A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[Roy5]

As I’ve said previously, I am of mixed heritage. One of my French Canadian relatives (ancestral cousin) was Archbishop of Quebec. On my mother’s side the ancestors were early Puritans who came to Massachusetts.

   I am not interested in converting anybody. What I am interested in is seeing both Catholics and Protestants becaome more respectful of the faith of one another. Actually, millions are. I was chatting with a Protestant minister recently and asked him his view of Catholicism. "We agree to disagree," was his brief reply. I liked that.

   The trouble is that both traditional Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism have been dogmatic in their declarations. They are the only ones with the full truth. My counter-suggestion is that God is the only one with the full truth and the rest of ought to show more humility. With maybe a billion solar systems out there, how can any of us claim to have much ultimate knowledge. Is it in Psalm 139 we read: "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is too high and I cannot understand it"?

   Frankly, I treasure the freedom to think about, evaluate, examine, discuss, contemplate and in other ways assess this teaching or that. perhaps even change my mind now and then. For example, I was raised (like most Christians) to believe in Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, and other stories that I now regard as myths or fables or parables or legends - not lies, by the way. Adam and Eve was a primitive attempt to explain the formation of humankind. Noah probably recalled tales of a huge flood - tales that got twisted and exaggerrated over the generations. Etc. I certainly can't believe that God ordered Joshua to murder every inhabitant of Jericho or that he told Saul to slaughter every last Amalekite. How do such atrocities correspond to the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount and God as merciful and loving????

   I confess that I increasingly find several mainline Protestant denominations attractive - Episcopalians, Methodists, United Church and Christ, Presbyterians etc. Members of those denominations seem rather laid back when it comes to doctrine, certainly allowing individual thinking and different opinions. Some may believe in Mary's perpetual virginity; some think that she and Joseph probably had other children. Some emphasize the 'real presence' in the Eurcharist (not transubstantiation); others regard it as a community meal in honor of Christ. Some have formal rituals, others do not. I like the differences, which so many see as a weakness. I, for one, need intellectual freedom.

  But God bless all of his children, of every creed, color and country.

 

[wmscott]

First off, let me say that the reason I’m here on this site is because a Roman friend of mine said I should come here, just to make sure what’s being presented isn’t broad and sometimes mistaken generalities about “Protestants”. I am not here to tell Roman Catholics who are disgruntled with the Roman Church to come to the other side because we have sunshine and rainbows. I think every person needs to come to their own realization about their faith and beliefs, and make decisions on their own.

**This is where we agree. And is the point of my post. Sometimes I may not be as eloquent as needed to get a point across. As a convert, I have many family members who are Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopalian, Pentecostal, Non-Denomination, and so on. We discuss religion every so often. I will do all that I can to avoid arguments, and if it gets out of hand I will disengage. My position is and what I do is that is someone is “Spiritually weak” or “Disillusioned” I will talk with them, if they ask about my faith I will tell them, however I will not try to convert them. I will challenge them to research and explore their faith to try and figure out what is at the root of their dilemma. Pray, Pray, Pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and follow his will. I have no issue with someone being Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopalian, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational. As I have posted earlier the CC teaches that: CCC “819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. "Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” I have neither the wisdom nor the divine right to judge where a soul needs to be, it is Gods will where a soul needs to be. Do I wish we all were united in the Beautiful Catholic Faith…… A resounding AMEN. **

With my preface in mind, I think it needs to be said, if someone Roman Catholic here is telling me, I can’t stand my Church tell me about yours. I’m not going to say, “Well I can’t do that because the Roman Church is the only true Church and by leaving her you are not accepting the fullness of truth and are placing yourself in great peril of sin and going to hell.” I happen to believe that that’s a load of horse puckey. You were doing so good until this point, why the need insert an negative connotation when it could have been said in a softer tone. Maybe something like “I just do not happen to believe that way”??? It seems that my Truth as a Lutheran and your Truth as a Roman Catholic are not really all that different. However, most Roman Catholics find that my lack of belief or faith in the “Petrine Ministry” is tantamount to me renouncing Christ and my one way ticket to the dark abyss. And please don’t counter this with, “Well Christ said, 'Upon this rock…” I am not going to deny that isn’t in the Gospel. However, at the same time, I will be more than happy to say that I firmly believe that Christ would be mortified to see what “the successors of Peter” have done to HIS Church and in HIS name. I would not try to insult you and denounce your Beautiful Lutheran faith.

And here it is Ladies and Gentleman, the shoe on the other foot. Let me take the paragraph above and change some of the words and tell me how familiar this sounds. Any Protestants want to chime in?

"Why are the Roman Catholics here are still willing to lead a Protestant, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith or not, into apostasy. How Christian and how much Christian charity is being applied here to do such a thing. If Roman Catholics believe that Protestants are Christians, then why the need to prostulize**(sp)** them. To do this then the Roman Catholics must consider the Protestant Christian to be inferior to them. I find this a perilous and arrogant position to take. Is it a matter of pride and believing that your beliefs and faith is the only legitimate one? Do some of the Roman Catholics here really believe that the Lutheran (only since I’m Lutheran) Church and Protestant faith is inferior to yours, regardless of theological differences? Do you really believe that it is your mission to lead a Protestant, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith away from the Truth? How are your beliefs and faiths superior to Protestant beliefs and faiths? Remember we all have the same Bible and aside from some grammatical differences in whatever translation, the Protestant and Roman Catholic Gospels are the same.

I’m sure there are those out there that feel it is their mission to take away as many numbers from the Roman Church as they possibly can. I think that is completely wrong and arrogant. In case you didn’t get the point of the paragraph above, do your really feel that you are so superior to the Orthodox or the Anglicans or the Lutherans that you think you have THE TRUTH? I’m not finding charity or humility in that at all.

Christian charity? Really? If the best argument you have of making someone stay in the church is, “Young man if you leave this Church, you are going straight to hell,” I think the Protestant who is “luring” them away is practicing Christian charity.

 

[wmscott]

First off, let me say that the reason I’m here on this site is because a Roman friend of mine said I should come here, just to make sure what’s being presented isn’t broad and sometimes mistaken generalities about “Protestants”. I am not here to tell Roman Catholics who are disgruntled with the Roman Church to come to the other side because we have sunshine and rainbows. I think every person needs to come to their own realization about their faith and beliefs, and make decisions on their own.

With my preface in mind, I think it needs to be said, if someone Roman Catholic here is telling me, I can’t stand my Church tell me about yours. I’m not going to say, “Well I can’t do that because the Roman Church is the only true Church and by leaving her you are not accepting the fullness of truth and are placing yourself in great peril of sin and going to hell.” I happen to believe that that’s a load of horse puckey. It seems that my Truth as a Lutheran and your Truth as a Roman Catholic are not really all that different. However, most Roman Catholics find that my lack of belief or faith in the “Petrine Ministry” is tantamount to me renouncing Christ and my one way ticket to the dark abyss. And please don’t counter this with, “Well Christ said, 'Upon this rock…” I am not going to deny that isn’t in the Gospel. However, at the same time, I will be more than happy to say that I firmly believe that Christ would be mortified to see what “the successors of Peter” have done to HIS Church and in HIS name.

And here it is Ladies and Gentleman, the shoe on the other foot. Let me take the paragraph above and change some of the words and tell me how familiar this sounds. Any Protestants want to chime in?

"Why are the Roman Catholics here are still willing to lead a Protestant, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith or not, into apostasy. How Christian and how much Christian charity is being applied here to do such a thing. If Roman Catholics believe that Protestants are Christians, then why the need to prostulize**(sp)** them. To do this then the Roman Catholics must consider the Protestant Christian to be inferior to them. I find this a perilous and arrogant position to take. Is it a matter of pride and believing that your beliefs and faith is the only legitimate one? Do some of the Roman Catholics here really believe that the Lutheran (only since I’m Lutheran) Church and Protestant faith is inferior to yours, regardless of theological differences? Do you really believe that it is your mission to lead a Protestant, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith away from the Truth? How are your beliefs and faiths superior to Protestant beliefs and faiths? Remember we all have the same Bible and aside from some grammatical differences in whatever translation, the Protestant and Roman Catholic Gospels are the same.

I’m sure there are those out there that feel it is their mission to take away as many numbers from the Roman Church as they possibly can. I think that is completely wrong and arrogant. In case you didn’t get the point of the paragraph above, do your really feel that you are so superior to the Orthodox or the Anglicans or the Lutherans that you think you have THE TRUTH? I’m not finding charity or humility in that at all.

Christian charity? Really? If the best argument you have of making someone stay in the church is, “Young man if you leave this Church, you are going straight to hell,” I think the Protestant who is “luring” them away is practicing Christian charity.

**Summing up the rest here, maybe what I could say is that why can not a non-Catholic when talking with a Catholic that is “Spiritually weak” or “Disillusioned”, talk to them , if they ask about their faith, however not try to convert them. Rather, challenge them to research and explore their faith to try and figure out what is at the root of their dilemma. Pray, Pray, Pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and follow his will.

So my point is that a non-Catholic who knows full well what the CC teaches with regards to a Catholic leaving the faith for some other, why would you not challenge them to learn, know, and pray about their faith instead of just assuming that they need to leave the Catholic Church. The reason that I asked this question in the first place is that are those “Non-Catholics” that feel that the CC is ,according to some like HISALONE who has chimed in on this thread as “Unholy & Pagan” and feels that they need to prostulize them. Although there are many more that are not as malicious or disrespectful.

This goes to my point about Christian Charity, where is it in the way these folks are so malicious towards other Christians. Even if they felt that Catholics are no Christians, how is being disrespectful and malicious a display of Christian Charity?

As cited else where in this thread, is that “Apostasy” is not a correct term. I agree, I used the wrong term, my bad. **

 

[wmscott]

I’ve seen the motives and the sincerity of the Christians here questioned constantly. Frankly, I think it’s very disignenuous on the part of the Catholics here to start dozens of threads asking why Protestants do this, or why Protestants believe that, and then attack us for our answers.

The only person I have reacted negatively towards is HISALONE. His posts are disrespectful and malicious. Coming from a Protestant background I am respectful and understanding of each of our faiths. Look at post #2 and see how fast it was for someone here who is not here for Christian charity, rather their own personal agenda against the CC. Also look at post #31, and try to understand what the CC really teaches about non-Catholics.

 

[wmscott]

I’m going to stick my head on the butcher’s block a moment, and only reply to the original posting. I think, friend, it is two very different theologies which allow some protestants to embrace their Catholic (or other denomination) in Christ, and others to attempt to convert them.

The former sees God alive throughout all his creation, at work in every experession of His Church (be it Catholic, Anglican or any other - they are all His.) What matters to these people is that they rejoice in both their similarities and differences; marvelling in the way that God works differently in each one of us. After all, Christ created His Church. I believe He knew full well that it would divide just like the tounges. We may not understand what our fellow disciples are saying, but we marvel that they proclaim His work. **In general terms I agree and do rejoice seeing Christ in my Protestant brothers and sisters. Also see post #31 for what I believe and what the CC teaches. However I do not believe that Christ left a Church that would be divided. But that is just my opinion and now way reflects on your beliefs. **

The latter sees God as someone whom is explicitly defined through specific doctrine, holding that there is only one Truth of God. They set their hearts on proclaiming this truth: attempting to correct those who do not hold it, and set their eyes on the Lord. Some may do this because they also love you, and want you to know the fullness of God as they see it. Others may do this because they think it’s foolish not to believe what they do… but I prefer the concept of it being a loving action. **In my non-Catholic days I used to persecute the CC. Though not because I think it’s foolish not to believe what I do, I had little Christian Charity and lots of bigotry and hate. Funny how living in a spiritual wasteland drags you down. **

It is doubtless that God commissions us to The Truth for our neighbours sake, but we all see this as being different things.

I meant to ask though, do we really have the same bible? That is perhaps a different question to be argued upon… but my understanding is that we don’t. But now I’m being unintentionally awkward: yes, the fundamental understandings are the same. **Yes we have the same, yours may just be missing the Dutero’s. **

Only when we face God will we ever know if one denomination is inferior to the other. It’s His church, so it’s His call. We have no right to judge any one, as we can never fully discern His purpose!

Anyway, Blessings Y’all.

May God’s bless you with love, laughter and life ever after xxxx

H Rita thanks, my remarks in red. Peace.

 

[Hisalone]

the only person i have reacted negatively towards is hisalone. His posts are disrespectful and malicious. Coming from a protestant background i am respectful and understanding of each of our faiths. Look at post #2 and see how fast it was for someone here who is not here for christian charity, rather their own personal agenda against the cc. Also look at post #31, and try to understand what the cc really teaches about non-catholics.

post#2

if i believed that the catholic faith was the fulness of truth i would be a catholic. I believe the catholic faith has mixed the profane with the holy the pagan with what is true. What is charitable about leaving you in apostasy.

 

[Hisalone]

I’ve seen the motives and the sincerity of the Christians here questioned constantly. Frankly, I think it’s very disignenuous on the part of the Catholics here to start dozens of threads asking why Protestants do this, or why Protestants believe that, and then attack us for our answers.

Exactly

 

[KathleenGee]

Maybe for one thing, the fundamentalists are indoctrinated to hold certain ideas about Catholics…I heard on Fox TV last week that the Church was finally absolving Copernicus and giving him a decent burial, when in fact he lived before the formal time of Galileo, was not deemed a heretic, and was properly buried at his death while the woman commentator giggled away with the story.

That we don’t follow Scripture, that ours is a man made religion, we worship Mary, we use pagan feasts and symbols, that we worship Mary, that there are no saints, no purgatory, that we do whatever some old men with skirts tell us to do…to hardly any Catholics really believe or practice what we are taught…that we are superstitious, that we are not real citizens of our country but hail to the Pope, that we believe in empty rituals that mean nothing to God…

And yet our presence of education and the study of reason, care to the sick, the opposition to birth control whose effect on societies has been deadly and corrupting and our stand for the sanctity of marriage and human life, science, our social justice gospel, the secular recognition of our saintly people over a great period of time, our ancient historical roots…are deliberately kept out of the fundamentalist indoctrination.

I don’t trust other forms of Christian religions whose constructs are based on anti-Catholicism, because alot of time is passing disinformation, creating bigotry, and not helping people focus more deeply on the life of Christ.

 

[Redratfish]

Actually it is true.

Actually, Peter was the first Pope, Jesus said to Peter that Peter will lead Christ’s church. That Church is the Roman Catholic Church. So I beg to differ. Jesus established Catholic (which means worldwide) Christianity. Fundamentalist, Baptist, Lutheran, and other Christian denominations came afterwards.

 

[Danny_Clover]

KathleenGee:

Maybe for one thing, the fundamentalists are indoctrinated to hold certain ideas about Catholics

And Catholics, who have been conditioned to belived false ideas about Christians.

That we don’t follow Scripture

You don’t.

we worship Mary

You do. You just call it “veneration” instead of worship.

that we are superstitious

So then, what do you call sewing a brown scapular into a baby’s teddy bear so that the baby will be “protected”, or the idea of buring a statue in your yard so that you can sel your house?

And yet our presence of education and the study of reason, care to the sick, the opposition to birth control whose effect on societies has been deadly and corrupting and our stand for the sanctity of marriage and human life, science, our social justice gospel,

What, pray tell, is a “social justice gospel”?

the secular recognition of our saintly people over a great period of time, our ancient historical roots…are deliberately kept out of the fundamentalist indoctrination.

You’re right. That’s because those things all take a back seat to sound doctrine. What does it matter what your good works are if you preach a false Gospel?

I don’t trust other forms of Christian religions whose constructs are based on anti-Catholicism, because alot of time is passing disinformation, creating bigotry, and not helping people focus more deeply on the life of Christ.

And yet, your religion is based on anti-fundamentalism, spends most of it’s time passing disinformation about us, creates bigotry, and doesn’t present the Gospel of Christ to the lost.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Actually, Peter was the first Pope, Jesus said to Peter that Peter will lead Christ’s church. That Church is the Roman Catholic Church. So I beg to differ. Jesus established Catholic (which means worldwide) Christianity. Fundamentalist, Baptist, Lutheran, and other Christian denominations came afterwards.

Matthew 16

Peter’s Declaration about Jesus

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”

14 “Well,” they replied, “some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.

15 Then he asked them, “But who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18 Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”

20 Then he sternly warned the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah. [NLT]

Ok lets take the whole passage Jesus asked the disciples who do they think he was and they ansered. Peter said he was the Messiah. A statement of FAITH that was true. On that statement He gave Simon the name Peter, made a statement on this rock He will build His church and that he will get the Keys.

I can see this two ways one the Catholic position but there is the fact it was a statement of faith, faith can be The Rock of the church not a man.

The Keys did pass to him but again Jesus didn’t give any indication they were to go beyond him, I take this to mean Peter and only Peter had these authorities until his death then theKeys were lost to that event.

In either case since in the next passage Jesus denounced him as Satan, he denied Jesus before his death and Jesus did not like His Father set up any structure for a church or leadership. I don’t recall Him starting a sanctuary, giving the Apostles any orders to found a church or faith other than to spread the Gospel as His ascention and they could do that outside any faith structure you call the Catholic Church Jesus also taught against religious leaders, legalism in faith, money and seeking power all which flies into the face of the Roman Catholic faith and most protestants.

So as I can tell its just as valid to usethe church as a spiritual thing of God invisible living in communion with God andcasual contacts between each other with the Apostles simply as witnesses to Christ not superiors with higher station in the faith.

So I’m picketing Roman Catholic and Protestant churches and holy places telling them they are both wrong, its not I hate Catholics I think your just the greater of the corrupt Earthly faith systems called churches, denominations, clergy, theological schools and seminaries so they get more attention but I turn on Protestants to they never took the last steps and liberated the faith from the Catholic one.

 

[KathleenGee]

Danny, what you shared is so typical of the ‘doctrines’ taught by fundamentalist preachers and anti-Catholic propagandists to their followers.

A young man was recently ordained in this diocese who grew up in a belief system like yours…For him, it was stop and go because fears of such ideas would return and stop his progress. He is now so happy that he is both Catholic and a priest.

He found that all that he was taught by such teachers were false. It is like judging from appearances than what is really taught and believed.

There is a Catholic scholar, Dr. Scott Hahn, who also shared some of this kind of thinking, searched for the truth, and was amazed at just how much Scripture is communicated at the Mass. He has written a number of books and would be a good source for you.

I find that when people have been taught to hold such ideas against Catholics, it takes some time for them to understand and to trust. For myself, the CAF forum is not my forte to help someone come to the faith, but there are others here who can.

 

[benidict]

hi danny. Catholics ARE Christians. also, how do you interpret malichai 1:11? peace

 

[Danny_Clover]

Danny, what you shared is so typical of the ‘doctrines’ taught by fundamentalist preachers and anti-Catholic propagandists to their followers.

“Anti-Catholic propagandists”? Well, at least you’re sincere in your hatred for us.

A young man was recently ordained in this diocese who grew up in a belief system like yours…For him, it was stop and go because fears of such ideas would return and stop his progress. He is now so happy that he is both Catholic and a priest.

He found that all that he was taught by such teachers were false. It is like judging from appearances than what is really taught and believed.

And we have a man who was a Jesuit priest for many years, who is now a born again believer and is one of our chief deacons and apologists. He found that all he was taught in his lifetime of Catholicism was false.

I find that when people have been taught to hold such ideas against Catholics, it takes some time for them to understand and to trust.

Yeah, because everybody knows that anybody who disagrees with Catholicism couldn’t possibly think for themselves.

 

[benidict]

danny. what is your inerpretation of malichai 1:11? who is the prophet refering to? also will you acknowledge that Catholics are Christians? furthermore, i dont think kathleen has it in her heart to hate anybody. thats a strong accusation on your part. peace

 

[Danny_Clover]

benidict:

danny. what is your inerpretation of malichai 1:11?

I find that the NASB’s interpretation is pretty accurate.

In this passage, God is essentially rebuking Israel and stating that He will take the Gospel to the Gentiles. Now, this is the part where you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

who is the prophet refering to?

Israel/Gentiles.

also will you acknowledge that Catholics are Christians?

Yes, I will acknowledge that there may be some people in Catholicism who are Christians.

furthermore, i dont think kathleen has it in her heart to hate anybody. thats a strong accusation on your part. peace

And you don’t think her claims about us are “strong accusations”?

 

[Justin_Mee]

Really, I probably owe my soul to the Danny Clovers and the Hisalones of the protestant faith organizations. After 35 years as a baptized protestant, they finally drove me from the protestant faith and started my search for the truth. If it had not been for their ilk, I don’t know what would have happened to my soul. Thank you Danny and His. I owe you a lot. Now a Catholic for nearly 2 months and counting.

 

[benidict]

I find that the NASB’s interpretation is pretty accurate.

In this passage, God is essentially rebuking Israel and stating that He will take the Gospel to the Gentiles. Now, this is the part where you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Israel/Gentiles.

Yes, I will acknowledge that there may be some people in Catholicism who are Christians.

And you don’t think her claims about us are “strong accusations”?

actually i read her whole post that you responded to. it was more of an appeal for understanding than anything else. you left alot out when you responded. malichai 1:11 you are partially correct. For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the gentiles, and in Every Place there is SACRIFICE, and there is OFFERED TO MY NAME A CLEAN OBLATION; FOR MY NAME IS GREAT AMONG THE GENTILES, saith the Lord of Host. only one group fits this prophecy. it is the Catholic Church. this also encompasses the Anglicans and Orthodox. who at some point will be reunited with us. we all have basically the same view of the Eucharist. which many in protestantism do not share. this is the sacrifice and clean oblation that is mentioned. and i do thank you in your acknowlegement that there are Christians within Catholocism. i believe there are Christians within protestantism as well. many many Christians. peace

 

[Danny_Clover]

Really, I probably owe my soul to the Danny Clovers and the Hisalones of the protestant faith organizations. After 35 years as a baptized protestant, they finally drove me from the protestant faith and started my search for the truth. If it had not been for their ilk, I don’t know what would have happened to my soul. Thank you Danny and His. I owe you a lot. Now a Catholic for nearly 2 months and counting.

1 John 2:19 comes to mind.

 

[Danny_Clover]

benidict:

malichai 1:11 you are partially correct.

Gee, didn’t see that one coming.

only one group fits this prophecy. it is the Catholic Church.

If you say so. Thanks, but I think I’ll stick with the correct understanding of that verse.

i do thank you in your acknowlegement that there are Christians within Catholocism.

No problem. Just as I believe that there may be some individuals in the Mormon religion who may be Christians in spite of Mormon doctrine, so I believe that there may be some in the Cathoilc Church who are Christians in spite of Catholic doctrine.