A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

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Actually, the Catholic Church’s stance regarding the position of non-Catholic Christians and their relationship to the RCC has changed dramatically since Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, popes had issued the following:

Pope Innocent III --4th Lateran Council: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.”

Pope Innocent’s remark may not phase your thinking, but I think the statements of Popes Boniface VIII and Eugene IV shed further insight as to how that statement was intended to mean:

Pope Boniface VIII–Unam Sanctam (One Holy).–“Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins…In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Ephesians 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed…Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

[Note: It is clear that Orthodox, Protestants, Messianic Jews do not submit to papal authority, which the pope stated is “absolutely necessary” for salvation. Unum Sanctum is often listed by the RCC as one of the “infallibles” papal declarations. If you accept the part that there is no salvation or forgiveness outside of the RCC, then you have to accept submission to the pope as essential for salvation as well.]

Pope Eugene IV–from “Cantate Domino”–“It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
[Who are "separated brethren,’ the term typically used by the RCC in reference to non-Catholic Christians? Are they not, from an RCC perspective, “heretics” or at the very least, “schismatics”–no different from pagans?]

My point: These pre-Vatican II papal declarations made it clear that you had to be a card-carrying member of the RCC in order to be saved. Vatican II changed the definition of what it meant to be “Catholic”–and thereby granted RC church membership to non-Roman Catholic Christians (althoughly imperfectly joined).

So no, it was not “very Catholic” of me to say what I said in my post, when you consider papal declarations prior to Vatican II.

And there are still some conservative Catholics that have not gotten the memo.:rolleyes:
 
You hit that nail on the head! If Hisalone were to admit that the Church had the power to baptize and transform every single Pagan image and practice into service to God, she would have to become Catholic!
The children of Isreal constantly drifted into idolatry. Paganism is the worship of other “gods” Catholics no matter how hard they try cannot “baptise” and transform “other gods” and idolatry. Idolatry is whatever you hold up in the presence of God that is not God.
 
The children of Isreal constantly drifted into idolatry. Paganism is the worship of other “gods” Catholics no matter how hard they try cannot “baptise” and transform “other gods” and idolatry. Idolatry is whatever you hold up in the presence of God that is not God.
Not quite. If we are holding up an offering to God we are not ‘idolizing’ what we offer. If we were to view what we ‘held in the presence of God’ as a ‘different God’, that would be idolatry. Since we don’t do anything of the kind, we aren’t idolizing statues or saints etc.

When you stand in Church holding your Bible out before you in the presence of God, are you ‘idolizing’ the Bible?
 
Hisalone,

What I defined as Church is official Catholic ecclesiology – canon law.
 
Catholicism is based on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

He broke the power of death, sin, paganism, unforgiveness, bondage…The Lord is restoring all things, renewing all things, and bringing all to Himself…There are those who resist.

As a Catholic, and fed by the Word Made Flesh – the Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist at Mass, I pray the Lord live out through my being, extend His presence wherever I am, whatever I do, and when we drive around, I pray Him into the world around me, to bless it, and renew it.

Jesus has power over all paganism. It might not look like it. But we have to cooperate with Him. With Christ, each day is a new day, and we can hope in His forgiveness. This is the teaching and proclamation of Catholic priests.

Pagan people can discern God in the world around them, usually through nature. St. Paul speaks of this in his letter to the Romans. So people can chose goodness and become more humane, or they can choose evil and become incarnate devils.

If we believe in Jesus, if we proclaim Him as Lord of our life, then we are also obligated to take that profession of faith into every aspect of our life, to have Christ be victor over all things, to consecrate our daily lives and all events and surroundings to Him for His presence to permeate good over evil.

We are obligated to seek the truth in all things with a clean and pure heart and work with Jesus to build up the world in faith, hope and charity. These are probably the greatest signs of Jesus in one’s heart…Catholic teaching…the greatest virtues are faith, hope, and charity. When people pray the rosary, after the Apostles Creed professing our faith in the Lord, and then the Our Father, we pray with Mary for the increase of these most Christian virtues every day. Mary is the greatest and purist Christian and she is not focused on herself but us, and wants us to grow in virtue to become more united with Jesus. The perfections of Jesus Christ are His virtues.

There are many aspects to being a Catholic…we are sacramentalized with baptism, penance, the Eucharist, confirmation, ordination or marriage, healing. We have the daily Sacrifice of the Mass. We have the liturgical year and the reflections each day brings. We have the spirituality of Scripture and the many diverse spiritualities experienced in a universal church all over the world. Our unity of many peoples is found in our diversity based on Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. We have canon law and jurisdictions.

The Universal Catholic Church is not a building, but a breathing, living, Spirit fed being where God has come to live among us in the Tabernacle lighted by the sanctuary light.
Our churches are adorned in beauty to give the Lord His due. We want the best for His Divine presence always available to us. He waits for us in love in the chapel. We have the communion of saints who in heaven ‘watch us with a thousand eyes’, and pray constantly for us on earth in love. We have our theologians who help us understand the Word of God in the times we live in for today. We have individuals and religious orders who serve Christ by their apostolates or through those praying for the world in a cloister with little possessions but the Lord Himself.

Jesus is Who we focus on, He is the one Who nourishes us, not the Holy Father or the priests or church buildings. The Catholic Church is essentially mystical.
 
Actually, the Catholic Church’s stance regarding the position of non-Catholic Christians and their relationship to the RCC has changed dramatically since Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, popes had issued the following:
That is a very ill-informed statement.

Your position has been proposed, and skewered and put to rest (ad nauseum) multiple times on these threads:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=371081

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=360760

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=451507

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=441873
 
Hisalone,

You have to read former documents in light of the times to whom they were addressing…and also know what the actual errors against the true nature of Jesus and His mission were. Very serious. Heresy can lead people away from Christ…Just as bad clerics do.

Revelations speak of the locusts with effeminate long hair — those creatures represented heresy. I see people all the time coming on to CAF who are spiritually afflicted by heretical ideas by indoctrination of falsehoods taught them by bad teachers – people who deliberately misrepresent the Church. No matter how much people try to explain the truth of Catholicism the hold on these people tell me they are in spiritual bondage.
 
Actually he is not ill informed. Catholics continually practice revisionist history. Anyone ( I wont do it for you) can see how the RCC has changed its stand on this issue (and others) throughout the years.
 
Hisalone,

What I defined as Church is official Catholic ecclesiology – canon law.
It is a common courtesy on internet message boards to credit whatever source you derive your info from when one copies and pastes. This can be done easily by including the link on the post itself.
Thanks Kathleen
 
Hisalone,

You have to read former documents in light of the times to whom they were addressing…and also know what the actual errors against the true nature of Jesus and His mission were. Very serious. Heresy can lead people away from Christ…Just as bad clerics do.

Revelations speak of the locusts with effeminate long hair — those creatures represented heresy. I see people all the time coming on to CAF who are spiritually afflicted by heretical ideas by indoctrination of falsehoods taught them by bad teachers – people who deliberately misrepresent the Church. No matter how much people try to explain the truth of Catholicism the hold on these people tell me they are in spiritual bondage.
Kathleen have you ever read church history outside of Catholic sources?
 
The Catholic Church has the fullness of salvation and its understanding of Jesus Christ comes to us from the apostles. You have heard that repeatedly, Hisalone.

To reject the truth of Jesus…vs witnessing scandal in the church and not believing in the Church, then God alone will judge. The Catholic and Orthodox have shared beliefs for the past 1,500 years, shared beliefs stated liberally here–, but when the Protestant Reformation came about, Sola Scriptura was now the guide … personal interpretation…and really no more Church.

Divorce then gradually became a part of Christian culture…the breakdown of families as well. Sin is the break in relationship with God and people.
 
Actually he is not ill informed. Catholics continually practice revisionist history. Anyone ( I wont do it for you) can see how the RCC has changed its stand on this issue (and others) throughout the years.
And if we have carefully searched through the history of Christianity and don’t find those ‘changes’ you speak of?

What then?

Obviously if you say "it’s changed’ and I say “it hasn’t”, one of us is wrong and one is right.

As you have seen from the above links, we can make a very clear case that the Church’s teachings on faith and morals have not ‘changed’.

I mean, hon, I’m 53. It’s not like I’ve spent those years living on Mars or something. I’ve read plenty, and not ‘just’ the ‘indoctrination’ of the Church. I’ve read the "protestant indoctrinations’ as well.

I’m as open to Christ as any Christian. I pray as fervently for the guidance of the Spirit as any Christian.

So why do my conclusions differ from yours?
 
Not quite. If we are holding up an offering to God we are not ‘idolizing’ what we offer. If we were to view what we ‘held in the presence of God’ as a ‘different God’, that would be idolatry. Since we don’t do anything of the kind, we aren’t idolizing statues or saints etc.

When you stand in Church holding your Bible out before you in the presence of God, are you ‘idolizing’ the Bible?
People, places and things and even imaginations can be idol. What someone holds up higher (that which is more important) (those opinions whom one values more than) God can be an idol. God is Spirit. When instead of turning to the Spirit of God to pray or to worship we turn to an object to pray in front of we have made that object an idol.
 
People, places and things and even imaginations can be idol. What someone holds up higher (that which is more important) (those opinions whom one values more than) God can be an idol. God is Spirit. When instead of turning to the Spirit of God to pray or to worship we turn to an object to pray in front of we have made that object an idol.
But for the gazillionth time, my dear woman, we are not turning to the saints etc. **instead of GOD. **

We are not placing them higher than God, or even on a level ‘equal to’ God.

**Do you place the Bible as 'equal to God?" (I hope you don’t). **
 
Hisalone, what are you referring to? Also, I do not have good computer skills. What I wrote regarding what is church is what I personally composed. I am a professionally trained catechist through my diocese.

Yes, I have read other sources of Church history as well as knowing that the Catholic Church is very honest about its own sins, and it is an open book for anyone who wants to know.

Have you ever heard of Pave the Way Organization? It is Jewish. It was intending to take on the Catholic Church, went in to acquire documents. The more it studied the church, the more good it saw. They ended up having a most positive understanding of the Church and do not understand why the Church does not defend itself more.

In regards to your other comments, we do not baptize things. There is no idolatry in the Catholic Church. That is your spin. You own that. And this also makes me want to ask you why do you continue here when you reject the truth about the Church? Where did you get your anti-Catholic beliefs?

You ask for sources…what are your sources for your anti-catholicism? and what to do you hope to gain by staying on CAF?
 
Is that so? Does that mean you believe Catholics must be evangelized because they are not part of the Body?

Doesn’t that make them part of the Body?

The truth is that one cannot be Catholic unless they do this. If they say they are Catholic, and have not, then they are practicing only a form of godliness, without the power thereof. They do not meet the requirement to be Catholic. They may think they are Catholic, but they are really not.

This is not your judgement to make. It is not for any of us to make. In your opinion they may not be, but only God can judge the heart.

It is only human arrogance that would presume to draw such a conclusion about another person. We are not even qualified to judge ourselves.

I can’t argue with that! 😃

However, one can have a relationship with the Body as well as the Head. The two are not contradictory.
One can and will have a relationship with the body if they have a relationship with the Head.
However one can have a relationship with the body but not the Head. By haveing that relationship does not make one “saved” nor “born again”
What does it mean to be saved or born again. Scripture is fairly clear on the subject. If someone is does not fullfill the scriptural requirements then it is not a judgement on my part. The failure is for that person not to meet the requirements that God Himself has outlined.
You say one cannot be a Catholic unless one believes in Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as Lord and Savior and earnestly attempt to follow Him and still remain a Catholic. Yet Catholic churches are full of these folks (Protestant churches also)
 
But for the gazillionth time, my dear woman, we are not turning to the saints etc. **instead of GOD. **

We are not placing them higher than God, or even on a level ‘equal to’ God.

**Do you place the Bible as 'equal to God?" (I hope you don’t). **
Why do you say I am a woman. I am not.
Everytime you pick up a rosary you are turning to Mary instead of God.
The Bible is Gods word. God places His word higher than His name.
As Luther so elequantly stated No pope nor church council has the authority of the bible.
 
Sola Scriptura means alone…without Church.

Idolatry is a condition in the heart more than anything and we can make idols of our own perceptions as well where we make ourselves gods and we are always warned not to judge…that is only God’s domain.

I am thankful I am in a church because I am a social being, and I know that God Himself is the author of creation and I respect it.
 
Hisalone, what are you referring to? Also, I do not have good computer skills. What I wrote regarding what is church is what I personally composed. I am a professionally trained catechist through my diocese.

Yes, I have read other sources of Church history as well as knowing that the Catholic Church is very honest about its own sins, and it is an open book for anyone who wants to know.

Have you ever heard of Pave the Way Organization? It is Jewish. It was intending to take on the Catholic Church, went in to acquire documents. The more it studied the church, the more good it saw. They ended up having a most positive understanding of the Church and do not understand why the Church does not defend itself more.

In regards to your other comments, we do not baptize things. There is no idolatry in the Catholic Church. That is your spin. You own that. And this also makes me want to ask you why do you continue here when you reject the truth about the Church? Where did you get your anti-Catholic beliefs?

You ask for sources…what are your sources for your anti-catholicism? and what to do you hope to gain by staying on CAF?
I will apologize to you. I thought that the work you composed on what is the church was someone elses rather than yours. I will read it and make a comment as I know that Catholics and nonCatholics define “church” very differently.
as for baptizing things that is not my phrase but the poster who I responded to.
 
Why do you say I am a woman. I am not.
Everytime you pick up a rosary you are turning to Mary instead of God.
The Bible is Gods word. God places His word higher than His name.
As Luther so elequantly stated No pope nor church council has the authority of the bible.
Every time I pick up the rosary I am going to God through His Mother. Considering He chose to come through her to us, and He does not ‘change’, this is perfectly acceptable. The rosary is absolutely Christ-centric. Everything about it has Christ as the ultimate aim. Even the Hail Mary (which is taken directly from Luke 2) has as the ‘pivotal aim’ of the prayer :the fruit of (thy) womb, JESUS.

God does not ‘separate’ Himself from Mary (or from us); why would we attempt to pull Mary away from the Lord whom she bore and with whom she is now eternally joined in Heaven?

Where exactly do you get the “God places his bible higher than his name?” What a strange statement. And NOT one I recall from Scripture. This must be a man-made teaching you’ve chosen, His.

BTW, excuse me. . .Other posters had used “her” in speaking of you. If you’re a man, my apology. As a woman with a ‘neutral’ user name, I don’t get annoyed when I’m addressed as ‘him’ or ‘sir’ but I do inform people that I’m ‘feminine’ so that they will know in future.

Well, of course, if Martin LUTHER said something, you have to accept it because he said it in the Bible. . .no wait, that isn’t right. . .

So you want to claim ‘bible alone’ (which isn’t Biblical anyway) but you quote Luther as an authority AND you make out of the blue statements about how God put his Bible 'higher than his name". . .

That is still one of the strangest sentences I have ever seen. Where DID You get it?
 
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