A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[guanophore]

Tell me please, which is the correct CC understanding: it is sinful to eat meat on Fridays vs it is no longer sin to eat meat on Fridays?

The Catholic teaching is that all disobedience is sin. The guidelines around fasting are disciplines, not doctrines. They vary according to Rite and bishopric. It is the duty of the faithful to follow the direction of their leaders. Is there ever a time when observing a rule of fast out of obedience would harm a person?

• Which catholics represent the correct teachings of God: charismatic catholics or non-charismatic catholics?

I doubt any of them are correct all the time. The Teachings of the Apostles are preserved infallibly in the Church. Those who embrace them and teach them are the ones who represent the correct doctrine. Those who depart from it do not. It does not matter what group they are in.​

• We are brothers and sisters in Christ NOT because of the church we belong to but because we’ve been adopted into the Family of God through the Blood of Jesus.

There is only One Church, One Body, and One Family of God. We cannot belong to Christ without also becoming members one of another. The two are not separable.

 

[guanophore]

-.
You must assume that today’s CC is just like the one back in the 4th century.

The commandment to obey our leaders has not changed.​

-.BTW, I became a Christian without the CC. I understood Jesus is God in human Flesh. I understood He died in my place paying for my sins and paying the penalty for my sins. I understood Jesus was raised from the dead. All this without the CC but NOT without the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart. (That’s not to say that God did not use the CC in history. I’m sure He did. However, that’s a different story. God uses as He wills and His own way.)

No Doki, you did not. In fact, all these things that you have experienced are the direct result of the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside the Church, and all who come to know HIm do so because of how He reveals Himself through her. This is why He built the Church, so that He could manifest His glory through her.

 

[eucharisteo]

You are assuming the CC it 100% accurate. I admit I am not always accurate.

Tell me please, which is the correct CC understanding: it is sinful to eat meat on Fridays vs it is no longer sin to eat meat on Fridays? Which catholics represent the correct teachings of God: charismatic catholics or non-charismatic catholics?​

We are brothers and sisters in Christ NOT because of the church we belong to but because we’ve been adopted into the Family of God through the Blood of Jesus.

Abstaining from meats on Fridays is a discipline, like celibacy, and can and in some situations dispensed. What you said as a catechized Catholic makes not sense. But I do understand because I get frustrated with Catholics that don’t understand it either, especially the one’s that leave the Church and then try to tell us what we really believe by saying it all wrong, like Hisalone.

Further, there are many spiritualities within the Church, however there is only one teaching uniformly believed. But that does not mean that all Catholics accept or practice that which they are supposed to. The reason the Church teaches it is because it is objective truth, not opinion. A study of the ancient church and the understanding of that which has been passed on to us since Christ defines what is truth. Without the Church, there would be no Holy Spirit to guide the Church, defined in the scriptures. Not in the mood for BCV tonight.

Yes, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, yet we non-Catholic Christians are separated brethren for the mere fact that they do not accept the truth given by Christ to the Church, whether by their own fault of other reasons. We are washed by the blood of the Lamb when we are baptized, yet we must continue to work our way through to the end and keep on guard against the evil one which attacks us constantly. We know that it is by grace that we have been saved, through faith, and not by works, it is the gift of God, so that no man can boast.

 

[mexilad]

Ok, I read the postings in this thread and my brain hurts now. All I can contribute to this discussionwhichI think is dangerously close if not completely crossed over to futility, is a quote from a Padre/Saint Pio; :Hope, pray and don’t worry."

May God bless you all on your journey.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Really? You’ve never heard a Protestant say that “outside of Christianity there is no salvation”?

I deliberately used the word “organization” here. Christianity exists in many organizations.

 

[PRmerger]

I deliberately used the word “organization” here. Christianity exists in many organizations.

So what’s the diff?

Isn’t it still the same paradigm?

Isn’t it still supreme “arrogance” to say if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven?

 

[AmateurPianist]

So what’s the diff?

Isn’t it still the same paradigm?

No…one is the belief system that outside of an organization there is no eternal life and the other is a velief system that outside of a person there is no eternal life.

Isn’t it still supreme “arrogance” to say if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven?

Actually neither is arrogance. These are both exclusive belief systems.

But most belief systems are exclusive to some extent. I am sure that by defining myself as a Christian who has salvation in a person, Jesus Christ, that by this definition I have an inferior status with respect to the afterlife in many competing belief systems.

It is just the nature of the beast. Belief systems in order to have meaningful definition must have boundaries and negative consequences (often in eternity) if your particular beliefs are outside of the boundaries. And attempting to convert those who are outside of the logical boundaries of your belief system is just a logical outgrowth of the belief system.

Now you don’t like it because there are Christians who have the belief systems whose boundaries exclude you and who have negative consequences for y’all because your beliefs are outside of their boundaries. But your belief system does the same. The only difference is the possible negative consequences are a little softer in your belief system than the other.

 

[KathleenGee]

One of the reasons ‘church’ exists is that we share our faith together in common practices.

We have church authorities and theologians who help us understand the Word of God in the particular times we live in as well as the conditions of every day life.

My faith was not shattered when the discipline of not eating meat on Fridays was removed. It was a common, shared practice that we all recalled Friday as the day of the week Christ died for our sins.

That is one of the things I like very much about the Church, if you are especially able to go to Mass, and keep focused on the liturgical year, that we recall feasts and significant events from our past to draw on.

There were work, medical, and cultural regions in modern time that bishops decided to let go of the fasting of meat. As the Lord said, His burden light, His yoke easy and the Church authorities do not want to put unnecessary burdens on believers.

People share their impressions of what it means to be Catholic, but the reality that we live out has a different focus. People judge by outward appearances or are attached to one or two experiences of Catholics, like someone who sewed a scapular on to a toy, read into it and saw it as a superstitious practice. How many of you sew scapulars on to your toys here??? That was a child’s act. So we as a body of believers are condemned because of some child’s action with a toy…when it was an endearment…

When debating, people will come out with their issues and it will be usually one or two past experiences they had in the past that then labelled all Catholics as such. When faith sharing, we always have to look out for our own baggage.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Amateur Pianist…

Show me a comment here, and I sincerely mean that as my eyes are not doing well with computer screen, of Catholics saying people will go to hell for not being Catholic.

I can see why non-Catholics are afraid of my faith’s religion. And it can block people their entire life from ever understanding the tenants of my faith. The Lord takes all those who seek His will and do their best…

Generally Catholics do not threaten hellfire. You are a little more subtle than that.

I have read terms like “your soul in danger” and the like.

One poster explained it quite nicely, I think. He said that us Protestants by definition believe heresy which is a mortal sin. Thus it is incumbent upon Catholics to convert Protestants so that we are no longer believing heresy.

This does not necessarily mean that we Protestants go to hell for this belief. Perhaps the other conditions for mortality are not met. Perhaps instead we get off just with more time in purgatory as far as negative consequences in eternity.

 

[KathleenGee]

One of the marks of those who believe in Christ, is that indeed, they, we, whomever, have experienced what it means to die to self and to find new life in Christ.

The first reaction is that you want to proclaim this relationship to the world, you want others to be free, and it is the action of the Holy Spirit that makes a believer want to go out and share this faith, this new life, this new relationship with God.

When I was young, I felt a presence of deep peace and calmness, the words here are nothing really to what I felt, but it took away all fear and it was as if I could ‘see’ the way that goes into eternal life…you experience being connected to all creation and that with the Creator.

Once you experience this, you can’t go back to how you lived before. The earliest Christians who were previously in some sort of slavery to sin and to others, were so affected that they endured persecutions and terrible deaths to keep this faith and relationship.

If people come here, it is our right response to want to share our faith with others. I have attended Protestant services and we worship the same God. But there is so profoundly more to faith through the Catholic Church with the Eucharist and the other sacraments, our secure teachings and help to understand our faith in difficult times with solid instruction, as well as much more in the life of the Church, that these factors are also workings of the Holy Spirit to help provide others with a richer life in Christ.

It is the working of the Holy Spirit, this desire to bring others to relationship with God.

 

[Zooey]

This has bothered me since I first saw it. I consider it an outrageous misuse of the term.
Catholics are every bit Christian as you, sir. I consider some of the beliefs you have espoused here in the past to be hugely in error, but I would not consider you apostate.

Jon

[SIGN1]:thumbsup:Amen, Jon!!![/SIGN1]

Nobody has any business coming on a site called “Catholic Answers” and spouting “apostate, apostate”. It’s not kind, it’s not true, and it is most definitely not Christian.

I joined this board in 2005, after being insulted & verbally assaulted by my fellow non-Catholic Christians, & I have found here a** truly Christian** home on the 'net.

(I will now go back to catching up my reading of this thread at the same point where I was when my [Lutheran] brother in Christ caused this little old-fashioned Methodist girl to stand up & be counted).

 

[wmscott]

Generally Catholics do not threaten hellfire. You are a little more subtle than that.

I have read terms like “your soul in danger” and the like.

One poster explained it quite nicely, I think. He said that us Protestants by definition believe heresy which is a mortal sin. Thus it is incumbent upon Catholics to convert Protestants so that we are no longer believing heresy.

This does not necessarily mean that we Protestants go to hell for this belief. Perhaps the other conditions for mortality are not met. Perhaps instead we get off just with more time in purgatory as far as negative consequences in eternity.

Amateur, I know that I have posted this before and do so again because you state “Protestants by definition believe heresy which is a mortal sin. Thus it is incumbent upon Catholics to convert Protestants so that we are no longer believing heresy”. The Catholic Church teaches the following:

**818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” **

Don’t you see, the Catholic Church does not condemn you or any other Protestant for their faith in Christ? Sometimes I think some Protestants take the persecuted position to point out how bad the Catholic Church is, but that is just my opinion.

That being said, I have no fear or doubts about my immediate families status as a Christian nor call into question their plan for salvation. My family is made up of Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Episcopalians, non Denominational, and so on. I would never disrespect them nor their particular beliefs or their right to believe the way they choose. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

People here have to know that most Catholics don’t have the time to draw on Vatican II, and so must depend on their pastors to explain our relationship and attitude towards non-Catholic Christians.

William here has drawn on some points all Catholics should understand regarding our relationship with our Christian Protestant brethren.

Protestants should also note that the baptism rite that you use is actually the Catholic rite of incorporation into the Body of Christ, and by right of this, you Protestants are indeed our brethren. I think every Sunday Mass always prays for our separated brethren and greater unity…and then that is all Catholics hear at Mass. We never hear priests denigrating at Mass as that is not the focus.

The focus of the Catholic Mass is Jesus Christ. We draw on His Word and His Eucharist. It is the place we are restored in Christ and with each other. We don’t spend our energies in a parish whatsoever about getting converts from protestant churches.

 

[Zooey]

Wm, I appreciate you making the distinction here. I just wish to respond by saying that prosyletizing Catholics is tantamont to the shepherd in the parable of the lost sheep spending all of his time looking for the sheep he hadn’t lost.

And His peace also with you,
Jon

Thank you, Jon!! I haven’t had this much of a blessing in quite some time.
:yyeess: :extrahappy:


Here you go, Jon: :flowers: :yeah_me: :aok:
God bless you real good, brother!! You are the:clapping: real deal.

 

[KathleenGee]

The way of Catholic evangelization is simply being in relationship with other people, living in the presence of Christ, being available, more by witness than by words. As I said elsewhere, I never go to other forums.

As St. Francis said, when all else fails, use words…but we seldom ever go that far. It is only when Protestants actively and directly engage us then we respond.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Amateur, I know that I have posted this before and do so again because you state “Protestants by definition believe heresy which is a mortal sin. Thus it is incumbent upon Catholics to convert Protestants so that we are no longer believing heresy”. The Catholic Church teaches the following:

**818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” **

Don’t you see, the Catholic Church does not condemn you or any other Protestant for their faith in Christ? Sometimes I think some Protestants take the persecuted position to point out how bad the Catholic Church is, but that is just my opinion.

That being said, I have no fear or doubts about my immediate families status as a Christian nor call into question their plan for salvation. My family is made up of Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Episcopalians, non Denominational, and so on. I would never disrespect them nor their particular beliefs or their right to believe the way they choose. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

But it also teaches:

They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

This is one reason why on the several threads I have read here with respect to Catholics leaving the Catholic organization I have seen phrases like “soul in peril”.

Now the great ambiguity here comes with folks like me who know your claims, but do not buy into them. I have heard Catholics argue both ways on this one, and to me anyway the text is ambiguous enough so that both interpretations can be reasonably supported.

My only point in this is to point out:
(1) To some extent Catholicism believes that it is a superior organization to other Christian organizations
(2) To some extent Catholicism believes there is a possibility at least of consequences beyond the grave to Christians who are not in the Catholic organization.
(3) To some extent Catholicism seeks the conversion of those in other organizations to the Catholic organization

…and I really am not offended by this. It is the nature of the beast.

And we can have a discussion on how broad this “extent” is. From what I have read, the interpretation of the “broadness” here differs from Catholic to Catholic and multiple interpretations can be made to this ear to sound reasonable.

But my point is that the general principles here cut both ways. The differences that exist are a matter of extent.

 

[KathleenGee]

Amateur…

Let me step in to say that people are perceiving this attitude of superiority. It is not at all. The foundation and structure of the Church is beyond us or any one person. It is founded and nurtured by Christ Himself, and its foundation was set up by no one other than the Apostles themselves. They handpicked those as their successors.

I have seen references before to this idea of superiority…we are addressing Jesus working through the Holy Spirit. The Church is His creation incarnated through sinners. And when one is considered for canonization, the first thing the Church looks for is how mistreated the individual was by other Catholics.

Virtue hides itself.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Amateur…

Let me step in to say that people are perceiving this attitude of superiority. It is not at all. The foundation and structure of the Church is beyond us or any one person. It is founded and nurtured by Christ Himself, and its foundation was set up by no one other than the Apostles themselves. They handpicked those as their successors.

I have seen references before to this idea of superiority…we are addressing Jesus working through the Holy Spirit. The Church is His creation incarnated through sinners. And when one is considered for canonization, the first thing the Church looks for is how mistreated the individual was by other Catholics.

Virtue hides itself.

Actually I have used the word “superior”. But the meaning which I use it in is the sense that God blesses one organization with graces and benefits that he can not/will not bless other organizations with. In that sense Catholicism does make the claim of superiority.

Example: papal infallabilty. That is provided to only one organization only (indeed it is logically impossible for two organizations proclaiming contradictory doctrines and dogmas to both be incapable of being incorrect). So in this sense Catholicism is the superior organization.

 

[wmscott]

But it also teaches:

This is one reason why on the several threads I have read here with respect to Catholics leaving the Catholic organization I have seen phrases like “soul in peril”.

Now the great ambiguity here comes with folks like me who know your claims, but do not buy into them. I have heard Catholics argue both ways on this one, and to me anyway the text is ambiguous enough so that both interpretations can be reasonably supported.

My only point in this is to point out:
(1) To some extent Catholicism believes that it is a superior organization to other Christian organizations
(2) To some extent Catholicism believes there is a possibility at least of consequences beyond the grave to Christians who are not in the Catholic organization.
(3) To some extent Catholicism seeks the conversion of those in other organizations to the Catholic organization

…and I really am not offended by this. It is the nature of the beast.

And we can have a discussion on how broad this “extent” is. From what I have read, the interpretation of the “broadness” here differs from Catholic to Catholic and multiple interpretations can be made to this ear to sound reasonable.

But my point is that the general principles here cut both ways. The differences that exist are a matter of extent.

Hi Amateur, can you provide me with the link to your reference, I am having a little trouble locating it and I want to research it further. Peace

 

[AmateurPianist]

Hi Amateur, can you provide me with the link to your reference, I am having a little trouble locating it and I want to research it further. Peace

Oh good grief, I couldn’t find it now. I am just an avid reader and can remember of reading it somewhere.

Remember all types post here,

But I did find this article that I was hunting for.

And Pope Pius XII stated concerning “those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church … we ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in he Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the society of glorious love” (Mystici Corporis 103).