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Dokimas
Guest
IMO, not a good analogy.
Lieing to God is sin. Eating meat on Friday is not (remember the context of this statement).
A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics
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Lieing to God is sin. Eating meat on Friday is not (remember the context of this statement).
D
Dokimas
Guest
Catholics were forced to refrain from eating meat or they’d be sinning.
D
Dokimas
Guest
Agreed; so why did the CC miss the verse?
D
Dokimas
Guest
Only catholics that are not headed to Heaven need evangelizing. That goes for protestants, Jews, etc.Indeed they are. I think you will be hard put to find anyone more careful about this than the Roman church.
All disobedience is sin.
Both. Is that why you think Catholics need to be proselytized?
It certainly does seem that you have difficulty understanding the difference between fasting for a period of time from meat, and mandating that every Catholic be a Vegan.
I have no clue what Vegan is so your statement is wrong.
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Dokimas
Guest
None; my wife and I have been blessed in many different services including masses.
P
PRmerger
Guest
I usually don’t, either. In fact, I made an especially egregious spelling error in this thread.I never poke fun at other people’s spelling. It can easily be thrown right back into your own face. Just a bit of precautionary advice.
But, really, when someone spells something incorrectly and* makes a special point to highlight their superior spelling,* it really is begging for a comment or two.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
MarkA…
turns out my own private impression was mentioned several times by others…but won’t go there here…I made my point at conclusion of reading…should read some historical points again…but reading it, as well as another thread on Sola Scriptura…I am making the right choice as a Catholic with all its inhumanity and bad people.
turns out my own private impression was mentioned several times by others…but won’t go there here…I made my point at conclusion of reading…should read some historical points again…but reading it, as well as another thread on Sola Scriptura…I am making the right choice as a Catholic with all its inhumanity and bad people.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Back to heretics and schismatics not going to heaven…depends…
Vatican II is updated spirit of the Church for times we live in…the people most endanger of salvation are Catholics who follow everything but do not have charity in their heart.
I would say the same of everybody else…when we separate from others…as Christ is before every human being…we are serving ourselves, we are not living in faith in Christ. If we hate others we are liars…and hateful schismatics, heretics and Catholics will not go to heaven…
So people better watch their heart instead of always trying to knock other churches down all the time.
Vatican II is updated spirit of the Church for times we live in…the people most endanger of salvation are Catholics who follow everything but do not have charity in their heart.
I would say the same of everybody else…when we separate from others…as Christ is before every human being…we are serving ourselves, we are not living in faith in Christ. If we hate others we are liars…and hateful schismatics, heretics and Catholics will not go to heaven…
So people better watch their heart instead of always trying to knock other churches down all the time.
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PRmerger
Guest
Perhaps. The CC has done an abysmal job of catechizing her flock in the past. :sad_yes:
But, now, as you could not quote any places in the Mass that are cited in Scripture, despite attending “many a First Friday vigil”, it is clear that you were indeed poorly catechized.
You do not know the faith that you left behind. Not your fault, most likely. Just have some integrity, Hisalone, and acknowledge this.
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benidict
Guest
hi dokimas. vegans dont eat meat, dont wear leather or fur. dont know if they own pets or not… imagine. a world where i couldnt own a pit bull…now that would be hell!
peace
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eucharisteo
Guest
Yes. I noticed it. I was particularly talking to Hisalone. He’s not a very wise man for someone who claims to know so much. You know I used to get picked on a lot but learned to play along with it because I recognized how silly I was growing up. I too was kept in the dark. So now with this unique family life experience of mine I believe I am uniquely qualified to speak to certain types of fundamentalist evangelicals. The problem is I can almost dictate what’s going on in their mind because I’ve been there. It is truly a miracle that I am Catholic now. In fact, it is truly a miracle my wife is also Catholics.I usually don’t, either. In fact, I made an especially egregious spelling error in this thread.
But, really, when someone spells something incorrectly and* makes a special point to highlight their superior spelling,* it really is begging for a comment or two.
Once we fell into a deep depression with my pending deployment while being uniquely ill and troubled the fact that I wanted to search for something that seemed more correct. I believed in the doctrine taught initially. But the problem is that each Church was so uniquely different from the others. If you know Max Lucado down in San Antonio. We were searching and tried the congregation he was part of but rejected their screening process because it wasn’t in the bible. Oh yes, I said it. I knew what I believed but none of the congregations seemed to get it. They all did things different that were not scriptural that crawled under my skin. I loathed the inconsistencies because I knew that it was a sign of them not being the “one true church” they claimed to be. I felt duped, but couldn’t go back home to the Catholic Church for various reasons I had yet to work through.
From there, I told myself “maybe I’m being too hard on people” so I relaxed a bit more and tried to deal with the new “progressive” churches in our area, ultimately moving north. during our 18 years of marriage we had experienced at least a church per year until each church showed us their true colors. I found congregations I could get along with but then my wife would get offended by the double standards…long stories. We’ve been “disfellowshipped” [Church of Christ term] twice, once because of a scandal involving gossip about us that was false and hate driven because someone we took in looked like she was stealing people’s identity out of desperation to live here in America. We discovered that her father is a retired General and President of a major company. They cut off her finances because she changed her major to Art and converted from Catholic to “Christian only”. Long sad story ending in my withdrawing from the elders oversight to find a new congregation. They disfellowshipped us anyway. Several months to a year later we visited after I graduated mainly to be nice and see some people. We were appraoched by one of the elders we used to like and he asked us “why are you here” as if we were trying to do something underhanded or scandalous.
The second time we were disfellowshipped was because my wife spoke her mind in an email addressing the preacher at the North Davis Church of Christ in Arlington, where I baptized my son in 2004. Days later we were told the elders wanted to “meet with us to discuss some things”. My wife, in her wisdom and experience because her father was an elder, told me 'NO", but wouldn’t explain other than it can’t be good. Naive and charity driven [the Catholic within] told her "no, its probably to see if I want to become more active in some ministry since they knew I wanted to become a preacher. NOPE. The preacher, who apparently took what she said [she tried to defend the poor unsuspecting Hispanic Catholics living in apartments from their planned proselytizing campaign] to heart and went to the elders with it April 2004, right after my father in law died and I baptized my son in that congregation upon him telling me he wanted to be baptized [believer’s baptism - I’m trying to figure out how to place in on her so others can see me baptizing my son]… But it turned out my wife was right. They used our “placing membership” there as an excuse to give us the 3rd degree ultimately leading both my wife and I into a major anxiety attack. I was trying to protect my wife and wanted to put those particular 3 men in a state of grace to meet their maker because of how ruthless they were to my wife. I was a soldier and they are lucky that I didn’t lose my temper to the point of snapping. We left, and moved our membership to a previous congregation a bit further to drive.
Fundamentalist are very very judgmental and condemning towards anyone that does not accept their authority and indoctrination. I know first handed as those of you who are now something other than fundamentalist would know as well. I understand people like Hisalone and feel for them but because of the vast amount of abuse dealt my wife and I over the years I would rather “feel them a bit too hard” in the head out of anger - an obvious sin and something I won’t do. It takes everything in my being to avoid becoming aggressive to them when approached. I smile and give them that dumb Catholic smirk because they wouldn’t get it anyway and I might just actually convert them and they would end up divorced because their family wouldn’t accept it. Truthfully, they just start babbling like a frantic child trying not to hear what your saying, even if its out of the bible. I know I’m the guy that rattles their faith. But all I did was study 33, going on 34 years of of my life to come to know just the glimmer of truth that opened my eyes like a miracle.
Please keep in mind that it is impossible to describe such a deeply intense conversion experience that lasted nearly 49 years so far.
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benidict
Guest
HOOAH!
that is one intense testimony. God bless you and yours. you may be out of the armed services, but once a soldier, always a soldier. and now its in Gods army. may your sword(the word) always be sharp. wouldnt have you any any other way eucharisteo! peace and love to you and yours.
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PRmerger
Guest
Right. As we have said before, Doki, there is nothing inherently sinful about eating meat on Friday. The sin lies in the DISOBEDIENCE.
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PRmerger
Guest
I bet there’s* hundreds* of thousands of different answers, Dokimas. Mathematically, that’s the possibility. Actually, it’s in the millions.
It’s a factorial equation, written as 28! (For there were 28 different “issues” I listed)
Example: 4! means 4 x 3 x 2 x 1
so 28! means 28 x 27 x 26 x 25 etc etc etc
So, to find combinations when order doesn’t matter, say how many combinations of 3 letters could be made from 10 letters, we use this formula nCr or 10C3.
However, we don’t have a certain # of ways, so we have to do this for all the numbers up to 28…
21C1
21C2
21C3
etc etc etc!!
Mind boggling!
Just what the Devil ordered, in my opinion!
(Thanks to my DD, who enjoys math problems such as this!
)
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, I am aware of that. My bad. I should have said there were no non-*Catholic *Christians at the time of those documents. Orthodox notwithstanding.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Perhaps what Hisalone means is, “If only that pesky ‘thou art Peter’ verse weren’t in Scripture it would have made my arguments so much more compelling. That and the ‘all ages to come shall call me blessed’ verse, too!”
And, I see from Hisalone’s posts that he is much more willing to *disobey *Scripture and continue to not refer to Mary as “Blessed Mary” than to appear to acquiesce to the CC.
While I admire his love for God’s Word, it is clear that he has chosen his contempt for *all-things-Catholic *over his love for God.
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benidict
Guest
I bet there’s* hundreds* of thousands of different answers, Dokimas. Mathematically, that’s the possibility. Actually, it’s in the millions.
It’s a factorial equation, written as 28! (For there were 28 different “issues” I listed)
Example: 4! means 4 x 3 x 2 x 1
so 28! means 28 x 27 x 26 x 25 etc etc etc
So, to find combinations when order doesn’t matter, say how many combinations of 3 letters could be made from 10 letters, we use this formula nCr or 10C3.
However, we don’t have a certain # of ways, so we have to do this for all the numbers up to 28…
21C1
21C2
21C3
etc etc etc!!
Mind boggling!
Just what the Devil ordered, in my opinion!
(Thanks to my DD, who enjoys math problems such as this!
you are amazing pr. just amazing. keep up the good work. peace
P
PRmerger
Guest
And this teaching was echoed and affirmed by Pope JPII. Again,*** it has been the constant teaching of the Church:*** outside the Church there is no salvation. It has not changed. It cannot change. It will not change. Praise God!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I am glad the Church made some rules for us to follow as a church, as a community, as Christ’s family to prove that we are one…I never had an issue having to abstain meat on Friday’s…just would forget…go to confession…never burdened with guilt.
Someone told me that when Bosnia was under Communist rule, people who went to church could go, they had the freedom to worship, but they would not get promoted into better jobs.
A Serbian Orthodox told me that during Tito’s time, they had all that they need as long as they didn’t criticize the government. The Serbs and Muslims did not worship on their holy days. But the people who continued to go to Mass on Sunday’s were the Catholics.
It is good the Church demands something of us. Demands make us strong. They don’t make us rich in this world…but they help us to take our stand with the Lord and to be faithful to Him before anyone or anything or even promotions. If that day should come, I hope and pray to be strong to still go to Mass without the promotion. Christ will sustain.
Someone told me that when Bosnia was under Communist rule, people who went to church could go, they had the freedom to worship, but they would not get promoted into better jobs.
A Serbian Orthodox told me that during Tito’s time, they had all that they need as long as they didn’t criticize the government. The Serbs and Muslims did not worship on their holy days. But the people who continued to go to Mass on Sunday’s were the Catholics.
It is good the Church demands something of us. Demands make us strong. They don’t make us rich in this world…but they help us to take our stand with the Lord and to be faithful to Him before anyone or anything or even promotions. If that day should come, I hope and pray to be strong to still go to Mass without the promotion. Christ will sustain.
W
wmscott
Guest
Sorry I have been away for a while, but I have been trying to keep up. But I want to weigh in on this fasting thing because it illustrates the point that without the guidance of the Church and the One “foundation and pillar of truth”, the fallible personal interpretations become all to prevalent.
This discussion on fasting is an excellent example of it. Here Dokimas cites 1 Timothy 4 as an example of fasting being a bad thing. The question put to him was “are you suggesting fasting is not biblical? What do you think?” his response is “I am saying forced fast violated 1 Timothy 4”. To be fair to Dokimas, this could be anyone who cites Sacred Scripture using their own personal fallible interpretations and personal brands of theology without any guidance or authority from the Church.
So let’s look at 1 Timothy 4:
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions
2 through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.
3 They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,
Now let’s look at the footnotes associated with this citation:
[1-5] Doctrinal deviations from the true Christian message within the church have been prophesied, though the origin of the prophecy is not specified (1 Tim 4:1-2); cf Acts 20:29-30. The letter warns against a false asceticism that prohibits marriage and regards certain foods as forbidden, though they are part of God’s good creation (1 Tim 4:3).
Further, let’s understand the definition of asceticism:
as•cet•i•cism
–noun
Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says St. Chrysostom[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in St. Irenæus, Epiphanius, St. Augustine, Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with St. Paul, who in the next chap. (ver. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. “You will object, (says St. Chrysostom) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid,” &c. St. Augustine, (lib. 30. contra Faustum. chap. vi.) “You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them.” We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine’s flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. (Witham) — St. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. (Challoner) — We may see in the earliest ages[centuries] of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See St. Clement of Alexandria, lib. 3. Strom.
Continued…
This discussion on fasting is an excellent example of it. Here Dokimas cites 1 Timothy 4 as an example of fasting being a bad thing. The question put to him was “are you suggesting fasting is not biblical? What do you think?” his response is “I am saying forced fast violated 1 Timothy 4”. To be fair to Dokimas, this could be anyone who cites Sacred Scripture using their own personal fallible interpretations and personal brands of theology without any guidance or authority from the Church.
So let’s look at 1 Timothy 4:
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions
2 through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.
3 They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,
Now let’s look at the footnotes associated with this citation:
[1-5] Doctrinal deviations from the true Christian message within the church have been prophesied, though the origin of the prophecy is not specified (1 Tim 4:1-2); cf Acts 20:29-30. The letter warns against a false asceticism that prohibits marriage and regards certain foods as forbidden, though they are part of God’s good creation (1 Tim 4:3).
Further, let’s understand the definition of asceticism:
as•cet•i•cism
–noun
- the manner of life, practices, or principles of an ascetic.
- the doctrine that a person can attain a high spiritual and moral state by practicing self-denial, self-mortification, and the like.
- rigorous self-denial; extreme abstinence; austerity.
Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says St. Chrysostom[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in St. Irenæus, Epiphanius, St. Augustine, Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with St. Paul, who in the next chap. (ver. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. “You will object, (says St. Chrysostom) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid,” &c. St. Augustine, (lib. 30. contra Faustum. chap. vi.) “You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them.” We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine’s flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. (Witham) — St. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. (Challoner) — We may see in the earliest ages[centuries] of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See St. Clement of Alexandria, lib. 3. Strom.
Continued…
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