of contentious and constantly seeking proof or perfection…and just see how God deals with humanity.

 

[LittleSoldier]

First off, let me say that the reason I’m here on this site is because a Roman friend of mine said I should come here, just to make sure what’s being presented isn’t broad and sometimes mistaken generalities about “Protestants”. I am not here to tell Roman Catholics who are disgruntled with the Roman Church to come to the other side because we have sunshine and rainbows. I think every person needs to come to their own realization about their faith and beliefs, and make decisions on their own.

With my preface in mind, I think it needs to be said, if someone Roman Catholic here is telling me, I can’t stand my Church tell me about yours. I’m not going to say, “Well I can’t do that because the Roman Church is the only true Church and by leaving her you are not accepting the fullness of truth and are placing yourself in great peril of sin and going to hell.” I happen to believe that that’s a load of horse puckey. It seems that my Truth as a Lutheran and your Truth as a Roman Catholic are not really all that different. However, most Roman Catholics find that my lack of belief or faith in the “Petrine Ministry” is tantamount to me renouncing Christ and my one way ticket to the dark abyss. And please don’t counter this with, “Well Christ said, 'Upon this rock…” I am not going to deny that isn’t in the Gospel. However, at the same time, I will be more than happy to say that I firmly believe that Christ would be mortified to see what “the successors of Peter” have done to HIS Church and in HIS name.

And here it is Ladies and Gentleman, the shoe on the other foot. Let me take the paragraph above and change some of the words and tell me how familiar this sounds. Any Protestants want to chime in?

"Why are the Roman Catholics here are still willing to lead a Protestant, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith or not, into apostasy. How Christian and how much Christian charity is being applied here to do such a thing. If Roman Catholics believe that Protestants are Christians, then why the need to prostulize**(sp)** them. To do this then the Roman Catholics must consider the Protestant Christian to be inferior to them. I find this a perilous and arrogant position to take. Is it a matter of pride and believing that your beliefs and faith is the only legitimate one? Do some of the Roman Catholics here really believe that the Lutheran (only since I’m Lutheran) Church and Protestant faith is inferior to yours, regardless of theological differences? Do you really believe that it is your mission to lead a Protestant, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith away from the Truth? How are your beliefs and faiths superior to Protestant beliefs and faiths? Remember we all have the same Bible and aside from some grammatical differences in whatever translation, the Protestant and Roman Catholic Gospels are the same.

I’m sure there are those out there that feel it is their mission to take away as many numbers from the Roman Church as they possibly can. I think that is completely wrong and arrogant. In case you didn’t get the point of the paragraph above, do your really feel that you are so superior to the Orthodox or the Anglicans or the Lutherans that you think you have THE TRUTH? I’m not finding charity or humility in that at all.

Christian charity? Really? If the best argument you have of making someone stay in the church is, “Young man if you leave this Church, you are going straight to hell,” I think the Protestant who is “luring” them away is practicing Christian charity.

You might have a point except for two things - this is a Catholic forum, not a Lutheran forum, a Baptist forum, a Muslim forum. And no matter what you beliefs are, the Truth is that Jesus founded the Catholic Church and I don’t think He lied when He said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[kingal86]

OK. Proselytize…

It is cool to come to CAF as a non-Catholic and use it to proselytize your own beliefs?

Isn’t that against the terms of use? The forums are part of a Catholic apologising/evangelising site after all, the primary purpose of which is to encourage people to convert to Catholicism.

 

[PRmerger]

Isn’t that against the terms of use? The forums are part of a Catholic apologising/evangelising site after all,** the primary purpose of which is to encourage people to convert to Catholicism.**

I don’t know that I would put it quite that way.

This is the Mission Statement for Catholic Answers:

[sign]MISSION STATEMENT
Catholic Answers is one of the nation’s largest lay-run apostolates of Catholic apologetics and evangelization. Its mission statement explains its purpose: Catholic Answers is an apostolate dedicated to serving Christ by bringing the fullness of Catholic truth to the world. We help good Catholics become better Catholics, bring former Catholics “home,” and lead non-Catholics into the fullness of the faith. We explain Catholic truth, equip the faithful to live fully the sacramental life, and assist them in spreading the Good News. [/sign]

 

[kingal86]

I don’t know that I would put it quite that way.

This is the Mission Statement for Catholic Answers:

We help good Catholics become better Catholics, bring former Catholics “home,” and lead non-Catholics into the fullness of the faith. We explain Catholic truth, equip the faithful to live fully the sacramental life, and assist them in spreading the Good News.

Oh, sorry. One of the main aims. I’d forgotten the other parts.

I remembered reading the phrase in bold “lead non-Catholics into the fullness of the faith” and interpreted it as the hope that some non-Catholics who read this site, forums etc. will come to believe that the Catholicism is the truth, and therefore as a logical result “go home to Rome”, i.e. convert to Catholicism.

 

[KathleenGee]

People come here for many reasons…my point was that contentious will never bring the meeting of the minds, there is the question that our CAF is being used for people to simply vent their anti-Catholicism…and i don’t want to spend my time as the sacrificial goat, as I have other things to do with my life…and we are indeed a Catholic site to teach others our beliefs.

To be Catholic requires not only faith but certitude of thought…Protesting, continual questioning isn’t always debating for the higher cause, it could be symptomatic of not being able to believe in anything and thus, not allowing your own life to go forward in the Lord.

There are Christians who do not need to come here, non-Catholics, who are living exemplary lives for the Lord.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh, sorry. One of the main aims. I’d forgotten the other parts.

I remembered reading the phrase in bold “lead non-Catholics into the fullness of the faith” and interpreted it as the hope that some non-Catholics who read this site, forums etc. will come to believe that the Catholicism is the truth, and therefore as a logical result “go home to Rome”, i.e. convert to Catholicism.

I suppose this is the same way in that a forum on Math tries to lead all of those interested into the fullness of Mathematical truth.

Now, if some people on this rhetorical Math forum come to the forum and deny the truths presented there, well, that is their right! But they’re not going to get very far in Math if they deny its truths. :sad_yes:

 

[KathleenGee]

Logical response, PR!

 

[PRmerger]

Logical response, PR!

shaw:

 

[mark_a]

When I was accussed of being poorly cathechised(sp) my comment was blame that on the good Sisters of Saint Francis and the Jesuits.

The Catechism states that it is the responsibility of the parents to see that their children are educated in the faith.

 

[eucharisteo]

The Catechism states that it is the responsibility of the parents to see that their children are educated in the faith.

So, like me, I not only point to the poorly catechized sisters, brother and clergy but also my own parents who kept me in a turmoil of nothingness to figure it out on my own.

Tell me why you believe you have the truth more than me and how, with my extensive bible study background you think your education is better than mine. It’s obnoxious and rude. It’s like an Aggie telling a UT graduate he’s[the Aggie] a better engineer.

 

[eucharisteo]

I suppose this is the same way in that a forum on Math tries to lead all of those interested into the fullness of Mathematical truth.

Now, if some people on this rhetorical Math forum come to the forum and deny the truths presented there, well, that is their right! But they’re not going to get very far in Math if they deny its truths. :sad_yes:

My subtle points as well.

 

[PRmerger]

So, like me, I not only point to the poorly catechized sisters, brother and clergy but also my own parents who kept me in a turmoil of nothingness to figure it out on my own.

Tell me why you believe you have the truth more than me and how, with my extensive bible study background you think your education is better than mine.** It’s obnoxious and rude. ** It’s like an Aggie telling a UT graduate he’s[the Aggie] a better engineer.

What are you upset about, eucharisteo?

What is so “obnoxious and rude” about saying that the primary educators of the faith are our parents?

 

[mark_a]

Tell me why you believe you have the truth more than me

What makes you think I think that?

and how, with my extensive bible study background you think your education is better than mine.

or that?

It’s obnoxious and rude.

But it is in the catechism.

It’s like an Aggie telling a UT graduate he’s[the Aggie] a better engineer.

I’m not sure how this relates to milking ducks.

 

[PRmerger]

What makes you think I think that?

or that?

But it is in the catechism.

I’m not sure how this relates to milking ducks.

The only explanation I can think of is that eucharisteo is responding to someone else’s post?

It seems he did that to me, and “corrected me” for commenting on a spelling error, when he later admitted he was speaking to Hisalone.

Perhaps that’s an explanation for the seeming nonsequitor??

 

[Hisalone]

The Catechism states that it is the responsibility of the parents to see that their children are educated in the faith.

Reminds me when as teenagers you would try to one up another but you would never cross the line and talk about a persons mother.

 

[PRmerger]

Reminds me when as teenagers you would try to one up another but you would never cross the line and talk about a persons mother.

Do you disagree with the Catechism’s statement that it is the parents’ job to raise up the child in the faith?

 

[KathleenGee]

Eucharisteo,

I have been in and out today…and have to take time to read larger posts. That is quite a testimony you experienced. And I can only imagine the deep psychic and spiritual suffering you must have went through with the defellowshipping. That must be extremely traumatic.

It looks like you have also gone through alot of healing and I pray that you will grow even more in the Lord and His sacraments, and experience ever more deeply the communion of saints.

If you haven’t, considering the suffering you have gone through, you may want to read the testimony/diary of SS Perpetua and Felicity and their martyrdom. It is so profound and you feel like you are right there with them. The testimony is online…I don’t have an exact link, but know there is a full story on www.bibleprobe.com…the martyrs tab and catechumens tab…Incredible!