A question for those who were raised Catholic

[GreggAlvarez]

But as the catechism states, anyone who is not a member of the capital-C Church cannot be saved, so the fact that there are ‘many truths’ in those other religions doesn’t count for much, does it?

Funny, but I started to think about the “bigger picture” a lot more after getting a liberal (in the classical sense of the word) education.

1. Where in the Catechism does it state that? So that way I can clear up your misinterpretation. The Church has excommunicated people who have said that people cannot be saved outside the Church. It may not count for much to you but many who have come to the Church from these different religions find it easier to settle because the Truth is much clearer. You should be careful of your modernist semantics. It is clear that you are under the assumption that “many truths” in all religions are inherently wrong anyway.
2. What is the “bigger picture”? Again, you are bias. Not in that you think you are right. But that assuming everyone else is wrong and has to be wrong because there is no objective truth. The “bigger picture” here is clearly not quality but quantity. Yes you have more numbers of things in mind but definitely not considered.

I noticed also that you find there is ambiguity, vagueness and contradiction in the Bible. If you look for it, you will find it. That does not mean it that it is because you cannot see past the words. I have found many of them. I still find them. I eventually figure it out though because there are none of these, only seemingly at a shallow level; which is the first thing we see.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Of course. I question everything I’ve been told by society. I’m naturally skeptical that way.

However, I was not raised in a secular society. I was raised Baptist in England in the '60’s. Everyone I knew believed in God. I went to church every Sunday. My school, although not a religious institution, forced us to pray at assembly and our teachers often taught Christianity. It was only after moving to Canada as a twelve-year-old that I started to have doubts, and passed through the stages from believer to doubter, to skeptic, to agnostic and eventually, in my 20’s, to atheism. And the more I study religion, the more convinced I am of my current beliefs (and yes, I have read the Bible – many times).

Uh . . . a claim of objectivity is exactly what I would expect from someone who actually is brainwashed.

 

[LittleSoldier]

1. Where in the Catechism does it state that? So that way I can clear up your misinterpretation. The Church has excommunicated people who have said that people cannot be saved outside the Church. It may not count for much to you but many who have come to the Church from these different religions find it easier to settle because the Truth is much clearer. You should be careful of your modernist semantics. It is clear that you are under the assumption that “many truths” in all religions are inherently wrong anyway.
2. What is the “bigger picture”? Again, you are bias. Not in that you think you are right. But that assuming everyone else is wrong and has to be wrong because there is no objective truth. The “bigger picture” here is clearly not quality but quantity. Yes you have more numbers of things in mind but definitely not considered.

I noticed also that you find there is ambiguity, vagueness and contradiction in the Bible. If you look for it, you will find it. That does not mean it that it is because you cannot see past the words. I have found many of them. I still find them. I eventually figure it out though because there are none of these, only seemingly at a shallow level; which is the first thing we see.

And Feeneyism rears its ugly head again. It was condemned as a heresy. Nobody has to be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. (Maybe Joan of Bark was brainwashed into believing that the Church requires membership in order for a person to be saved.)

Thank you for your excellent post!!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say everyone was brainwashed. I merely asked if you ever thought you might be … and if you see any difference between your situation and that of a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, JW, etc.

I think your phrasing of “brainwashed” puts people off…it sounds harsh…so what do you expect?

Nope…because I know other people of other religions end up in different religions as well. Maybe you should have phrased your question a tad bit nicer.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Funny how these things never seem to occur in front of non-Christians.

Obviously I don’t believe in exorcisms (and neither do protestants, who constitute a large portion of Christianity).

Nor do I believe in faith healing, which has been debunked by James Randi, among others. And demons? Oh, please …

Protestants don’t believe in exorcisms? Source, please.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Read my previous post to see my response to this point.

While you’re at it, answer one of the questions from my OP. Do you believe a child raised in Islam, orthodox Judaism, or any other religious belief system, has voluntarily accepted his or her beliefs? Do you not see an element of coercion at work?

Coercion would only be involoved if you somehow forbid your adult children from converting. I believe in parental rights. I have every right to raise my children as carnivorous Catholics. My next door neighbor has every right to raise her kids as vegan wiccans. I have no problem with Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, JW, Protestant whatever parents raising their kids in that faith. That’s a parent’s right, it’s what a good parent does. However, I also believe in the right of religious freedom. Ergo, when they reach adulthood, everyone should have the right to change their religion if they so desire. You’re implying that those of us in the west are engaged in some sort of religious coercion where our kids are concerned. That’s not true. What is true, is in a lot of Muslim nations conversion is illegal and punishable by death. That’s brainswashing and coercion, not what Catholic parents in the West do when they baptize their children and take them to Mass on Sunday. Not even close!

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Coercion would only be involoved if you somehow forbid your adult children from converting. I believe in parental rights. I have every right to raise my children as carnivorous Catholics. My next door neighbor has every right to raise her kids as vegan wiccans. I have no problem with Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, JW, Protestant whatever parents raising their kids in that faith. That’s a parent’s right, it’s what a good parent does. However, I also believe in the right of religious freedom. Ergo, when they reach adulthood, everyone should have the right to change their religion if they so desire. You’re implying that those of us in the west are engaged in some sort of religious coercion where our kids are concerned. That’s not true. What is true, is in a lot of Muslim nations conversion is illegal and punishable by death. That’s brainswashing and coercion, not what Catholic parents in the West do when they baptize their children and take them to Mass on Sunday. Not even close!

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[crazzeto]

I’m pretty sure I haven’t been, particularly since for a long time there I started accepting everything the world has to offer. Moral relativism, a false belief that Religion was the greatest cause of suffering in the world et. al.

I considered leaving the Church, and indeed for a long time I was so luke warm I wasn’t even making it to church every Christmas and Easter. Then I also considered protestantism, and the idea that if there was a God, perhaps he was bigger than any particular religion.

It wasn’t until I decided to sit and logically think out faith and what exactly I was doing with it that I realized how foolish I was… When I came to this realization, I came back with avengance. So I guess my question to non-believers, do you think the below could be true?

Psa 14:1 Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God. They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Joan of Bark,
Did you really us James Randi as a source of “debunking”? First of all, his lame “magic” stunts are even worse than that Criss Angel (or whatever that crazy guy’s name is). He only attracts because of his popularity. Have you actually thoroughly read any of his stuff? Or did you just believe whatever he says to be true because he is a skeptic? Because even skeptics have seen the errors within his “debunking”. The worse part about most skeptic literature (and I hold Richard Dawkins to be the king of this; he should stick to writing science books; his compilation of books was really well thought out) is that they do not “disprove” by any means of facts; all they do is use derogatory adjectives, imagery and such. (I am just talking about those skeptic books against Christianity and Theism by the way) Even atheists dislike that. Sam Harris is the man to go to because he actually tries to use logic, albeit he still insults but only subtly. I respect a person who uses logic and reasoning like Sam Harris. Talk to Michael Ruse (another atheist scientist) about Richard Dawkins. Another problem is that skeptics will believe it without doing their own investigations. For some reason, when a skeptic writes, it is all truth and fact; but when a Christian (or anyone defending theism) writes, it happens to be all false and deluded. You got to do better than James Randi. (We also have to be careful of our own literature; just for your information.) Although I do commend you for doing your own research in the Catechism and Bible and such. Good for you (not being sarcastic). I do not mean to insult you. If I did, I apologize. Take care.
Gregg

 

[bingbang]

So I guess my question to non-believers, do you think the below could be true?

No, I don’t think that is true at all. So if you don’t believe in God, you can’t do good? That is complete nonsense.

 

[crazzeto]

No, I don’t think that is true at all. So if you don’t believe in God, you can’t do good? That is complete nonsense.

Well, if you don’t beleive in God, when there is one… and you are say, here on these forums evangalizing the faithful stop rightly worshiping God, or in otherwords “eating up my childeren as bread”, then I would suggest that any good works done pales in comparison.

But the main point I was driving at (though I quoted the whole verse for completeness) was

“the fool hath said in his heart: there is no God”

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Little Soldier: You are welcome. I have said that about 50 times in the past year, 20 of them to the same person. If it takes a million times, I will do it; but I may lose a bit of sanity. I like your name by the way. Reminds me of Ephesians 6: 13-17. Take care buddy.

 

[Philthy]

Of course. I question everything I’ve been told by society. I’m naturally skeptical that way.

However, I was not raised in a secular society. I was raised Baptist in England in the '60’s. Everyone I knew believed in God. I went to church every Sunday. My school, although not a religious institution, forced us to pray at assembly and our teachers often taught Christianity. It was only after moving to Canada as a twelve-year-old that I started to have doubts, and passed through the stages from believer to doubter, to skeptic, to agnostic and eventually, in my 20’s, to atheism. And the more I study religion, the more convinced I am of my current beliefs (and yes, I have read the Bible – many times).

And so, recognizing this, one can conclude that “brainwashing” does not prevent anyone from believing something different when they mature into adulthood. What, therefore, was the point in starting the thread?
For the record, BTW, if I had had a similar upbringing I’d be bitter towards religion as well…

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think Joan of Bark has been brainwashed by James Randi.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

I always find it funny that Christians are so obsessed with adultery, while ignoring another of the Ten Commandments – the one about not working on the sabbath (Seventh Day Adventists excepting). But that’s off-topic.
My friend, you probably had not been to church for a long time. Now it is true that Christians do emphasize on the destructive power of adultery, yes, because it’s a very serious sin that could render us what is our true happiness, many have claimed that sex out of wedlock had destroyed their sex life. Adultery and Infidelity also is the cause of most of our divorce, of separation between wife and husband, children and parents. Yet as disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, we believe that all sins are equally destructive in different ways, and all sins are rags in God’s eyes, therefore how could we ignore any other commandments? Have we ignored the commandment of worship God and God only? Have we ignored the commandment of respect our parents and love one another like Jesus told us to? The Bible said in Colossians 2:16-19 " 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: “Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.” To say we ignore Sabath is without ground because we still worship on every Sunday don’t we? So what makes a difference between worship on Sunday or Saturday? Aren’t they both just days in a week?

No, because the majority of people in America are Christians, while a growing minority are theists of other stripes. If humanism and secularism are really have such an impact under a Christian majority, maybe it speaks to the power of their arguments.
About how many ppl in America that actually can be considered Christians? That actually believe that Jesus is the only way and actually know the Bible? Most people in America consider their “identity” as Christians, but are they practicing Christians? Again, aren’t we all being brainwashed to accept that there’s no definite truth and that all and that all religions are essentially true? Because most people in America “identify” themselves Christians can’t make them have Christian thoughts or can actually regard them as knowing anything about Christianity except the story of Christmas and Easter. Too often we have people declare themselves as Christians who live a very unChristian life style and know nothing about real Christianity at all

Not me. But a child becomes interested in the religion of it’s parents.
Parental influence to me is hardly anything as brainwashing as all. Let say if my dad is a violinist and my mother is a pianist, let say they both work in an orchestra. Let say that they often listen to classical music, take me to their concerts, and tell me the benefits and superiority of classical music, then are we saying that they’re “brainwashing” me? The child of course will most of the time interest more in what parents like, “like father, like son”, if my parents are musicians, I will interest more in music, if my parents are scientists, I will be more interested in science. But above all, parental influence can’t be counted as brainwashing because ultimately, it’s still my choice to whether follow my parents’ footstep or establish my own destiny.

Yes, the child can choose, as we both did. But childhood indoctrination is often difficult to overcome. Not impossible, just difficult.
That’s why we have an education, education is what teaches us to make our own footstep. It teaches us about objective truth, it gives us different choices, different ways to follow(most of the time, not always), so therefore it’s not that hard for an adult to overcome childhood indoctrination, given that most people in their teenage phase are more likely to rebel against their parents’ wish/ And given also that America has one of the best education in the world,I think we can hardly be that “indoctrinated”

 

[GreggAlvarez]

UnityofTrinity: I liked your clasical music analogy. I play trumpet and piano (more trumpet though)! I play in a Cuban group in Kentucky and I want to play in an orchestra professionally. I am actually listening right now. It is awesome! Anyway, enough of my burbling.

 

[antroji]

Burble away, GregAlvarez. In the sense that none of the posts are actually dealing with the OP’s actual question, only reactions about its language, your burble is about as pertinent as much else on here as far as I see. I am glad you enjoy and play Music. It is the Queen of the arts. And yet I wonder what you or anyone else on here thinks of the actual question at hand?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Whoah dude… No need for sarcasm. I apologize for giving my thoughts. Really… I am actually waiting for this dude’s response. I am trying to get at the root of his or her major assumption (the seeming corollary of “indoctrination” to “brainwashing”) and minor assumption (that there probably is not absolute truth) in his or her Original Post. That would help tremendously so I/we could explain our position better. The language/syntax is not so much as important as the semantics. In syntax, fetus and baby could mean the same thing, inside the womb that is. Semantically, major difference. Semantics is the part of language I am going after. Perhaps if we were to understand these things, we can give him or her a more satisfying answer. Questions that are given like the one in the OP, leave the answerer only two choices, both of which are inherently wrong. That is the thing I am trying to clear up. If someone asks you “If God is all-powerful, can He make a stone so heavy which He cannot lift?” and you answer yes, you are inherently wrong. If “no”, you are also inherently wrong. If one can answer yes or no to a question and not be right with either, something is inherently (I have no synonym for inherent; sorry for the redundancy) wrong with the question because it assumes something, is not logical or is not reasonable. Anyway, maybe he or she will see this post.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Yes, exactly like society conditions you to be.

Being skeptical of society is itself something that society conditions us to be. It all goes back to the Enlightenment.

I can only speak for myself, but I was definitely not conditioned to be skeptical about my society. In England we were all raised to to believe that our elders – in the church, in parliament, and in our families – knew what was best. It was mainly through reading as a teenager that I began to question things.

It is nearly impossible to root out all of the presuppositions and baggage that our culture hands down to us. We breathe it in like the invisible air and swim in it like the fish of the sea. Sometimes, when we think we are chucking the baggage, we’re really only trading it for a different set.

Fair enough.

Ah, the Convert Syndrome. There is a natural tendency to think that if I used to believe in something, but no longer believe it, I must be more “objective” and more of a “critical thinker” than those who never made such a transition.

Absolutely. I believe that someone who switches his or her beliefs as a free adult is more objective, because that person has seen more than one side of the argument.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

I haven’t had time to read all the posts - sorry.

Are you saying that if you have doubts about a system that means you may have been brainwashed by that system and are managing to break out of the effects of the brainwashing? Are you saying that a brainwashed person will be able to find out if he/she is brainwashed via contemplation and study? I just want to be clear about your beliefs.

The truth is that if you have been brainwashed, whether by religious or secular systems, you won’t know. You could be brainwashed about religion, political systems, the history that is taught in our schools, science, and so on. So your question is really very silly.

My point is, if someone is raised – as an impressionable child – to consistently believe that one religious, philosophical, or political viewpoint is correct – and the others are incorrect – that person may simply become indoctrinated into said belief without the opportunity to see other beliefs in an impartial light.

Of course no-one can ever be completely objective while adopting a belief system, but if you read my OP again you should be able to see what I’m getting at. Do you think a Muslim child raised in Saudi Arabia gets a chance to form his or her own opinion? And comparing a religious system, that is taught to you every day at home, and once a week at church, to a history class that you might get for one hour a week, is a silly comparison. Our parents have far more influence over us than any teacher.