A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[guanophore]

I see in the Bible that commanding to abstain from food God has given is sinful in and of itself.

Yes. But there is no commandment that any foods may not be eaten.

There are guidelines for fasting.

The fast is over at Easter. You should see the buffet!

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure what ‘to obey our leaders has not changed’ has to do with my statement (or question).

You were criticizing the guidelines for fasting. I stated that all disobedience is sin. The commandment to obey our leaders remains the same throughout the ages. The fasting guidelines change from era to era, and culture/country.

This is the difference between a doctrine, and a discipline. A doctrine comes from Jesus through the Aposltes. Disciplines vary.

 

[Metamorphoo]

The gift of infallibility is a negative gift, in the sense that it is preventative. The Church is prevented from teaching error in the areas of faith and morals. It does not apply to science, and it does not keep individuals from making mistakes.

During the Reformation, there were an abundance of ignorant and corrupt clerics in Europe. They departed from the teaching of the Church, and therefore, were not protected by the Gift.

What is your definition of the word “Church”? Is it an institution which is protected from infaliibility? Or is the Church the body of people (laymen and clergy alike) who are joined to Christ? I ask this because we all know that there were plenty of ungodly clergy (including some popes) in the Middle Ages. Were these people truly part of Christ’s Church? Can an ungodly pope who in all likelihood was not even an authentic Christian truly be a “vicar of Christ” if he is not truly joined to the Head of the Church: Jesus?

 

[Musician]

Haha! I just find it amusing when Protestants try to proselytize Catholics.
We were here first.

 

[guanophore]

IMO, “Forced” fasting is not fasting for the glory of God. If people are told it is a sin to eat meat on Friday, they are being forced to fast. I believe that Paul was against this form of ‘fasting’ by complusion.

It certainly loses a lot of value, but not all. When one complies with spiritual disciplines, even when they don’t want to, they can still benefit.

It is not that different than the discipline of brushing one’s teeth. If one is invested in it, one will do a more thorough job. If a child sumbits by compulsion to tooth brushing, it might not be as effective as an invested job would be, but it still has some benefit.

The fact is that the flesh is a battlefield, and we must beat the body in order to subdue it. It is better if this is done with joyful embrace, but putting the desires of the flesh into subjection is always of benefit, even if it is not joyfully done.

 

[guanophore]

What is your definition of the word “Church”? Is it an institution which is protected from infaliibility?

This is a good question. The Church established by Christ is much larger than the part that is visible on earth as a human institution. It is the Body of Christ, who has at her Head Jesus, and her Soul is the Holy Spirit. It also contains all the holy souls who have gone on before us in faith, and are forever perfected, and can no longer sin, as they are kept by Him. It is the divine elements that make the Church infallible, not the human.

Or is the Church the body of people (laymen and clergy alike) who are joined to Christ?

While this statement is an accurate representation of a small aspect of Church, by itself it is extremely deficient. I think it is this deficient notion of Church that creates so much antagonism against Catholicism. Since our brethren were separated from the Apostolic TEaching during the Reformation, this deficient notion of Church has become increasingly exacerbated to the extent that the divine elements of Church have been lost.

I ask this because we all know that there were plenty of ungodly clergy (including some popes) in the Middle Ages. Were these people truly part of Christ’s Church?

This is a very good point. Once one is baptized into the Body, and irrevocable spiritual event has occurred. However, when one falls into sin, one is separated from the Body into which they were baptized. There last state is worse than their first.

Can an ungodly pope who in all likelihood was not even an authentic Christian truly be a “vicar of Christ” if he is not truly joined to the Head of the Church: Jesus?

The office of vicar is not dependent upon the moral or spiritual purity of it’s occupant, just like the office of President is not dependent upon those characteristics of the person who holds it. Certainly a holy man in the office does good that the unholy cannot.

Jesus chose Peter, yet He knew that Peter would deny Him. Personal perfection or quality of character is not a pre-requisite. cooperation with grace is.

 

[PRmerger]

edit…We are encouraged to fast, not forced. All this hate coming from you. I think you need to rethink your strategy. It sounds very uninformed.

I have never seen any hate coming from Dokimas!

Where does this question come from?

 

[PRmerger]

I think the emphasis is what is troubling to non-Catholic Christians … instead of focusing on the necessity of relationship to the Head–Jesus, the source of all Life–

One cannot have an intimate relationship with Jesus, the Head, if one does not know Him through His Body. It is not an either/or but a both/and.

dogmas have been issued which emphasize the necessity of being connected to the Body in order to have life.

Can you tell me how one could be connected to the Head, Jesus, without being connected to the Body, the Church?

 

[SnakeMauler]

If I believed that the Catholic faith was the fulness of truth I would be a Catholic. I believe the Catholic faith has mixed the profane with the holy the pagan with what is true. What is charitable about leaving you in apostasy.

And where does this come from? Why, it was just a week ago when I was with my youth ministry, reading the good old Bible and serving food to the homeless. How does “profane” and “pagan” and “apostasy” apply to that?

 

[KathleenGee]

Hisalone is refusing to acknowledge that Christ Himself used pagan symbols – He died on one.

Wish I could recall the thread and post…some one went back into documented history and found events that proved the Church was not going about using pagan symbols…

Problem with bias is that it never wants to seek facts.

 

[guanophore]

Hisalone is refusing to acknowledge that Christ Himself used pagan symbols – He died on one.

Wish I could recall the thread and post…some one went back into documented history and found events that proved the Church was not going about using pagan symbols…

Problem with bias is that it never wants to seek facts.

You hit that nail on the head! If Hisalone were to admit that the Church had the power to baptize and transform every single Pagan image and practice into service to God, she would have to become Catholic!

 

[Metamorphoo]

One cannot have an intimate relationship with Jesus, the Head, if one does not know Him through His Body. It is not an either/or but a both/and.

Can you tell me how one could be connected to the Head, Jesus, without being connected to the Body, the Church?

If you are connected to the Head, you are automatically connected to the Body. But if you are not connected to the Head (have no real relationship with Jesus), it doesn’t matter what your church affiliation is–whethe Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Messianic Jew–you are not part of the Body of Christ. Connection to the Head is what is critical.

That is the issue that I have with the Catholic emphasis on salvation through the Church. It is misleading. People think that because they are 'devout Catholics" it is synonymous with being committed to Christ. It ain’t necessarily so. I have known too many people (both Catholic and non-Catholic) who are more committed to their church than they are to Jesus. That only makes them committed church members, not members of the Body of Christ.

 

[Metamorphoo]

This is a good question. The Church established by Christ is much larger than the part that is visible on earth as a human institution. It is the Body of Christ, who has at her Head Jesus, and her Soul is the Holy Spirit. It also contains all the holy souls who have gone on before us in faith, and are forever perfected, and can no longer sin, as they are kept by Him. It is the divine elements that make the Church infallible, not the human. … While this statement is an accurate representation of a small aspect of Church, by itself it is extremely deficient. … The office of vicar is not dependent upon the moral or spiritual purity of it’s occupant, just like the office of President is not dependent upon those characteristics of the person who holds it.

I agree that the Body of Christ includes those who have gone before us in the faith. No issue there. But you still haven’t stated what “the Church” is: (1) an infallible institution established by Jesus; or (2) the body of people who are committed to the Lord. An institution is about organization and offices, not people. If infallibility is tied to an office, then it makes the officeholder a member of Christ’s Church–regardless of his personal relationship to the Lord. If your definition of “the Church” is the latter (the body of people who are committed to the Lord), how can a person who is not an authentic Christian legitimately hold an office in Christ’s Church? Such a person is not a member of the Body of Christ because he isn’t a Christian.

 

[PRmerger]

If you are connected to the Head, you are automatically connected to the Body. But if you are not connected to the Head (have no real relationship with Jesus), it doesn’t matter what your church affiliation is–whethe Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Messianic Jew–you are not part of the Body of Christ. Connection to the Head is what is critical.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that!

That is the issue that I have with the Catholic emphasis on salvation through the Church. It is misleading.

Only to people who don’t know their faith.

 

[wmscott]

These threads always degenerate into garbage that helps no one.

Moreover, this certainly was not my intention, no matter what others may have read into my question. Peace.

 

[wmscott]

I have never seen any hate coming from Dokimas!

Where does this question come from?

I whole-heartedly agree, I have never seen hate from Dokimas. I have seen ill-informed opinions and beliefs he may have about the Catholic Faith, but never hate. As Dokimas continues here, I hope that he learns more and more about the Beautiful Catholic Faith. He does not have to agree or believe the way we do, but just know what the real beliefs are that the Catholic practices. Peace.

 

[KathleenGee]

Church can be defined on different levels.

You can see a building where people worship and that is called a church. A church to a Catholic in that context is called a parish. What makes a parish is the pastor appointed by the bishop, as was done in ancient times. The second most important person in the parish is the parish secretary…This secretary documents and keeps records of all sacramentalized Catholics. Parish records are among the best and most accurate and of greatest help in this country that parallel dental records in id’ing a person. The other that is necessary to found a parish is a council that helps the pastor with funds and contributions. The pastor has defined boundaries that comprise his parish. He is pastor not only of Catholics but cares through prayers and offerings, but every person living in his parochial boundaries. A pastor may have an assistant priest called a parochial vicar.

Parishes might form vicariates. Vicariates are where you have a satellite of parishes and the pastors and other representatives of the parish meet in shared concerns regarding the goings on and needs of their geographical region.

The local church is the diocese. The bishop is the head of the diocese. The bishop is the successor to the apostles. He has the same power in Christ as the original apostles did, but he conforms to the spirit of today. He reports to the Holy Father. He also represents the faith of all Catholic believers. He participates in episcopal conferences similar to vicariates, but conferences are comprised of bishops. He cares for all matters that happen in his diocese. The bishop ‘makes’ priests; the bishop is the one who ordains a man to the sacramental priesthood. The Catholic Church has lay ministry, but the sacramental priesthood is the ministry of the Word and Sacraments. The bishop oversees his priests. He confirms by strengthening and deepening the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to confer an apostolic spirit to those being confirmed. He is apostle and oversees all persons and their care within the geographical boundaries of his diocese.

Priests and bishops receive stipends. No one person has ownership of anything. No one is making any money per se. The laity support the livelihood of the clerics and church through the work of their own hands through contributions.

Religious order priests – there are many, but most famous are Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, etc., have their own superior generals based in Rome who are voted in by members of their religious institute. They have international and national jurisdictions. There are priestly religious, and male and female religious that are in the active apostolate like in schools, or those who are contemplative that live in cloisters and live in prayer for God and the intentions of people. They also are under the jurisdiction of the bishop to being invited to serve within the bishop’s diocese.

The incorporation into the life of Christ is not dependent on one’s association of church. Baptism is the Catholic rite of incorporation that is practice by both Catholics and non-Catholics alike with the exception, correct me, of Baptists. So in essence, any non-Catholic congregation using the Catholic rite of baptism is baptizing its members into the Body of Christ and into the Catholic Church but as separated brethren.

You cannot wash off baptism. It is there forever. The most common place of unity and participation is Bible study and the prayer of the Our Father.

You do not witness a priest criticizing other denominations. The focus of Sunday worship, as Catholicism is based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the new life He gives us, is indeed Christ. We are there once a week to grow in Christ. We receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ Who unites us to each other, and then we go out to serve. We learn the Bible at Mass. It takes 3 years, they call them cycles, for us to cover the entire Bible.

Week day Masses cover times and themes of the liturgical year, the saints and other special feast days. Some priests will give a homily then ask those communicants to share. Others give a homily, people reflect, and then continues on with the Mass. So Catholics can be sustained daily, if they make the effort, of being fed through Scripture and the Eucharist almost every day of the week, but most people are unable to come. Those attending usually develop a fine sensitivity to spiritual matters and events, and additional prayers for people they know in the world are openly prayed for here at daily Mass.

 

[KathleenGee]

Church can be defined on different levels.

You can see a building where people worship and that is called a church. A church to a Catholic in that context is called a parish. What makes a parish is the pastor appointed by the bishop, as was done in ancient times. The second most important person in the parish is the parish secretary…This secretary documents and keeps records of all sacramentalized Catholics. Parish records are among the best and most accurate and of greatest help in this country that parallel dental records in id’ing a person. The other that is necessary to found a parish is a council that helps the pastor with funds and contributions. The pastor has defined boundaries that comprise his parish. He is pastor not only of Catholics but cares through prayers and offerings, but every person living in his parochial boundaries. A pastor may have an assistant priest called a parochial vicar.

Parishes might form vicariates. Vicariates are where you have a satellite of parishes and the pastors and other representatives of the parish meet in shared concerns regarding the goings on and needs of their geographical region.

The local church is the diocese. The bishop is the head of the diocese. The bishop is the successor to the apostles. He has the same power in Christ as the original apostles did, but he conforms to the spirit of today. He reports to the Holy Father. He also represents the faith of all Catholic believers. He participates in episcopal conferences similar to vicariates, but conferences are comprised of bishops. He cares for all matters that happen in his diocese. The bishop ‘makes’ priests; the bishop is the one who ordains a man to the sacramental priesthood. The Catholic Church has lay ministry, but the sacramental priesthood is the ministry of the Word and Sacraments. The bishop oversees his priests. He confirms by strengthening and deepening the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to confer an apostolic spirit to those being confirmed. He is apostle and oversees all persons and their care within the geographical boundaries of his diocese.

Priests and bishops receive stipends. No one person has ownership of anything. No one is making any money per se. The laity support the livelihood of the clerics and church through the work of their own hands through contributions.

Religious order priests – there are many, but most famous are Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, etc., have their own superior generals based in Rome who are voted in by members of their religious institute. They have international and national jurisdictions. There are priestly religious, and male and female religious that are in the active apostolate like in schools, or those who are contemplative that live in cloisters and live in prayer for God and the intentions of people. They also are under the jurisdiction of the bishop to being invited to serve within the bishop’s diocese.

The incorporation into the life of Christ is not dependent on one’s association of church. Baptism is the Catholic rite of incorporation that is practice by both Catholics and non-Catholics alike with the exception, correct me, of Baptists. So in essence, any non-Catholic congregation using the Catholic rite of baptism is baptizing its members into the Body of Christ and into the Catholic Church but as separated brethren.

You cannot wash off baptism. It is there forever. The most common place of unity and participation is Bible study and the prayer of the Our Father.

You do not witness a priest criticizing other denominations. The focus of Sunday worship, as Catholicism is based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the new life He gives us, is indeed Christ. We are there once a week to grow in Christ. We receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ Who unites us to each other, and then we go out to serve. We learn the Bible at Mass. It takes 3 years, they call them cycles, for us to cover the entire Bible.

Week day Masses cover times and themes of the liturgical year, the saints and other special feast days. Some priests will give a homily then ask those communicants to share. Others give a homily, people reflect, and then continues on with the Mass. So Catholics can be sustained daily, if they make the effort, of being fed through Scripture and the Eucharist almost every day of the week, but most people are unable to come. Those attending usually develop a fine sensitivity to spiritual matters and events, and additional prayers for people they know in the world are openly prayed for here at daily Mass.

 

[Metamorphoo]

That’s very Catholic of you to say that!

Actually, the Catholic Church’s stance regarding the position of non-Catholic Christians and their relationship to the RCC has changed dramatically since Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, popes had issued the following:

Pope Innocent III --4th Lateran Council: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.”

Pope Innocent’s remark may not phase your thinking, but I think the statements of Popes Boniface VIII and Eugene IV shed further insight as to how that statement was intended to mean:

Pope Boniface VIII–Unam Sanctam (One Holy).–“Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins…In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Ephesians 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed…Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

[Note: It is clear that Orthodox, Protestants, Messianic Jews do not submit to papal authority, which the pope stated is “absolutely necessary” for salvation. Unum Sanctum is often listed by the RCC as one of the “infallibles” papal declarations. If you accept the part that there is no salvation or forgiveness outside of the RCC, then you have to accept submission to the pope as essential for salvation as well.]

Pope Eugene IV–from “Cantate Domino”–“It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

[Who are "separated brethren,’ the term typically used by the RCC in reference to non-Catholic Christians? Are they not, from an RCC perspective, “heretics” or at the very least, “schismatics”–no different from pagans?]

My point: These pre-Vatican II papal declarations made it clear that you had to be a card-carrying member of the RCC in order to be saved. Vatican II changed the definition of what it meant to be “Catholic”–and thereby granted RC church membership to non-Roman Catholic Christians (althoughly imperfectly joined).

So no, it was not “very Catholic” of me to say what I said in my post, when you consider papal declarations prior to Vatican II.

 

[Hisalone]

kathleen when you copy and paste please give source.