A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[PRmerger]

I don’t want to go off topic, but may I respectfully ask why so many people state, “Believe ON the Lord Jesus?” I always picture poor Jesus lying on the ground with a bunch of people standing on Him when I see that phrase.

Why isn’t it “believe IN the Lord Jesus?” Maybe I’m just an old fogey at 53, but that is the phrasing that I was taught, and I don’t know why or when it changed to this ‘on’ jazz.

'zactly! I find it a strange expression as well.

 

[ForeverGrace]

Because it is a truth revealed by God.

I can imagine some of Jesus’ disciples asking him questions such as yours. And I can imagine his answer: because I have spoken it.

Clearly, then, you are free not to post but just lurk. Of course, your comments are always welcome, but I find it peculiar that you would come to a forum–which exists in order to provide a means for dialogue/discourse/discussion–and then say it’s pointless to dialogue.

Actually my friend, I wouldn’t ask Jesus about Purgatory because it’s not scriptural in my view. But on the 1 chance in a zillion that I’m wrong, I can’t see any point in arguing over it because we’ll both end up eventually in Heaven. For every verse you can try to use to show the state (or existence) of Purgatory, I can find some that refute it. To what end?

I’m like almost any other Protestant in my departure on doctrine from Catholics. But I depart from most Protestants who don’t believe you are saved. I don’t believe that Jesus died just for Catholics or just Protestants. I think that’s narrow and unscriptural. Jesus came to earth for one reason, to save sinners. He instructed us to repent and believe upon Him. He freed us from the law and provided us with Grace. The rest aren’t essentials in my mind. They are instructive on Christian living, responsibility for ourselves and others.

However, I allow for the likelihood that I may be misinformed about what I think I have a sound knowledge of concerning the specifics of the Catholicism. I’m happy to learn from Catholics and I hold them in very high regard. I don’t let myself get carried away with church scandals or the like (as if only Catholics had a difficulty in that regard).

Again, it’s not about not having a dialogue. It’s about not adopting a superior attitude and disrespecting other people over their deeply held beliefs.

The Thread itself implies that Protestants come here to proselytize Catholics. I’m sure some do, but of course the ONLY reason to do that would be because a person felt that Catholocism was wrong and that the Protestant has to ride in on their white horse to save the Catholics from certain Hell.

I’m sorry if I don’t meet your expectations as a Protestant. But I’ve no doubt that if you love Jesus and accept that He shed his blood for you (and you don’t defiantly turn away), then you have the grace of Salvation that I have.

Blessings to you!

 

[PRmerger]

Actually my friend, I wouldn’t ask Jesus about Purgatory because it’s not scriptural in my view.

Where does Scripture say that you couldn’t ask Jesus something not in Scripture?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe that Jesus died just for Catholics or just Protestants. I think that’s narrow and unscriptural. Jesus came to earth for one reason, to save sinners. He instructed us to repent and believe upon Him. He freed us from the law and provided us with Grace.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that!

The rest aren’t essentials in my mind.

Again, FG, what verses tell you whether something is “essential” or not? (NB: I do not want verses which you believe are essential; I’d like to know how any Christian can read the Scriptures and tell what’s essential and what’s not. Please cite the chapter and verses which tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s not)

I don’t let myself get carried away with church scandals or the like (as if only Catholics had a difficulty in that regard).

Bless you for that fair-mindedness, FG!! :kiss4you:

I’m sorry if I don’t meet your expectations as a Protestant.

I’m not sure what I said that gives you the impression that you haven’t met my expectation as a Protestant.

Actually, I have NO expectations of Protestants–as there are over 40,000 different kinds of Protestants, I have no idea what you believe.

When you say that you’re “'like almost any other Protestant in [your] departure on doctrine from Catholics” that actually quite an unrevealing statement.

Since there’s an obscene number of variations of beliefs, how are we to know where your departure lies?

Do you believe in infant baptism? Baptism by immersion, sprinkling or in a river? In Jesus’ name only or using the Trinitarian forumula? Is it an ordinance or a sacrament?

Do you celebrate the Lord’s Supper monthly? Weekly? Using grape juice? Using tiny little cups or a common chalice?

Do you believe OSAS or can you lose your salvation?

Do you believe a man can divorce his wife and marry another?

Are we predestined for heaven? Are we predestined for hell?

See what I mean? Your saying you’re a Protestant reveals almost NOTHING about your beliefs.

Heck, I’ve been on these forums long enough to know you all can’t even agree on what’s an essential!

And I’ve never ever seen a Protestant quote me even one verse which answers my question: what verses in Scripture tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s not?

 

[ForeverGrace]

Dearest Christian Friend,

I’ve just spent well over an hour on this thread alone and the number of times I saw scripture actually quoted was shockingly low by either side. What I did observe as shockingly high, was a great deal of people baiting each other with illogical arguments. But to be fair, there were some people who did not resort to logical fallacies and presented themselves very well on both sides.

You seem determined to make me post in a way that you find apppropriate, and as you pointed out, I should just probably “lurk” if I have nothing to offer. I’m not quite sure why you feel the need to do this as I am not engaging in any Catholic bashing. I find it to be extremely unseemly for Christians to denigrate each other, which is why I don’t do it. I’m not morally or spiritually superior to Catholics and have never claimed to be so. But, I do know what I believe and why. I’m also trained in debate and I know when someone is trying to pin me down so they can return the volley with a ‘gotcha’ moment.

There is no state secret regarding the major areas where Catholics and Protestants part ways. Most everyone knows what they are and certainly, given the fact that the majority of members here are Catholic (in one form or another), it’s a given. For the sake of brevity, I’ll concede that you have listed them fairly comprehensively.

Let’s start with your first claim:

Actually, I have NO expectations of Protestants–as there are over 40,000 different kinds of Protestants, I have no idea what you believe.

Not true and it’s flat out wrong. Notice you framed your claim about the number of denominations as if it were a** ‘fact’**. I know it’s one of the central arguments Catholics use against Protestants, but sadly even some of your own Catholic Apologists have warned Catholics not to use it. Look up Ben Douglass’ article “Unsound sticks, or, Arguments Catholics Shouldn’t Use”

At the risk of being banned from this site for telling the truth, let’s see if this claim really holds up… shall we?

I’m well aware of the claims of people such as Tim Staples and Steve Ray quoting numbers that range from approximately 22,000 to one exact quote of 33,820. I have the audio clip if you would like to hear it.

Here is a lesson for us all. Whenever someone cites their sources (which they should do when quoting any kind of statistical data), they should actually read the entire source. I’ll not accuse anyone of dishonesty, but surely diligent attention to the source in this matter might have been a little more exhaustive. Both Staples and Ray quote the World Christian Encyclopedia. This is not the kind of book one would normally have lying around the house collecting dust. It’s huge and very expensive. I don’t know how authoritative it actually is, only that Ray and Staples both quoted it. I’ve also seen it myself and it’s not something one would carry around in a backpack. Since Ray and Staples both quoted it, I can only conclude that they found it authoritative.

On page 10 of the source it reads:

GLOBAL CHRISTIANITY
had
26,350 33,820 denominations/paradenominations
with
1,391,020 3,445,000 congregations/churches
composed of
1,130 1,888 million affiliated Christians

The first number is from 1970, the second from 2000. The two “global categorizations” offered are “denominationalism” and "post denominationalism the “denominations” included are in both lists. Further reading on the very page they cite, shows that this is not a listing of “denominations” that can be attributed directly to the Protestant Reformation. 21,990 of these denominations are in the “post-denominationalism” category, 11,830 in the denominational. Then one needs to see that the denominational number includes Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. The source lists 242 Roman Catholic denominations.

The source lists 781 “Orthodox” denominations (i.e., Eastern Orthodoxy), predicting 887 for 2025.

The source lists 242 “Roman Catholic” denominations for 2000, predicting 245 for 2025.

So tell me again, how many denominations are there out there? Do you have any proof that they predominantly arose from anything that can be attributed to Sola Scriptura? Is it fair to make this accusation against Protestants, if Catholics have 242 of their own denominations? Is the Magesterium responsible for that? It would seem so, if we want to apply to Catholicism, what we apply to Protestantism.

It sure appears to me that there is something very wrong with making a blanket statement about there being over 40.000 different kinds of Protestants.

Again, I know what I believe and I know why. I am not here to proselytize to Catholics. I’m here to learn from you because I actually respect Catholicism and learning more about it won’t hurt me a bit and certainly does not threaten me. *** I think we’d both agree that we know our Redeemer Lives!***

Forever in His Amazing Grace…

 

[PRmerger]

ISo tell me again, how many denominations are there out there?

I’d be happy to use any number–5? 5,000? 10,000?–if you will provide me with YOUR source, FG.

Otherwise, my number, 40,000 is as good as yours without any statistics to back it up.

 

[PRmerger]

For the sake of brevity, I’ll concede that you have listed them fairly comprehensively.

Absolutely not! I have not even begun to distill all of the different “partings of ways”. It’s simply obscene.

And all this after reading the very same Scriptures. (ok, give or take 7 books )

 

[PRmerger]

Again, ForeverGrace, what verses tell you whether something is “essential” or not? (NB: I do not want verses which you believe are essential; I’d like to know how any Christian can read the Scriptures and tell what’s essential and what’s not. Please cite the chapter and verses which tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s not).

 

[Dokimas]

EXCELLENT!! Then you are not a SS Christian! :extrahappy::dancing::clapping:

I hope, then, that you will accept that some of the Catholic doctrines, while not explicitly stated in the Scriptures, can be construed from them. Like the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Like purgatory. Like the Trinity…

Wait a minute!!! I didn’t say I didn’t hold to SS. I was responding directly to a direct, specific statement. Also, you didn’t finish my quote. The rest was quite important and should have clued you in that I was NOT going against SS.

No, I don’t see any Biblical reason for some of your doctrines; quite the opposite in some cases, like the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

[Rita88]

Churches that turn a blind eye to contraception, the mother of abortion, lack the moral clarity to speak authoritatively. I am glad your Chuch hasn’t caved on the issue.

I disagree on your approach to this. I don’t think any church has ‘authority’ other than being hearers and doers of the word. God has true authority, surely? I can’t say that either myself or the anglican church is anti-contraception, though… which means you probably do consider us to have ‘caved on the issue’. I truly long for more young people to wait until married before having sex; but we need to wake up and smell the coffee… that isn’t happening. Therefore, is it really ethical to say contraceptives are wrong; when you know it won’t necessarily put people off having pre-marital sex? More over is it ethical to allow these people to be exposed to life threatening STDs? I can’t answer for God. I don’t know whether contraception is right or wrong; but in my heart I can not see how we could possibly justify being anti-contraception. Anti-abortion, yes. Anti-contraception, no. Irresponsible sexual practice shatters lives; contraceptives can be a safety net. They prevent life threatening diseases; unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

I should say, I know I’ve put my neck on the block a bit with that response. I respect the Catholic point of view, but it doesn’t mirror my faith. It is quite deontological, and I think God looks to the well being of us all, not just to us abiding to scriptural or church law.

Everytime you pick up a rosary you are turning to Mary instead of God.
The Bible is Gods word. God places His word higher than His name.
As Luther so elequantly stated No pope nor church council has the authority of the bible.

Can I just point out, that there are other ways of praying a rosary other than Marian intercession, and so that point alone makes your statement about ‘everytime’ you pick up a rosary a little invalid. But that aside, it depends on your theology as to whether you turn to Mary instead of God. I have a great apreciation of Mary, heck you’ve got to be pretty special to give birth to the Emmanuel!

 

[Rita88]

So much of the dialoguing on CAF seeme to be between fundameantalists - Catholic fundamentalists who believe the Church is infallible and Protestant fundamentalists who believe the Bible is infallible.

 How about the millions of other Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, who believe that God alone is infallible, and that 'now we see through a glass darkly'. Personally, I think that ultimate knowledge is well beyond and above us (see Psalm 119). Many people are uncomfortable with this level of uncertainty so they embrace a rigid faith. Okay. Fine. Many of us, however, are comfortable trusting in God, seeking to follow Christ, but admitting that we don't have a monopoly on truth. We are ready to leave question marks here and there when it comes to doctrine.

It is very true that ultimate knowledge is beyond us; but by our very nature we are tempted by seeking out that knoweldge. I think I’ve said elsewhere in this thread that I love the Prayer of St. Anselm which places faith seeking understanding in balance.

One example. Mary. Was she ever virgin, always sinless, and deserves veneration, adoration, crowning, etc., as in Catholicism? Scriptures can be quoted, especially in the nativity narratives and the crucifixion narratives, that seem to elevate her. But the two other instances in the gospels where she appears almost sound as though she is not to be venerated. And if Mary is to be venerated, why does St. Paul write all those letters to the early churches, full of doctrine, and never once mention Mary?

But St. Paul is not exactly pro-women now, is he? We must remember the context. Also, it is quite apparent that not all of St. Paul’s doctrine is in harmony with Christ’s teaching and actions.

My feeling is that Christians should be free to lean in either direction. If they want to elevate Mary above every other human being, okay with me. If they feel - like most Protestants do - that she should be honored but not venerated, okay with me, too. It’s the attitude of ‘my church is the only true church’ that can be annoying and leads to pride, bigotry and even much worse in past history when thousands of devout people were executed because their doctrines diverged from the only acceptable ones. Even St. Thomas Aquinas favored capital punishment for heretics.

I agree - good point that we must accept that we must live in love with each others churches. We must remember the house with many rooms!

Frankly, most Catholics and Protestants I know agree with me. There’s an old hymn which begins: “You go to your church and I’ll go to mine, but let’s walk along together…” A good summary of what I consider a proper Christian attitude that I too often find lacking here on CAF.

I’ve never heard that hymn, where can I find it?

But I presume the human psyche of many needs the security that comes from religious surety, the notion that our group has the truth and thereby are ‘spiritually’ superior to those of other denominations and/or faiths. So dogmatists probably are forgiven in the long haul as long as they obey Jesus. When he was asked how to inherit eternal life - remember, the young lawyer asked him? - he cited love God and love one’s neighbor. Not a word about doctrine. He illustrated his point by giving the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaritans were heretics of their day, despised by Jews, who had different beliefs and had intermarried outside he tribe. If Jesus selected a Samaritan as an example, my conclusion would be that Jesus was far less interested in dogma than in helping one another.

Another good point. I think doctrine and dogma has its place though. It is like ‘practical guidance’ (practical that it puts the faith into practice), but certainly not worth all the quarrells. I enjoy talking about my points of view on here, and listening to others, but its certainly sad when fights break out. After all, if Christianity can not find some sense of harmony amongst our own denominations how can we ever spread peace in the outside world?

I can’t claim to know, but I would bet the store (if I owned one) on the anticipation that in heaven we will meet people of all sorts of faiths, even animists and probably even atheists. That’s the sort of God I believe in. “God is love…” He (she) looks at our hearts and not at our church connections, doctrines, or our view of scripture. We are saved by grace through a simple faith and not by details that usually are/were beyond our control. Most people follow generally along the pathway traveled by their parents. Will God condemn us for that? I don’t think so

.

I love the point which I have highlighted in bold. I certainly believe our actions matter, but I do believe that God isn’t going to hold against us something that we are sorry for and did at a time of weakness or when we didn’t know better. After all, perfection in unattainable by mankind: only God.

God bless all his children, of every creed, color and country, and forgive us for our spiritual arrogance, our trespasses, believing that we are among those with special possession of the truth. When I look at the heavens at night, my guess is that we’re all still extremely ignorant. Maybe a billion or more solar systems out there. So often our God is too small.

Amen! x

 

[PRmerger]

Wait a minute!!! I didn’t say I didn’t hold to SS. I was responding directly to a direct, specific statement. Also, you didn’t finish my quote. The rest was quite important and should have clued you in that I was NOT going against SS.

You say you’re not going against SS, Doki, but if you believe this:

SS teaches that the Bible interprets itself through the Holy Spirit. PLAIN and SIMPLE!!!

***yet can’t find a Scripture verse which says ***“The Bible interprets itself”, then you are not following Sola Scriptura.

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree on your approach to this. I don’t think any church has ‘authority’ other than being hearers and doers of the word. God has true authority, surely?

Clearly God has true authority. God is sovereign. No Christian here will contest you on that.

The question is, how do we know what God says?

For example, what does God say about embryonic stem cell research, Rita?

 

[Dokimas]

You say you’re not going against SS, Doki, but if you believe this:

***yet can’t find a Scripture verse which says ***“The Bible interprets itself”, then you are not following Sola Scriptura.

Did you look at the verses I quoted? They are verses that imply SS.​

Using your logic you don’t believe in the Trinity because it’s not in the Bible. Oh ye you has ST to tell you what to believe if it’s not in the Bible.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Can’t you see how silly this is?​

I’m responsible for what I believe; not for what anyone else believes. That being said, I’m responsible for sharing the Truth.

Your truth Doki… YOUR truth… remember that.

Matthew

 

[PRmerger]

Did you look at the verses I quoted? They are verses that imply SS.

Well, then, good! Because ALL Catholic teachings, while not explicitly stated in Scripture, are implied there.

I hope you allow Catholics the same liberty to “imply” teachings that you give yourself!

 

[Dokimas]

Your truth Doki… YOUR truth… remember that.

Matthew

To the degree you are saying I am Jesus’ and He is mine and that He is the TRUTH, I hope you’re correct. Jesus is my Truth and I’m His, IMO which I hope is His as well.

 

[Dokimas]

Well, then, good! Because ALL Catholic teachings, while not explicitly stated in Scripture, are implied there.

I hope you allow Catholics the same liberty to “imply” teachings that you give yourself!

I try to live by the saying, ‘you (and I and the CC) are welcome to your opinion, even if it is wrong.’

 

[guanophore]

B]

We are not at liberty to allow you to post falsehoods here and say nothing. From a Catholic point of view, it is a sin.

 

[Rita88]

Clearly God has true authority. God is sovereign. No Christian here will contest you on that.

The question is, how do we know what God says?

For example, what does God say about embryonic stem cell research, Rita?

An interesting question which none of us can answer, yet. But this wasn’t actually my point as such. My point was in response to the consideration that the person I replied to had said that a church that had ‘caved on one issue’ (ie. had some allowance or acceptance of it) would lack moral clarity and could not hold authority. That seems like a big leap to me. Also my comment was with reference to contraception and how if we hear a Gospel of Love then what should we do to spread and live out that Truth of Godly love?

I think any one who examines morals or ethics carefully knows there is never any of the afforementioned clarity; especially if we are sensitive to the context that they are to be excercised in.

The appropriate question would probably be better phrased as If I use Christ as my lens, [ie. we consider his work and words to inform current or future situations] how do I believe my faith compels me to behave? It would be precisely this type of question that allows us to learn more about God in our own personal relationship with Him (perhaps better referred to as ‘Ordinary Theology’). Often, we don’t scripture that is directly relevant to modern ethical dilemas, and when we have ones which are relevant or do translate well to those ethical dilemas we need to also be conscious of the context, culture and the author of them.

I was very cautious in my previous response, and deliberately commented from a personal point of view… I often remark that I do not have the answers, but in light of abc I believe xyz. This isn’t unusual, most people do this on some level… but I say this to highlight the idea that I can’t say what God physically “says” only how my understanding and His Spirit helps me (as an individual Christian) to understand things.