A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[wmscott]

Oh good grief, I couldn’t find it now. I am just an avid reader and can remember of reading it somewhere.

Remember all types post here,

But I did find this article that I was hunting for.

Too funny, I sympathize with your dilemma. I read and misplace stuff all the time. However, I would like to continue to research this point. Because I think, only God knows the state of an individual’s soul.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

hi mike. but in the Lutheran and Catholic communions, as well as the Anglican, and Orthodox. i am looking forward to the day, when we can all sit once again at the same table for the Lords supper. we are seperated only by a few degrees. so hopefully, we can at some point be led by these “grumpy” old mortal men, as one family

Benedict-

I so share your hope that some day we will all be one again. Every Sunday my congregation prays for the unity of the church. I’m sure that at some point it will happen, I just hope that another 500 years doesn’t have to pass.

Although, I hope that we won’t be “led” or dictated to by a bunch of grumpy old mortal men, but actually work in partnership with them to truly live Christ’s ministry.

Mike

 

[KathleenGee]

I know alot of ‘heavenly’ old clerics…full of mirth and fun and joy…always letting us know the Lord wants them to be there for us in the support of our faith…

Papal infallibility is only in certain conditions. Many encyclicals do not carry the same level of truth. It has been covered here on CAF many times.

One Holy Father wrote an encyclical stating that all Latin seminarians were to have their studies in Latin and no one complied. So right there shows that the rest of us are not blind vacuums.

Has anyone ever been to a priest chapter meeting? They come around every 3 years in religious congregations…One priest told me to save my grievance for the chapter. Here at the chapter meeting, every one let’s it out…all their grievances, personal issues, whatever. They allowed it with the sisters and lay ministers. Very earthy. One time a priest said, ‘Papa has to get down here to see what really is going on.’ We are family.

Any real experience with Catholics and you will realize that there is something you read in books and fundamentalist teachings vs being with Catholics and seeing how we actually relate to our faith and live it out. Huge gap…and the reason why many of us get reactionary at times.

You will always find those that take matters into their own hands…

The problem with Sola Scriptura is essentially it is you alone with the bible vs. church in community…TTT…Things Take Time…without community, your love of God can’t be tested.

 

[KathleenGee]

MikeofFaith,

Yes, the unity of one faith, one body is the goal of prayer intentions of Catholic parishes all over the world as well as those of the ‘grumpy old men’.

 

[guanophore]

No…one is the belief system that outside of an organization there is no eternal life and the other is a velief system that outside of a person there is no eternal life.

These are both exclusive belief systems.

No, they are not. Jesus founded a Church, and all who are members of Him are members one of another, and therefore, part of His One Body. Outside of His Body, there is no salvation, because there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

 And attempting to convert those who are outside of the logical boundaries of your belief system is just a logical outgrowth of the belief system.

I agree with this. I think it is also the answer to the OP’s question. Another way to ask it might be, what is it about Catholics that leads you to believe they are not saved, and therefore, must be evangelized?

Now you don't like it because there are Christians who have the belief systems whose boundaries exclude you and who have negative consequences for y'all because your beliefs are outside of their boundaries.

Why would we like this? Do you not see this as a wound to the unity Jesus desires among His flock?

 But your belief system does the same.  The only difference is the possible negative consequences are a little softer in your belief system than the other.

Hell is hell, is it not?

 

[KathleenGee]

Amateur Pianist,

Speak with any priest who has worked among the poor and he will be the first to defend a humble soul who is part of no religion but honors other human beings accordingly…because that person is on the walk to salvation…that person is already picking up God and His goodness --as St. Paul had already said in Romans – that people of the world can already perceive God in the world around them and choose to go the way of goodness or that of evil.

The Catholic Church has the fullness of means and benefits to gain salvation, but God Himself can point the way through every day life and creation around us…the Golden Rule…the lack of others to help the person recognize Christ…Confucius stated ‘laws’ that correlated the 7 commandments, but he did not have the awareness of the revelation of God and Who He is…that reserved for the Jewish people…the first three of having only one God, to not take His name in vain, to rest on the sabbath.

What you may be reacting to are either corruption of practices or unhealthy devotions that came out of religious congregations that were purged and corrected from Vatican II…some ethnic locations are not completely purged of unhealthy attitudes or people but it is coming to its completion.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Originally Posted by Mikeoffaith
As a Lutheran, I will most certainly attest that my Church was started by a mortal man, Leo X, Bishop of Rome.

This reminds me of that statement, "You don’t leave Peter becasue of Judas."

So Nicea325, not trying to be rude, but you do realize that your Church is run by a bunch of old mortal men with nearly zero connection to the real world or the faithful at large. That’s the reality, so why deny it.

So Mike, are you saying that the Lutheran church, started by an “old mortal man” (your words) is more “hip” to the real world we live in than the CC? If so, please expand on this. Do you feel the Lutheran church is better connected to their faithful because it satisfies their present day needs?

Hello T More-

Interesting quote to “You don’t leave Peter because of Judas.” I think it really sums up the big misunderstanding of how the Lutheran church came about. Everyone thinks that Martin was big revolutionary and out to start his own church. I think it looks a little different when the Holy Roman Emperor puts a warrant out for your murder and “Peter” throws you out of the church for speaking your mind publicly.

And I never said that my church was founded by a mortal man, I said that my church was started by a mortal man. Now I don’t think my denomination is any more hip because of who was at there at its independence. I am saying that I believe that Lutheran church understands the real world better than the hierarchy of the Roman church. I can’t say that the Lutheran church is better connected to their faithful because it satisfies their present day needs. I feel I can say that the Lutheran church satisfies the faithfuls present day needs because it is better connected to the faithful. I think when the faithful are a full participant in the polity, then yes we are far better connected. When you set up a structure where the lives of the hierarchy are in no way shape or form similar to the people they serve there is a real disconnect.

 

[guanophore]

I have read terms like “your soul in danger” and the like.

This is because the Apostles taught that none of us are qualified to judge the final state of the soul. Only God judges the eternal destiny of a person. We know what things will get us to hell, and which will get us to heaven, and that is as much as we can say.

One poster explained it quite nicely, I think. He said that us Protestants by definition believe heresy which is a mortal sin.

Whoever told you this is in error. Mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent, yet the vast majority of Protestants have never received the Aposotlic faith. They don’t even realize that they are embracing heresies, and cannot be charged with the sin of heresy.

It is a mortal sin for a Catholic, who knows better, to abandon the Apostolic faith and embrace Protestantism, but most of those Catholics that leave the faith did not understand it in the first place.

Thus it is incumbent upon Catholics to convert Protestants so that we are no longer believing heresy.

This part is true. We have an obligation to make them aware of the part of the faith that their ancestors abandoned during the Reformation.

This does not necessarily mean that we Protestants go to hell for this belief. Perhaps the other conditions for mortality are not met. Perhaps instead we get off just with more time in purgatory as far as negative consequences in eternity.

Each person will be judged in the light of the amount of Truth they have received.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Of course I assume the Catholic Church is 100% accurate. It was founded by Christ to insure that I COULD find accurate teaching and not have to rely on my faulty human intelligence.

Niether is sinful, it is sinful to disobey the authority that Christ instituted.

It’s not an either/or but a both/and.

WE ARE brothers and sisters in Christ. I don’t think the Church thinks you are wrong but that you don’t have the whole story. At least, thats my take on the subject.

But you can’t say that the Roman Church is 100% accurate because it was founded by Christ. That would mean the Roman Church has never erred in it’s teaching. So the Roman Church’s condemnation of the idea of a heliocentric system which is contrary to scripture and therefore a heresy is 100% accurate? Even John Paul II on Reformation Day (how appropriate) 1992 said that they church had committed errors.

 

[Hisalone]

No, they are not. Jesus founded a Church, and all who are members of Him are members one of another, and therefore, part of His One Body. Outside of His Body, there is no salvation, because there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

The discussion is centered on who is and who is not part of that body.

I agree with this. I think it is also the answer to the OP’s question. Another way to ask it might be, what is it about Catholics that leads you to believe they are not saved, and therefore, must be evangelized?

Many Catholics are saved. They believe in Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as Lord and as Savior and are earnestly attempting to folow Him throughout their lives. Sadly many here on Catholic Answers who profess to be Catholics are not saved. But again I will add that many who profess to be Protestants are not saved either.

Why would we like this? Do you not see this as a wound to the unity Jesus desires among His flock?

Being Catholic does not make one unsaved. Having a relationship with an institution/orgainization rather than God is being unsaved.

Hell is hell, is it not?

 

[Hisalone]

Thank you, Jon!! I haven’t had this much of a blessing in quite some time.
:yyeess: :extrahappy:


Here you go, Jon: :flowers: :yeah_me: :aok:
God bless you real good, brother!! You are the:clapping: real deal.

Originally Posted by JonNC
Wm, I appreciate you making the distinction here. I just wish to respond by saying that prosyletizing Catholics is tantamont to the shepherd in the parable of the lost sheep spending all of his time looking for the sheep he hadn’t lost.

Hey guys you make the false assumption that claiming to be Catholic=one of Christs sheep.

 

[Dokimas]

This is absolutely true. We are aware that our separated brethren lost the treasures of Sacred Tradition about 500 years ago when their spiritual ancestors abandoned the succession.

CAF is an evangelistic ministry, and there is a strong bias here toward bringing people into, or back to the Catholic Church, while there is a rule against those who want to do the opposite.

Kinda reminds me of what happened to Saul of Tarsus.

**

I don’t see any, except that this forum is dedicated to discussing differences. Hisalone just answered the OP’s question, which was kinda gutsy, given the fact that he got jumped all over for doing it, and that few other non-catholics have been brave enough to make the same attempt.​

Yes, everyone can use some evangelism! However, for us, Jesus is One with His Body, the Church, so when we evangelize, there is no distinction between connecting to the Head, and being part of His One Body, the Church.**

No use saying anything more than, thanks for your opinion.

 

[Dokimas]

The Catholic teaching is that all disobedience is sin. The guidelines around fasting are disciplines, not doctrines. They vary according to Rite and bishopric. It is the duty of the faithful to follow the direction of their leaders. Is there ever a time when observing a rule of fast out of obedience would harm a person?

I doubt any of them are correct all the time. The Teachings of the Apostles are preserved infallibly in the Church. Those who embrace them and teach them are the ones who represent the correct doctrine. Those who depart from it do not. It does not matter what group they are in.​

There is only One Church, One Body, and One Family of God. We cannot belong to Christ without also becoming members one of another. The two are not separable.

I see in the Bible that commanding to abstain from food God has given is sinful in and of itself.

As for the rest of your comments, thanks for your opinion.

 

[Dokimas]

The commandment to obey our leaders has not changed.​

No Doki, you did not. In fact, all these things that you have experienced are the direct result of the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside the Church, and all who come to know HIm do so because of how He reveals Himself through her. This is why He built the Church, so that He could manifest His glory through her.

I’m not sure what ‘to obey our leaders has not changed’ has to do with my statement (or question).

And, thanks for your opinion.

 

[Dokimas]

Abstaining from meats on Fridays is a discipline, like celibacy, and can and in some situations dispensed. What you said as a catechized Catholic makes not sense. But I do understand because I get frustrated with Catholics that don’t understand it either, especially the one’s that leave the Church and then try to tell us what we really believe by saying it all wrong, like Hisalone.

Further, there are many spiritualities within the Church, however there is only one teaching uniformly believed. But that does not mean that all Catholics accept or practice that which they are supposed to. The reason the Church teaches it is because it is objective truth, not opinion. A study of the ancient church and the understanding of that which has been passed on to us since Christ defines what is truth. Without the Church, there would be no Holy Spirit to guide the Church, defined in the scriptures. Not in the mood for BCV tonight.

Yes, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, yet we non-Catholic Christians are separated brethren for the mere fact that they do not accept the truth given by Christ to the Church, whether by their own fault of other reasons. We are washed by the blood of the Lamb when we are baptized, yet we must continue to work our way through to the end and keep on guard against the evil one which attacks us constantly. We know that it is by grace that we have been saved, through faith, and not by works, it is the gift of God, so that no man can boast.

Thank you for the time you spent to give me your opinion; I’m thankful for your opinion as well.

 

[Dokimas]

---

Originally Posted by guanophore
No, they are not. Jesus founded a Church, and all who are members of Him are members one of another, and therefore, part of His One Body. Outside of His Body, there is no salvation, because there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

The discussion is centered on who is and who is not part of that body.

I agree with this. I think it is also the answer to the OP’s question. Another way to ask it might be, what is it about Catholics that leads you to believe they are not saved, and therefore, must be evangelized?

Many Catholics are saved. They believe in Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as Lord and as Savior and are earnestly attempting to folow Him throughout their lives. Sadly many here on Catholic Answers who profess to be Catholics are not saved. But again I will add that many who profess to be Protestants are not saved either.

Why would we like this? Do you not see this as a wound to the unity Jesus desires among His flock?

Being Catholic does not make one unsaved. Having a relationship with an institution/orgainization rather than God is being unsaved.

Hell is hell, is it not?

Thanks, Hisalone, for your opinion. BTW, if I understand you position, I agree with you (and that’s my opinion).

 

[AmateurPianist]

No, they are not. Jesus founded a Church, and all who are members of Him are members one of another, and therefore, part of His One Body. Outside of His Body, there is no salvation, because there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

I am not sure you and I are addressing the same question. I now sort of forgot what it was.

I agree with this. I think it is also the answer to the OP’s question. Another way to ask it might be, what is it about Catholics that leads you to believe they are not saved, and therefore, must be evangelized?

Well if you are asking me, everybody needs to be evangelized. But since I am not God, I have no idea which if any Christian organizations need it more and which need it less. So for the time being I will assume my organization needs it more and leave the other organizations to God.

Why would we like this? Do you not see this as a wound to the unity Jesus desires among His flock?

Oh it is just as wrong to believe “because you are part of organization ‘C’ therefore you do not have eternal life” as it is to believe “because I am part of organization ‘A’ therefore I have eternal life.” Except we apply the first to the other guy in the organization down the road while we self righteously apply the second to ourselves.

Hell is hell, is it not?

And I forgot what this was about too.

 

[pete_29]

But you can’t say that the Roman Church is 100% accurate because it was founded by Christ. That would mean the Roman Church has never erred in it’s teaching. So the Roman Church’s condemnation of the idea of a heliocentric system which is contrary to scripture and therefore a heresy is 100% accurate? Even John Paul II on Reformation Day (how appropriate) 1992 said that they church had committed errors.

I believe that in matters of Faith it is 100 % accurate.

 

[Maximilian928]

There is one thing in common with every Protestant I know, and that is pride. It is in our nature to be defensive when anything we believe is questioned. It is something else to be humble and admit that you might just be wrong, which most Protestants are certainly not willing to do. I will present Biblical facts supporting my faith, but sad to say their individualistic approach to God does not allow them to face the facts. Instead I usually receive nasty comments and anger. Truth is Truth, and that truth did not suddenly appear in the 16th century. I can trace back every heretical belief of Protestants to just the last 500 years. Before this, the ridiculous beliefs such as “name it and claim it,” “sola scriptura,” “once saved always saved,” etc. were never even heard of or practiced. Where pride and ignorance dwell, there you will find the person who criticizes Catholics.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Whoever told you this is in error. Mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent, yet the vast majority of Protestants have never received the Aposotlic faith. They don’t even realize that they are embracing heresies, and cannot be charged with the sin of heresy.

Backtrack. Communication error on my part. I should have said…

Protestants by definition believe heresy which is a grave matter and one of the conditions for mortal sin.

Whether we “realize we are embracing heresy” the best I can determine is debatable per Catholicism and depends on how you interpret “invincible ignorance”…whether being informed of “the truth” means that “invincible ignorance” no longer applies.