A question for the ladies: Friend Zone

[Actaeon]

Get a hobby you’re good at - does being a gamer, an artist and a cosplayer count?

Don’t ask if your hobbies count. A successful relationship isn’t about modifying who you genuinely are to match someone else’s desires. That will only lead to insincerity and a lack of self-validation.

If you like being a gamer, an artist, and a cosplayer, then that’s your hobbies. What you’re going to need to look for is a girl who appreciates those things, not find hobbies you don’t enjoy just to please some girl.

If you’re not being yourself, your relationship is going to crash and burn horrendously.

 

[Crescentinus]

Don’t ask if your hobbies count. A successful relationship isn’t about modifying who you genuinely are to match someone else’s desires. That will only lead to insincerity and a lack of self-validation.

If you like being a gamer, an artist, and a cosplayer, then that’s your hobbies. What you’re going to need to look for is a girl who appreciates those things, not find hobbies you don’t enjoy just to please some girl.

If you’re not being yourself, your relationship is going to crash and burn horrendously.

Been there, done that.
The problem here in Manila is that there aren’t that many women who appreciate art, cosplay, really good video games (not some FaceBook games, mind you), political issues or philosophy.

 

[Actaeon]

Been there, done that.
The problem here in Manila is that there aren’t that many women who appreciate art, cosplay, really good video games (not some FaceBook games, mind you), political issues or philosophy.

There may not be very many of them, but then again, there aren’t many women anywhere who are TRULY going to be compatible with you in the long run either. Just because you have a smaller pool to select from does not mean that you need to change yourself or pretend to be something you’re not in order to get a date. Start being selective and looking for that rare girl who appreciates what you enjoy and is a good match for you!

Dates will come when you know who you are, appreciate your own value, and don’t need a relationship to feel like you’re doing well. In other words, healthy relationships come when you don’t NEED a relationship in order to be healthy.

 

[Allegra]

Been there, done that.
The problem here in Manila is that there aren’t that many women who appreciate art, cosplay, really good video games (not some FaceBook games, mind you), political issues or philosophy.

Do you want a woman or a playmate? My husband and I enjoy lots of different hobbies. Is there any reason that you can’t play a video game in the living room while your lady friend reads a book? I wouldn’t worry about finding a girl with the exact same interests you have, because you will always find something special to do together if she’s the right one.

 

[chevalier]

I was mid way typing through a long response with links to five different studies showing differences in the way genders approach cross-sex friendship, and then I realized that I really don’t feel like arguing the point.

Your choice.

What is it? three? Four? different females who have come on and validated what I said, while it’s the guys who are saying the bit about “nuh uh, it’s the girls who are dishonoring me and friendzoning me inexplicably!”

Four? Five? Out of how many? Agreeing to what extent? And if you see my post in the light you’ve just mentioned then there’s little in the way of argument possible for us.

(and, side note: claiming someone is exaggerating simply because they use a strong vocabulary to elaborate a point is a logical fallacy).

Actually not, while using emotional vocabulary to make a point actually is.

There may not be very many of them, but then again, there aren’t many women anywhere who are TRULY going to be compatible with you in the long run either. Just because you have a smaller pool to select from does not mean that you need to change yourself or pretend to be something you’re not in order to get a date. Start being selective and looking for that rare girl who appreciates what you enjoy and is a good match for you!

+1

 

[teresadeavila]

More often than not, a man is stuck in friend zone b/c he didn’t have the guts to ask her out. Took my best friend in law school 3 yrs before we dated. He was too chicken to ask me out for 3 whole years!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

 

[ShanaA1984]

More often than not, a man is stuck in friend zone b/c he didn’t have the guts to ask her out. Took my best friend in law school 3 yrs before we dated. He was too chicken to ask me out for 3 whole years!

This.

I think I’ll join you

 

[Actaeon]

Actually not, while using emotional vocabulary to make a point actually is.

Just for the informative nature of what certain logical fallacies are:

Actually, the logical fallacy you were looking for is “judgemental language”, not appeal to emotion.

And where you’re wrong is that for BOTH judgemental language or appeal to emotion, the judgement or the appeal is one of the premises, because false premises are what lead to false conclusions. Where you err is that the part you construe as judgemental language is actually my CONCLUSION. In other words, my argument looks like this:

P1) Guys who are nice but not good behave as if they can buy female affection
P2) People who attempt to buy female affection are engaging in a form of prostitution
C) Guys who are nice but not good are engaging in a form of prostitution.

Where you introduced a logical fallacy, aside from attacking a conclusion rather than the premise, is by engaging in a bit o’ red herring (a type of ad hominem)

To wit, the argument:
P1) this person uses evocative language
P2) All people using evocative language are wrong
C) therefore his argument is false

But let’s say that I argued that Hitler should be stopped because he’s a dirty, lying, violent, murderous scumbag…

The simple fact that I used evocative language, even as one of my premises here (which I did NOT do in the first place), does not change the fact that Hitler should be stopped.

In other words, your “logical syllogism” relies on a false premise: that ALL conclusions involving evocative language or based on premises which involve evocative language must necessarily be false.

 

[Kelfa28]

What would you say is the most frequent reason why that happens?

Well…given my own personal experience…there could be several reasons.

I dated a number of men before I met my husband. Just dates here and there…nothing more, and I friend-zoned a vast number of them.

A number of times it was girlfriends or my sister or her husband or other friend’s husbands that would set me up with their friends and, while it wasn’t a blind date, I wouldn’t know the guy very well before I met him.
We’d go out on a date or two and I’d realize that I didn’t want to start relationships with them. They were nice and fun but not my “type” and to avoid complications…I’d politely let them know I wasn’t interested in a relationship.

Specifically…I dated a guy from my BIL’s band. He had a huge crush on me and wanted to take me out.
After one date…I found out he was 24 and a recovering drug addict/alcoholic. Granted he had been sober for 2 years…but it was quite a lot of baggage I wasn’t ready or willing to handle. But he was funny and made me laugh and friendly…plus he was a good friend of my BIL and I didn’t want to rock the boat. So we stayed friends…though he was disappointed.

 

[Litcrit]

Still absorbing the definition of the verb “to friend zone.”

I’m not sure I get it and I’m not sure I function in this way.

When I meet someone, there’s potential sexual attraction / chemistry / tension or there isn’t.

I can control the tension and wait for it to go away and then purely be friends with someone not interested in me (yes, I have been “friend-zoned” too - if the guy was really interested in “just” being friends, I was fine with it - I truly value friendship). Sexual attraction does pass, as does infatuation and all sorts of romantic feelings. It might take a bit of time, but if the person is worth it, you can later develop an actual friendship.

If there’s no chemistry at all, I can’t make it happen. I tried once with a really good friend, and kissing him felt like incest to me. Another time, it was after the very first date with a guy who was in every way “my type.” We kissed and WE BOTH FELT like kissing a sibling! It was eery. We decided to see each other as friends after that and we did.

 

[1cor1313]

Yes, I have friendzoned a guy. I actually really really liked him, but because he didn’t show any interest in me except friendship at the time, I had to force myself to think of him only as a friend. So now I do…and now he’s dropping hints, but I can’t get past the friend zone in my mind anymore.

I think half the time it’s just a lack of good timing!

 

[Crescentinus]

There may not be very many of them, but then again, there aren’t many women anywhere who are TRULY going to be compatible with you in the long run either. Just because you have a smaller pool to select from does not mean that you need to change yourself or pretend to be something you’re not in order to get a date. Start being selective and looking for that rare girl who appreciates what you enjoy and is a good match for you!

Dates will come when you know who you are, appreciate your own value, and don’t need a relationship to feel like you’re doing well. In other words, healthy relationships come when you don’t NEED a relationship in order to be healthy.

That’s why I discriminate!

How ironic and paradoxical.

 

[Crescentinus]

Do you want a woman or a playmate? My husband and I enjoy lots of different hobbies. Is there any reason that you can’t play a video game in the living room while your lady friend reads a book? I wouldn’t worry about finding a girl with the exact same interests you have, because you will always find something special to do together if she’s the right one.

What I saying is that she should not look down on my interests and hobbies. She may not like it, but she should not treat me as some lowly piece of garbage simply because of my interests.

 

[ack]

Still absorbing the definition of the verb “to friend zone.”

I’m not sure I get it and I’m not sure I function in this way.

When I meet someone, there’s potential sexual attraction / chemistry / tension or there isn’t.

I can control the tension and wait for it to go away and then purely be friends with someone not interested in me (yes, I have been “friend-zoned” too - if the guy was really interested in “just” being friends, I was fine with it - I truly value friendship). Sexual attraction does pass, as does infatuation and all sorts of romantic feelings. It might take a bit of time, but if the person is worth it, you can later develop an actual friendship.

If there’s no chemistry at all, I can’t make it happen. I tried once with a really good friend, and kissing him felt like incest to me. Another time, it was after the very first date with a guy who was in every way “my type.” We kissed and WE BOTH FELT like kissing a sibling! It was eery. We decided to see each other as friends after that and we did.

The usual definition of “friend-zone” is a situation where the woman feels like there is chemistry, but she feels the chemistry disappear due to spending time with the man in a friendly, non-romantic context . After relating to the man in a friendly (non-romantic) way, he starts feeling “like a brother”, and she’s no longer able to view him romantically.

Simply turning down a guy because there was never any chemistry isn’t “friend-zoning”; it’s just a normal rejection. The term “friend-zone” was invented to describe this very specific situation, which men often discuss.

The implication of “friend-zoning” is that, if the guy had only made a move sooner, a successful relationship would have resulted. The guy sets a romantic (rather than a friendly) tone from the very beginning, so the woman never has a chance to view him “like a brother”. This is why guys talk about getting “friend-zoning” enough to invent a term for it – we agonize over the proper length of time to know a woman (in a group context) before asking her on a date. Getting “friend-zoned” is the result of waiting too long, while the girl might “freak out” if you ask her too soon.

(PS: I’m not convinced that the phenomenon of “friend-zoning” is common. I think guys erroneously settle on “friend-zoning” as a way to retrospectively explain their past romantic failures.)

 

[ack]

The following two posters have it exactly right:

No, the question refers to a mentality (or perceived mentality) among women that if they are friends with a guy, they won’t date him (whereas, if they weren’t friends with a guy, they might have dated him). This known as the “friend zone.”

Example: Boy likes girl. Boy befriends girl. Boy asks girl out, but girl says “Oh, don’t be silly, you’re such a good friend!” Bam! Friend-zoned.

Versus: Boy likes girl. Boy asks girl out. Flattered by his attention and attraction, girl accepts. Score.

The idea is that which of these two possibilities plays out determines on how the woman “friend zones” a guy that she would otherwise be attracted to. I really do see this happen all the time, even if it never happens that way with me. I actually got “friend zoned” by a guy when I was younger. It sucks.

This is exactly right. For me, guys never moved from the “potential love interest” zone TO the “friend” zone. You basically start out in one place and that’s where you stand and will usually always stand. Occasionally you can move from “friends” to “more than friends”, usually when you get to know someone closer and in different contexts and situations, but the reverse is rare.

Other than those two, none of the responses to this thread address the “friend-zoning” phenomenon that I believe the OP was asking about. That’s understandable, as the OP didn’t elaborate on what he meant.

I’d like to hear more from the women about the pros and cons of asking for a date sooner rather than later, as this is something I’m still sorting out.

 

[Pink_Lemonade]

One thing I don’t get, though, is the “not right time”. I’ve stumbled into it more than once but can’t figure it out for anything in the world. I guess, to me, it sounds like something irrelevant, as in it’s the two people that matter, they are either good matches for each other or not, the timing can make things easy or difficult to process but it has little to do with the merits.

I find it very hard to believe that if, let’s say, person A chose the wrong timing to approach person B, they would be happy together forever but just because the timing was wrong, they will not be together, ever (with the implication that the fact things transpired at the wrong time has killed the prospect for the future, not just failed to work in the present).

Would you care to shed some light on this? I’m not asking for relationship advice, in fact, I’ m simply interested in a sort of academic way because I’ve spent so much time wondering about such subjects in the past. Now I don’t care so much on a personal level but the interest and curiosity remains. It’s kinda hard to let go of the intellectual interest in something that mattered to you for a long time before (as evidenced by the wall of text I’ve just produced).

In my case, “not the right time” meant I really think this guy is great, but I need to discern whether I am in fact called to marriage or not, so it’s not fair to pursue a relationship. It could also be the case that someone is pursuing an advanced degree and has neither the resources nor the time available to commit to someone. Perhaps someone is dealing with some emotional, health, or family issues. There are so many reasons that would make a person incapable of devoting the time and attention necessary to keep a relationship and discern whether that person is who they want to marry.

I completely understand what you’re saying, but when someone isn’t at the point where they can maintain a healthy relationship, for whatever reason, how long is the other person supposed to wait around for him or her to be ready? It doesn’t mean that two people couldn’t be happy together- the truth is all of us are compatible with and could be happy with a number of different people. But it takes two people to be ready and capable of a commitment, and if one or both of them isn’t in that position, for whatever reason, life has to go on. I don’t believe that if two people are “right for each other”, they just make it work regardless. If a person doesn’t have him or herself together before a relationship, being in one will make everything worse. So, the timing for two people who would go well together could be off in that their personal circumstances make it unwise to pursue a relationship at a particular time.

That being said, if a person says “oh, our timing is just off” and then goes and pursues a relationship with someone else, it’s pretty clear that timing wasn’t really the issue!

 

[chevalier]

Just for the informative nature of what certain logical fallacies are:

Actually, the logical fallacy you were looking for is “judgemental language”, not appeal to emotion.

And where you’re wrong is that for BOTH judgemental language or appeal to emotion, the judgement or the appeal is one of the premises, because false premises are what lead to false conclusions. Where you err is that the part you construe as judgemental language is actually my CONCLUSION. In other words, my argument looks like this:

P1) Guys who are nice but not good behave as if they can buy female affection
P2) People who attempt to buy female affection are engaging in a form of prostitution
C) Guys who are nice but not good are engaging in a form of prostitution.

Where you introduced a logical fallacy, aside from attacking a conclusion rather than the premise, is by engaging in a bit o’ red herring (a type of ad hominem)

To wit, the argument:
P1) this person uses evocative language
P2) All people using evocative language are wrong
C) therefore his argument is false

But let’s say that I argued that Hitler should be stopped because he’s a dirty, lying, violent, murderous scumbag…

The simple fact that I used evocative language, even as one of my premises here (which I did NOT do in the first place), does not change the fact that Hitler should be stopped.

In other words, your “logical syllogism” relies on a false premise: that ALL conclusions involving evocative language or based on premises which involve evocative language must necessarily be false.

Except I never said that whatever you were saying was false, let alone necessarily. You supplied that assertion out of thin air together with the generalising quantification of “all”. Therefore your own logic is mighty faulty here. As for appeal to emotion, just go to wiki.

Well…given my own personal experience…there could be several reasons.

I dated a number of men before I met my husband. Just dates here and there…nothing more, and I friend-zoned a vast number of them.

A number of times it was girlfriends or my sister or her husband or other friend’s husbands that would set me up with their friends and, while it wasn’t a blind date, I wouldn’t know the guy very well before I met him.
We’d go out on a date or two and I’d realize that I didn’t want to start relationships with them. They were nice and fun but not my “type” and to avoid complications…I’d politely let them know I wasn’t interested in a relationship.

Specifically…I dated a guy from my BIL’s band. He had a huge crush on me and wanted to take me out.
After one date…I found out he was 24 and a recovering drug addict/alcoholic. Granted he had been sober for 2 years…but it was quite a lot of baggage I wasn’t ready or willing to handle. But he was funny and made me laugh and friendly…plus he was a good friend of my BIL and I didn’t want to rock the boat. So we stayed friends…though he was disappointed.

Thank you. Well, incidentally, I think your first example illustrates one thing which is wrong with dating. People just don’t know each other while even the word “date” has the implications of a matchmaking, romantic, mating, whatever-related meeting. Which is awkward.

 

[chevalier]

The usual definition of “friend-zone” is a situation where the woman feels like there is chemistry, but she feels the chemistry disappear due to spending time with the man in a friendly, non-romantic context . After relating to the man in a friendly (non-romantic) way, he starts feeling “like a brother”, and she’s no longer able to view him romantically.

Simply turning down a guy because there was never any chemistry isn’t “friend-zoning”; it’s just a normal rejection. The term “friend-zone” was invented to describe this very specific situation, which men often discuss.

The implication of “friend-zoning” is that, if the guy had only made a move sooner, a successful relationship would have resulted. The guy sets a romantic (rather than a friendly) tone from the very beginning, so the woman never has a chance to view him “like a brother”. This is why guys talk about getting “friend-zoning” enough to invent a term for it – we agonize over the proper length of time to know a woman (in a group context) before asking her on a date. Getting “friend-zoned” is the result of waiting too long, while the girl might “freak out” if you ask her too soon.

(PS: I’m not convinced that the phenomenon of “friend-zoning” is common. I think guys erroneously settle on “friend-zoning” as a way to retrospectively explain their past romantic failures.)

You have a point there and certainly your explanation sounds closer to what the OP was asking about, although I’d still insist that friend-zoning basically means the classification of a man as a friend rather than boyfriend material for this or that reason. However, yes, it can’t really stretch to cover all rejections, that would be absurd.

 

[chevalier]

In my case, “not the right time” meant I really think this guy is great, but I need to discern whether I am in fact called to marriage or not, so it’s not fair to pursue a relationship. It could also be the case that someone is pursuing an advanced degree and has neither the resources nor the time available to commit to someone. Perhaps someone is dealing with some emotional, health, or family issues. There are so many reasons that would make a person incapable of devoting the time and attention necessary to keep a relationship and discern whether that person is who they want to marry.

Thank you. That’s perfectly clear and understandable. I seem to have associated the keyword “timing” with some kind of magic of the moment, wrong phase of the moon, something even random, this is why I stressed the point about the procedure killing the substance. Probably was being jaded. To some extent perhaps because timing is a convenient excuse when letting someone down, so it’s probably abused (instead of telling somebody we don’t think we’re compatible).

I completely understand what you’re saying, but when someone isn’t at the point where they can maintain a healthy relationship, for whatever reason, how long is the other person supposed to wait around for him or her to be ready?

Yes, I understand that. And when we leave that period in our life that required us to focus on studying or work, we generally prefer to have a clean slate then, not some old obligations. Again, perhaps I’ve seen a bit too many changes of mind there to defeat skepticism. This may sound a little juvenile but I tend to associate this type of bad timing with the idea that a different guy, likely even rather soon, will actually not hear the part about wrong timing. Perhaps because he wouldn’t listen. Maybe I focus too much on past experience.

I don’t believe that if two people are “right for each other”, they just make it work regardless. If a person doesn’t have him or herself together before a relationship, being in one will make everything worse. So, the timing for two people who would go well together could be off in that their personal circumstances make it unwise to pursue a relationship at a particular time.

I see. Well, while agreeing with everything you’ve said, I still must say I do think if people are “right for each other”, then they’ll just get themselves together and make it (despite the difficulties, because how they feel about other person is their love, perhaps future wife or husband, which is a priority one does make room for). At least if they try. But if they don’t want to try or something else like that happens, it probably means they simply aren’t all that good for each other. Perhaps somewhat good but not very good. Or just an illusion. Under this logic, if you hear about timing, then the person saying that was not right for you, so you should basically move on. Except on the emotional side that’d be quite a cold thing to do.

That being said, if a person says “oh, our timing is just off” and then goes and pursues a relationship with someone else, it’s pretty clear that timing wasn’t really the issue!

Yeah.