M
mark_a
Guest
It’s also how they fight the guilt of the irregular marriage situation, abortion, and contraception.
Just calling it like I see it.
A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics
- Status
Just calling it like I see it.
M
mark_a
Guest
From personal experience, I know that more often than not that strangers asking these questions will be very quick to condemn me to “hayuhl” for being Catholic.
Maybe your approach is as abrasive and seemingly judgemental as many of your posts here on CA. Such as:
R
Rita88
Guest
First of all, I’m sorry, I haven’t followed all the posts… I found some of the colours difficult to read. So I just picked up on these points.
Bless you all!
Rita x
Hi Benedict - don’t worry I didn’t take any offense what so ever from your earlier comments. It was more a case of pushing the point out there so some other readers didn’t think that all Protestant churches are about is big screen tvs! I only class myself protestant out of extreme reluctance, and usually only on CAF. Many Catholics simply call all western non-RC’s “protestants”, so I sometimes feel obliged to answer under such a banner. I also adore more traditional services. I find so much space and peace in a traditional BCP service, or a eucharist with the (affectionately named) “smells and bells”. I enjoy many kinds of worship really, but I am more at home in reflective services. I used to work as a lay school chaplain with 11-16y.os so its making everything work to God’s glory in the end of the day!you are so right rita. forgive me. i just have a real love for the “older” more traditional way of doing things. i play guitar. i play heavy metal specifically. but when i enter a Church the last thing i want ot hear is a guitar. i really want to get away from myself, and everything that is outside. its just a strong personal taste. i have spiritual brothers and sisters who are in their 70s and 80s that are really into the more contemporary forms of worship, and they are Catholic. nothing wrong in and of itself i guess. just not my cup of tea. actually had to “shop” around, until i found a more traditional approach. no offence intended.my parents are Christian reformed, they used to have a beautiful cross on the wall behind the pulpit. no more. its sad. its been relegated to a tiny banner off to the side. i love how even jimmy swaggert is still preaching the way of the Cross, and not getting into so many fads of many congregations. i may disagree with him on certain parts of his theology, but that is not one of them. and you my friend are not a protestant. i am hoping that in our lifetime we will be able to take the Eucharist together. i love the Anglican/Episcopalian Church. yours and mine are only seperated by a slight degree. Peace to you and all the house hold of faith. the statue of Mary is wonderful. i also have lutheran friends that love the Blessed Mother.
Can I remind you though, that our faith is a journey. There is a reason why many baptisms occur early in faith for both the Anglican and RC Church. It is first and foremost an identification. A proclaimation of just what we are: Christians - we belong to Christ. BUT at that time it does not mean the candidate has a full and rounded theology of what it means to be Christ’s - it means that they (or their parents) have signed up on the dotted line, and hopefully picked up the scriptural map (bible) to help them find their way through their life. We all have probably had the occassions when we’ve only found a house/meeting venue with just minutes to spare before we are late… hence why even the theif dying on the cross, gets to His place in the kingdom.
But don’t forget that many protestant churches seek the same morality regarding life as you. You could flame me here, since I belong to the Anglican church and their stance on marriage is arguable from the RC point of view… but we do have very pronounced opinions on pro-life and morality issues.
Bless you all!
Rita x
H
Hisalone
Guest
Im unmarried living a celibate life in no need of contraception nor abortion.
You ever notice how sometimes facts get in the way of our false presumptions.
M
Major_Minor
Guest
I was raised Protestant and converted to Catholicism about 6-7 years ago. I don’t remember hearing any nasty things about the Catholic church growing up, but then again I don’t remember going to any churches that put any credence in the “chick pamphlet” level of cartoon theology.
I find it incredibly lame that some Protestants will not even inquire honestly and truthfully about the history of Christianity, but rather fall back on certain antagonistic Protestant opinions that even secular historians have proven to be based on false 17th century propaganda.
Being honest about your inquiry into Catholicism does not require conversion. It requires you being open to how God has worked through history. Jesus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church so if you think that there was this long period of no “real” Christianity then you are essentially of the opinion that Christ was a liar.
Seriously, if the only information you have about the Catholic church comes from the more hysterical side of Protestant literature it’s no different than thinking that you understand African American history because you’ve read KKK literature… or that you understand Judaism because you’ve read “The protocols of the elders of Zion”.
I find it incredibly lame that some Protestants will not even inquire honestly and truthfully about the history of Christianity, but rather fall back on certain antagonistic Protestant opinions that even secular historians have proven to be based on false 17th century propaganda.
Being honest about your inquiry into Catholicism does not require conversion. It requires you being open to how God has worked through history. Jesus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church so if you think that there was this long period of no “real” Christianity then you are essentially of the opinion that Christ was a liar.
Seriously, if the only information you have about the Catholic church comes from the more hysterical side of Protestant literature it’s no different than thinking that you understand African American history because you’ve read KKK literature… or that you understand Judaism because you’ve read “The protocols of the elders of Zion”.
R
Rita88
Guest
Major Minor;6693360 said:
B
benidict
Guest
yes, they did forbid the eating of meat on fridays. but you are confusing custom with dogma. a custom is something that can be enacted for a time. not eating meat on friday was a custom. priest being unmarried and celebate is a custom. these things can and have at times been changed. dogma however, ie the trinity, the immaculate conception. the real preasence, cannot be changed. when a custom is enacted it does have the force of Church law. but such a custom can be recinded. peace
R
runningdude
Guest
15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Mark 10:15
B
benidict
Guest
hi hisalone the worshippers had worked themselves up into a state of self hypnosis. yes the pole represented Christ death on the Cross. just as the ark represents Mary, just a paul told the Galatians i portrayed nothing but Christ and him crucified, while i was with you. also look at all the people that were healed from articles of clothing and such that paul was carrying. the dead man raised when he touched the prophets bones in the o.t. i could go on and on and on. look at all the symbology in revelation. paul also had no problem with the alter to the unknown god when he spoke to the forum. he actually used it to introduce the Gospel. im sure i can find many more examples. both from scripture, and from history my friend. peace
B
benidict
Guest
as am i. i applaud you my friend. blessings and peaceIm unmarried living a celibate life in no need of contraception nor abortion.
You ever notice how sometimes facts get in the way of our false presumptions.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
The fact that ‘externals’ (such as whether we wear robes or jeans, ‘recline at table’ to receive the Eucharist or not, what we ‘wear’ to Church, etc.) change is NOT ‘equivalent’ to doctrinal change,
The Church of AD 400 did not have the number of external church buildings we do today. The Church of AD 400 did not have people wearing the same kind of clothes we wear today. The Church of AD 400 did not have cheap vernacular Bibles available to its members the way we do today. So in those “external’ and nondoctrinal things, among others, obviously the Church of AD 400 differed from the Church of AD 500, AD 600, AD 700, AD 800, etc. etc.etc. Heck, Martin Luther’s first followers differed from his followers of today in those ‘external ways’ as well (unless you think that Martin Luther’s followers all still wear knee breeches (male) and long dresses (female), and that they have exactly the same number of churches, clergy, etc. and exactly the same ‘service’ in exactly the same places now as they did then. But the Church of AD 400 did not teach, for example, that God is a “duo” whereas today (appropriately enough) we teach that He is a Triune God (trinity). The Church of AD 400 did not teach that the Eucharst was 'just a symbol of bread” whereas today we teach it is Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. The Church of AD 400 taught the same truths we teach today.
M
Major_Minor
Guest
Sure, but I am referring to those Protestants whose understanding of the Church comes exclusively through those hysterical “Chick Pamphlet” type lenses. Even though the Protestant Churches I grew up in weren’t of this hysterical type I -have- encountered them and find them to be very seriously missing the mark (And thought so well before I converted.)
These types of believers wouldn’t even consider investigating an objective history of the CC much less allow the CC to explain itself. Their understanding comes from seriously distorted sources… that’s who I’m referring to.
I see you’re an Anglican and I very seriously doubt you are coming from that zone. you also have listed that you’re curious, but have no intention of converting. This is exactly the approach I mean… open inquiry doesn’t require conversion. But I DO think there are still many Protestants who need a deeper understanding of their roots.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
EXACTLY!
I was a fundamentalist too for many years. I loath that proselytizing that goes on. I used to do the same and am ashamed of my actions now and really would like to take a very agressive action against those that do it. It is so against the bible, not to mention the entire word of God. It is NOT Christ like.
And, fallen away Christians do not make the best cases against Catholics]
Christian = Catholic
Those that fail to accept once they know or refuse to look at the evidence that proves them wrong are either angry at God or someone in the Catholic Church because they want something other than what God requires from them. It usually means they couldn’t be a clergy, marry outside the Church, contracept, abort, have sex anyway they desire, won’t believe in a faith or moral teaching, preach, play in a band in worship, do like the what’s happening now hip church does, etc.
R
Rita88
Guest
I had never heard about “Chick Pamphlets” until this conversation… Is this the sort of thing you are refering to: chick.com/default.asp - I must admit I don’t come across these sorts of thing in the UK. I was reading this and it made my stomach churn: chick.com/reading/tracts/1058/1058_01.asp . Seriously, evangelism shouldn’t be a method of stipping away peoples dignity or belittling their beliefs. In this ‘tract’ it has stereotyped muslims - scarcely a good starting point!? If these are what you were referring to, I can see why they are so dangerous to fellow Christians (and non-Christians), and why you’d object to them!
I agree with you about there being many Protestants needing a deeper understanding (and the same will doubtlessly apply in Catholicism or any other denomination!) I’m reminded of the beautiful prayer of St. Anselm:
*Lord Jesus Christ,
Let me seek You by desiring You,
and let me desire You by seeking You;
let me find You by loving You,
and love You in finding You.
I confess Lord, with thanksgiving,
that You have made me in Your image,
so that I can remember You,
think of You, and love You.
But that image is so worn out
and blotted by the smoke of sin,
that it can not do that for which it was made,
unless You renew it and refashion it.
Lord, I am not trying to make my way to Your height,
for my understanding in no way equal to that,
but I do desire to understand a little of Your truth,
which my heart already loves and believes.
I do not seek to understand so that I can believe,
but I believe so that I may understand;
and what is more, I believe that unless I do believe,
I shall not understand.*
Praise be - God bless x
R
Rita88
Guest
Perhaps not angry; don’t forget that faith is very personal. It has as many interpretations as people. The ordination of women is just one of those examples. It is about trusting our own theological discernments and musings to God, and allowing Him to work through it. Certainly I have found in just the short 18 months that I have been studying theology for my degree that my understandings and opinions have changed several times: they’ve grown, adjusted and deepened. But I am fortunate that I have an enquiring mind and wonderful academic material and amazing lecturers at my disposal. Not everyone has this. It’s sometimes difficult for one ordinary believer to process what may be to others as an ‘obvious truth’. The theological education is so VERY different. I certainly do believe that the RC has a stronger legacy of public theological education as oppossed to the many protestant denominations.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
My college roommates were Catholic…they got into the charismatic movement, got dependent on the Holy Spirit to the point they were losing their ability to reason and parallel to that, began rejecting me…they left the Catholic Church. Two got married and divorced, all three never had a Christian relationship with me again…
I left the country, and in Europe was being prepared to work in a mission. The priests going to the same country were in preparation with me. I talked to them about what happened with my former friends, and they felt very bad about that…They were Italian and their country did not have all the divisions ours has among Christianity.
When coming home, I could see how Protestantism has gained inroads into Catholicism, our leadership so afraid to offend Protestants and afraid they would misunderstand our culture. The dissent and arguing and people not getting along also came about with misunderstandings of Vatican II.
After experiencing my Catholicism with fellow workers who grew up in Italy, seeing how rich and wholesome the devout are, the humanity and, inspite of that, the same human condition of individual Catholics having their own opinion, the Church more a family through the spiritual presence of Mary, the different feast days and how they lived out those special days…that I could see them living their faith more in Christ’s kingdom than here.
Now, of course, there is a revival within true Catholicism.
I am now more, much more Catholic than before, and could never leave it inspite of the troubles I witnessed both as a believer, and personally.
I truly believe there are forces of evil attached to the perceptions Protestant ministers put on people against the Catholic church…strange ideas of Mary, the saints, the celibate life, that blind people’s common sense…that the church has a right to develop its own culture and system of traditions just like people in ancient Israel did. The kingdom of Christ overlays the old Jewish religious practices.
Those who think the Catholic church is false should check out www.hebrewcatholic.org…and here it directly from Jewish converts of how they witness the Catholic Church as the fulfillment of Judaism…they say they are experience their Jewishness more now in the Catholic Church than without, how they love the Blessed Mother, and experience the communion of saints.
People who sincerely are seeking the truth should truly pray to the Holy Spirit to bless them with reason and fortitude to overcome the demons of false concepts indoctrinated by their false teachers.
I left the country, and in Europe was being prepared to work in a mission. The priests going to the same country were in preparation with me. I talked to them about what happened with my former friends, and they felt very bad about that…They were Italian and their country did not have all the divisions ours has among Christianity.
When coming home, I could see how Protestantism has gained inroads into Catholicism, our leadership so afraid to offend Protestants and afraid they would misunderstand our culture. The dissent and arguing and people not getting along also came about with misunderstandings of Vatican II.
After experiencing my Catholicism with fellow workers who grew up in Italy, seeing how rich and wholesome the devout are, the humanity and, inspite of that, the same human condition of individual Catholics having their own opinion, the Church more a family through the spiritual presence of Mary, the different feast days and how they lived out those special days…that I could see them living their faith more in Christ’s kingdom than here.
Now, of course, there is a revival within true Catholicism.
I am now more, much more Catholic than before, and could never leave it inspite of the troubles I witnessed both as a believer, and personally.
I truly believe there are forces of evil attached to the perceptions Protestant ministers put on people against the Catholic church…strange ideas of Mary, the saints, the celibate life, that blind people’s common sense…that the church has a right to develop its own culture and system of traditions just like people in ancient Israel did. The kingdom of Christ overlays the old Jewish religious practices.
Those who think the Catholic church is false should check out www.hebrewcatholic.org…and here it directly from Jewish converts of how they witness the Catholic Church as the fulfillment of Judaism…they say they are experience their Jewishness more now in the Catholic Church than without, how they love the Blessed Mother, and experience the communion of saints.
People who sincerely are seeking the truth should truly pray to the Holy Spirit to bless them with reason and fortitude to overcome the demons of false concepts indoctrinated by their false teachers.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Furthermore, in relation to the topic of this thread…if Catholics explain fully our beliefs but people stay on to vent and express their contempt of our faith, then you have to ask yourselves if that is truly Christian.
I find more fundamentalist Protestants focusing on the heroes and heroines of the Old Testament but deny all the saints who have lived extraordinary lives because of the faith in Christ found in the Catholic Church.
An old lady in a hamburger commercial would ask, “Where’s the beef?”
I ask, ‘Where’s the saints?’
I find more fundamentalist Protestants focusing on the heroes and heroines of the Old Testament but deny all the saints who have lived extraordinary lives because of the faith in Christ found in the Catholic Church.
An old lady in a hamburger commercial would ask, “Where’s the beef?”
I ask, ‘Where’s the saints?’
D
Danny_Clover
Guest
You’re aware that this very message board, run by Catholics, has an entire forum devoted to getting non-Catholics to join the Catholic church, right?First off, let me clarify that when I say “Protestants” I am referring to some not all “Protestants”. Many “Protestants” here are here to learn about Catholicism and what Catholics believe. They and are very respectful and exhibit great Christian charity. They do believe differently as is their right to, but in no way do they demean and disrespect another Christian brothers and sisters. They are here to learn. To them I say thank you and the Peace of Christ be with you.
Therefore, one of my questions is and what concerns me is that once you are here and learn what Catholics and the Catholic Church teaches and believes about leaving the Catholic Church once you have accepted the fullness of truth and then decides to turn your back on it. And knowing full well that a Catholic is placing themselves in great peril of sin.
Why are the Protestants here are still willing to lead a Catholic, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith, into apostasy. How Christian and how much Christian charity is being applied here to do such a thing. If Protestants believe that Catholics are Christians, then why the need to prostulize them. To do this then the Protestants must consider the Catholic Christian to be inferior to them. I find this a perilous and arrogant position to take. Is it a matter of pride and believing that your beliefs and faith is the only legitimate one?
Do some of the Protestants here really believe that the Catholic Church and Catholic faith is inferior to yours, regardless of theological differences?
Do you really believe that it is your mission to lead a Catholic, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith away from the Truth?
How are your beliefs and faiths superior to the Catholic beliefs and faiths? Remember we all have the same Bible and aside from some grammatical differences in whatever translation, the Catholic and Protestant Gospels are the same.
Finally please show me where the Christian charity is in leading a Catholic who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith away from the into apostasy.
I just need to try and understand your logic.
As with the Protestant brothers and sisters above who do respect the Catholic, I also wish the Peace of Christ be with you also.
Actually, the Catholic gospel and the Christian Gospel are radically different.
If you don’t believe that, then go to your priest and tell him you believe in the BIblical doctrine of imputed righteousness. Then go across the street to the Baptist church and tell the folks there that you believe one is born again when they’re baptised.
D
Danny_Clover
Guest
I’ve seen the motives and the sincerity of the Christians here questioned constantly. Frankly, I think it’s very disignenuous on the part of the Catholics here to start dozens of threads asking why Protestants do this, or why Protestants believe that, and then attack us for our answers.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Catholic understanding of Scriptures vs a Baptist understanding in some ways are the same…the belief in the Trinity, a basic sense of right and wrong, the desire not to water down beliefs for the sake of being popular…the inner presence of the Holy Spirit.
I would think if a Baptist forum were for discussion, I would think that going on there, I would be given the Baptist take, followed by discussion. If the discussion does not develop into dialogue but put-down’s I would leave.
But I don’t go on other forums, just try to share what either I know or my experiences of how I live out my faith.
I think the Baptists spend alot of time reacting to the Catholic Church whether through respectful disagreements to harder stands.
I would think if a Baptist forum were for discussion, I would think that going on there, I would be given the Baptist take, followed by discussion. If the discussion does not develop into dialogue but put-down’s I would leave.
But I don’t go on other forums, just try to share what either I know or my experiences of how I live out my faith.
I think the Baptists spend alot of time reacting to the Catholic Church whether through respectful disagreements to harder stands.
- Status