A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[PRmerger]

I see in the Bible that commanding to abstain from food God has given is sinful in and of itself.

Can you provide a verse for this, Doki?

 

[Lutheranteach]

These threads always degenerate into garbage that helps no one.

 

[mark_a]

Im unmarried living a celibate life in no need of contraception nor abortion.
You ever notice how sometimes facts get in the way of our false presumptions.

I’m speaking of folks I know personally. I don’t know you.

Speaking of presumptions:

There are many Catholics that I see who have a relationship with an institutionalized church and have little or no relationship with God. I can add that there are many Protestants who are “religious” but dont know God.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure what ‘to obey our leaders has not changed’ has to do with my statement (or question).

It has to do with the fact that our leaders told us to abstain from meat on all Fridays at one point, and at another point told us to only do it during Fridays in Lent.

So, the commandment to “obey our leaders” has not changed.

Just like we as parents can say our our oldest child, “You may drive when you turn 16” but to our next oldest child, “You may drive when you are 18”.

There has been no change in the “rule” of driving age at our household–it was and always has been, “You may drive when your parents say you can.”

 

[mark_a]

But don’t forget that many protestant churches seek the same morality regarding life as you. You could flame me here, since I belong to the Anglican church and their stance on marriage is arguable from the RC point of view… but we do have very pronounced opinions on pro-life and morality issues.

Bless you all!

Rita x

Churches that turn a blind eye to contraception, the mother of abortion, lack the moral clarity to speak authoritatively. I am glad your Chuch hasn’t caved on the issue.

 

[Dokimas]

Can you provide a verse for this, Doki?

1Timothy 4:
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;

 

[Tantum_ergo]

1Timothy 4:
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;

Interesting. . .of course, in Timothy Paul is speaking of the gnostics who were all that “only SPIRIT is good, 'FLESH is sinful” crowd. . .the ones who were saying, "No meat, EVER’.

I’d brought that up earlier and you apparently went off in the wrong direction. If Catholics were forbidden to ever eat meat, I would grant you your Timothy. But they aren’t.

The way Paul uses “abstain” here does not equal the way that Catholics use ‘abstain’. For Paul used "abstain’ in the sense of ‘forbidding ever to eat a given food’ and we use it for ‘refrain from eating at a certain time’.

If you’re quoting Timothy and using “abstain” and condemning it in Catholics, what then do you say about fasting?

When you FAST, do you not 'abstain from food???

**The Bible tells us to fast. **

So either you have a flat-out contradiction where St. Paul says, 'You may not abstain from food" but Scripture says, “When the Bridegroom is gone they shall FAST (and fasting is abstinence from food)”. . .

Care to tell us how you solve this conundrum?

 

[PRmerger]

Oh it is just as wrong to believe “because you are part of organization ‘C’ therefore you do not have eternal life” as it is to believe “because I am part of organization ‘A’ therefore I have eternal life.” Except we apply the first to the other guy in the organization down the road while** we** self righteously apply the second to ourselves.

Who believes this paradigm anyway? Certainly not the CC!

Who is the “we” that you are referring to?

 

[PRmerger]

No…one is the belief system that outside of an organization there is no eternal life and the other is a velief system that outside of a person there is no eternal life.

Yes. That’s exactly what the Catholic Church teaches: outside of the person of Jesus (including His Body: the Catholic Church) there is no salvation.

So when Catholics say this, *it is only a reiteration of Jesus’ teaching: * I am the way, the truth and the life.

 

[Dokimas]

Interesting. . .of course, in Timothy Paul is speaking of the gnostics who were all that “only SPIRIT is good, 'FLESH is sinful” crowd. . .the ones who were saying, "No meat, EVER’.

I’d brought that up earlier and you apparently went off in the wrong direction. If Catholics were forbidden to ever eat meat, I would grant you your Timothy. But they aren’t.

The way Paul uses “abstain” here does not equal the way that Catholics use ‘abstain’. For Paul used "abstain’ in the sense of ‘forbidding ever to eat a given food’ and we use it for ‘refrain from eating at a certain time’.

If you’re quoting Timothy and using “abstain” and condemning it in Catholics, what then do you say about fasting?

When you FAST, do you not 'abstain from food???

**The Bible tells us to fast. **

So either you have a flat-out contradiction where St. Paul says, 'You may not abstain from food" but Scripture says, “When the Bridegroom is gone they shall FAST (and fasting is abstinence from food)”. . .

Care to tell us how you solve this conundrum?

IMO, “Forced” fasting is not fasting for the glory of God. If people are told it is a sin to eat meat on Friday, they are being forced to fast. I believe that Paul was against this form of ‘fasting’ by complusion.

 

[Dokimas]

It has to do with the fact that our leaders told us to abstain from meat on all Fridays at one point, and at another point told us to only do it during Fridays in Lent.

So, the commandment to “obey our leaders” has not changed.

Just like we as parents can say our our oldest child, “You may drive when you turn 16” but to our next oldest child, “You may drive when you are 18”.

There has been no change in the “rule” of driving age at our household–it was and always has been, “You may drive when your parents say you can.”

Telling adults they are sinning if they eat meat on Fridays is the same as telling a 16 yr old they can’t drive until they’re older?

 

[PRmerger]

IMO, “Forced” fasting is not fasting for the glory of God. If people are told it is a sin to eat meat on Friday, they are being forced to fast. I believe that Paul was against this form of ‘fasting’ by complusion.

If you are being told that it is a sin to commit adultery, does that mean you are being “forced” to remain faithful to your wife?

 

[PRmerger]

Telling adults they are sinning if they eat meat on Fridays is the same as telling a 16 yr old they can’t drive until they’re older?

No.

I didn’t say it’s “the same”, did I?

 

[eucharisteo]

IMO, “Forced” fasting is not fasting for the glory of God. If people are told it is a sin to eat meat on Friday, they are being forced to fast. I believe that Paul was against this form of ‘fasting’ by complusion.

edit…We are encouraged to fast, not forced. All this hate coming from you. I think you need to rethink your strategy. It sounds very uninformed.

 

[eucharisteo]

If you are being told that it is a sin to commit adultery, does that mean you are being “forced” to remain faithful to your wife?

Some Christians don’t think we have to do anything. They say a prayer and that’s the sum of their faith. But they’re save, just ask them.

 

[KathleenGee]

The non-Catholics here are soooo burdened in how they imagine what it is like being a Catholic…

 

[Metamorphoo]

There is one thing in common with every Protestant I know, and that is pride. It is in our nature to be defensive when anything we believe is questioned. It is something else to be humble and admit that you might just be wrong, which most Protestants are certainly not willing to do. I will present Biblical facts supporting my faith, but sad to say their individualistic approach to God does not allow them to face the facts. Instead I usually receive nasty comments and anger. Truth is Truth, and that truth did not suddenly appear in the 16th century. I can trace back every heretical belief of Protestants to just the last 500 years. Before this, the ridiculous beliefs such as “name it and claim it,” “sola scriptura,” “once saved always saved,” etc. were never even heard of or practiced. Where pride and ignorance dwell, there you will find the person who criticizes Catholics.

I can assure you that Protestants do not have a corner on the pride market! I have a lot of Catholic relatives. Some are authentic followers in Christ and love the RCC–and because of our mutual love for Jesus, we have had many great conversations about spiritual matters; others are very devoted to the Catholic Church (and would rather die than leave the Catholic faith) but I don’t see much evidence of a strong commitment to Christ Himself; and others are nominal Catholics/Christians.

I can assure you, however, that I have seen many, many manifestations of arrogance in their attitude of spiritual superiority over Protestants–even in the ones with whom I am close to and have times of wonderful fellowship. I have also seen it more than a few times on this forum. Arrogance and pride are, unfortunately, part of the ugly sin nature that we all deal with on this planet. I find it offensive when a Catholic allows spiritual arrogance to rear its ugly head–just as it is offensive when a Protestant does the same to a Catholic. No one likes being on the receiving end of that kind of treatment.

None of us are immune from pride–and we all tend to be blinded to it in ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

But you can’t say that the Roman Church is 100% accurate because it was founded by Christ. That would mean the Roman Church has never erred in it’s teaching. So the Roman Church’s condemnation of the idea of a heliocentric system which is contrary to scripture and therefore a heresy is 100% accurate? Even John Paul II on Reformation Day (how appropriate) 1992 said that they church had committed errors.

The gift of infallibility is a negative gift, in the sense that it is preventative. The Church is prevented from teaching error in the areas of faith and morals. It does not apply to science, and it does not keep individuals from making mistakes.

During the Reformation, there were an abundance of ignorant and corrupt clerics in Europe. They departed from the teaching of the Church, and therefore, were not protected by the Gift.

 

[Metamorphoo]

Yes. That’s exactly what the Catholic Church teaches: outside of the person of Jesus (including His Body: the Catholic Church) there is no salvation.

So when Catholics say this, *it is only a reiteration of Jesus’ teaching: * I am the way, the truth and the life.

I think the emphasis is what is troubling to non-Catholic Christians … instead of focusing on the necessity of relationship to the Head–Jesus, the source of all Life–dogmas have been issued which emphasize the necessity of being connected to the Body in order to have life.

 

[guanophore]

The discussion is centered on who is and who is not part of that body.

Is that so? Does that mean you believe Catholics must be evangelized because they are not part of the Body?

Many Catholics are saved.

Doesn’t that make them part of the Body?

They believe in Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as Lord and as Savior and are earnestly attempting to folow Him throughout their lives.

The truth is that one cannot be Catholic unless they do this. If they say they are Catholic, and have not, then they are practicing only a form of godliness, without the power thereof. They do not meet the requirement to be Catholic. They may think they are Catholic, but they are really not.

Sadly many here on Catholic Answers who profess to be Catholics are not saved.

This is not your judgement to make. It is not for any of us to make. In your opinion they may not be, but only God can judge the heart.

But again I will add that many who profess to be Protestants are not saved either.

It is only human arrogance that would presume to draw such a conclusion about another person. We are not even qualified to judge ourselves.

Being Catholic does not make one unsaved. Having a relationship with an institution/orgainization rather than God is being unsaved.

I can’t argue with that!

However, one can have a relationship with the Body as well as the Head. The two are not contradictory.