A question for X LDS

[CJ_Nick]

Hello All

Backround ( short version ):

I have been on an LDS forum for the purposes of gaining some perspective on LDS beliefs directly from LDS folk.

I have been able to learn alot from them about their beliefs but remain VERY confused concerning one thing.

The one thing is in regard to " ask Heavenly Father if it is true and you will get your witness from the Holy Spirit "

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE I am asking that this does not turn into a " bashing " thing. I am aware of several things that sorround this ( Nephi, Perhaps not worthy, I know because I know, etc, etc )

I was graciously welcomed on this LDS forum and, for the most part, treated with respect as a Catholic visitor.

My question to former LDS folk is this: Did you really have a " absolute witness/testimony " " burning in the bosom " ??
Did your whole family have this ??
How does one " have absolute witness " from claimed Holy Spirit and then later " have absolute contrary witness "??

Hope I am making sense ( I am trying to be respectful but still ask my question in the proper context )

At any rate, thanks in advance for the contributions.

Peace,
CJ

 

[CJ_Nick]

Hi CJ,

Sorry, I have little to offer you because I am you.

Just thought I would give you a post from you to see if that might make you feel more important. LOL!!!

Peace,
CJ

 

[Jay53]

Hi CJ,

Sorry, I have little to offer you because I am you.

Just thought I would give you a post from you to see if that might make you feel more important. LOL!!!

Peace,
CJ

Hi CJ,

I am not an ex-LDS so I have less than little to offer you.

Just wanted you to know your post is being read. I just can’t help you. Sorry!

Hopefully someone else will chime in.

 

[tundramom]

Hi there CJ,

X-LDS here.

I never had a “burning in the bosom”. And not for lack of trying either. I was trying sooooooo hard to accept it all. I grew up LDS and didn’t leave until I was 33. I wanted it all to be true. Everyone I knew was LDS. All my family and extended family.

After just accepting it on other’s “testimonies” for so many years, I could no longer do it. I had to know for myself. I couldn’t just swallow it all hook, line, and sinker.

in Christ
Steph

 

[RebeccaJ]

also x-lds

ditto for what tundramom said, raised lds, out by the time I was 23 yrs old

except i’ll say, i tested everything to see if what my teachers said would really happen…it didnt’

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi CJ,
It took me a while to figure this out after I left the LDS church. When I was contacted by the missionaries, I was a non-believer. I knew very little about Jesus or the bible. When the missionaries had me read passages about Jesus from the Book of Mormon (mostly lifted from the bible) - the first time I ever really read anything about Jesus, I did get a “burning in the bosom”. The rest of the BOM left me quite cold, but the parts about Jesus really did stir within me a desire to know Him and serve Him.

The missionaries told me that these feelings were the Holy Ghost confirming to me that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that the BOM was “true”. Having no experience with thought-control cults at that time, I allowed the missionaries to re-assign my feelings, about Jesus, to Joseph Smith and the Mormon church, and I joined them (and was miserable the whole time).

That’s what they do - they tell you what your feelings mean, and of course they always mean you should join the Mormons and pay them 10% of your gross income. If your feelings towards the BOM or the missionaries’ message is negative, they tell you it means that you are sinful or insincere, so you need to repent and join the Mormons and pay them 10% of your gross income.

It took 11 years for me to figure out why I always got a witness of Jesus but never got a witness of the Mormons, and I left the Mormon church in 1986. Now I am happily Catholic and I have a witness of Jesus and His Church - the Catholic Church.

Hope this helps,
Paul

 

[BartBurk]

I never got that feeling from reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it. I would get the “warm bosom” experience when I was emotionally moved in sacrament meeting. I also got that feeling watching Fiddler on the Roof, at a service of the local megachurch, the first time I sang “Amazing Grace” at mass … you get the picture. Trusting our feelings instead of our head can get us in trouble. It could be the “warmed heart” that John Wesley felt and that the disciples felt on the road traveling to Emmaus is simply the testimony that Jesus is the Christ. I don’t think it is a feeling that is limited to the LDS Church and mistrust it as a means of deciding which church is true. If I were using it to decide which church is true I would have joined a dozen churches by now.

Hello All

Backround ( short version ):

I have been on an LDS forum for the purposes of gaining some perspective on LDS beliefs directly from LDS folk.

I have been able to learn alot from them about their beliefs but remain VERY confused concerning one thing.

The one thing is in regard to " ask Heavenly Father if it is true and you will get your witness from the Holy Spirit "

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE I am asking that this does not turn into a " bashing " thing. I am aware of several things that sorround this ( Nephi, Perhaps not worthy, I know because I know, etc, etc )

I was graciously welcomed on this LDS forum and, for the most part, treated with respect as a Catholic visitor.

My question to former LDS folk is this: Did you really have a " absolute witness/testimony " " burning in the bosom " ??
Did your whole family have this ??
How does one " have absolute witness " from claimed Holy Spirit and then later " have absolute contrary witness "??

Hope I am making sense ( I am trying to be respectful but still ask my question in the proper context )

At any rate, thanks in advance for the contributions.

Peace,
CJ

 

[CJ_Nick]

Thank you all for the perspectives

I must say, from my experience as a visitor there, It was obviously very difficult ( and painful ) for LDS to leave or " NOT have a testimony " due to the, IMHO, enormous investment they have with family, friends, spouses, etc.

Another question, if I may, is in regard to the doctrine of the LDS community.

I had spent about 8 months on this forum getting to know many LDS members ( to be very honest, I enjoyed my time there. It was alot warm banter, sharing of thought, with a little contention along the way).

It was very interesting to me that many LDS members did not know or atleast did not think that many of the teachings were " doctrine ". I want to share a few with you and see if you can offer me some thoughts as to your experiences while LDS members.

1. King Follet sermon: IMHO, It was very clear that Joseph Smith taught ( from the pulpit as a prophet ) that our God was once a mere man of a different planet who became our God of this one. He further taught that " Mormons" could also be exalted to Gods of their own. Many LDS members I got to know, did not believe or never heard of such a thing. Some told me that although JS siad this, it was not " doctrine “. ( I am very confused by this??)
   I also asked " If Our God was once a mere man like us, who is God’s God ?” ( Was told we only need to worry about our God as he is in charge of our destiny) Confused
2. My question to LDS ( Several times ) was, Is there anywhere in the BOM that supports or talks about some of the teachings of the Mormon Church ( Exaltation, Jesus being our spirit brother, " eternal sealings in marriage, polygamy and or polyandry, to name a few) I never really got a direct answer ( I did get some who offered me " line by line " " precept by precept " or " we simply do not know yet as it has not yet been prophetized". ( Confused )
3. How can a LDS Prophet contradict or change what an earlier LDS prophet taught or claimed?? ( Polygamy, Blacks in the priesthood, etc ) I am very confused by the answers I recieved. I was told that God changes things in time to represent " current times " ( Confused )

At any rate, I will stop for now.

Thanks for taking the time to reply

Peace,
CJ

 

[RebeccaJ]

1. King Follet sermon: IMHO, It was very clear that Joseph Smith taught ( from the pulpit as a prophet ) that our God was once a mere man of a different planet who became our God of this one. He further taught that " Mormons" could also be exalted to Gods of their own. Many LDS members I got to know, did not believe or never heard of such a thing. Some told me that although JS siad this, it was not " doctrine “. ( I am very confused by this??)
   I also asked " If Our God was once a mere man like us, who is God’s God ?” ( Was told we only need to worry about our God as he is in charge of our destiny) Confused

The Mormon church still teaches this.

The Mormon church changes, in order to survive and gain converts. They target Christians, and Christians find this sort of stuff to be absurd. It is to their advantage to drop it.

1. My question to LDS ( Several times ) was, Is there anywhere in the BOM that supports or talks about some of the teachings of the Mormon Church ( Exaltation, Jesus being our spirit brother, " eternal sealings in marriage, polygamy and or polyandry, to name a few) I never really got a direct answer ( I did get some who offered me " line by line " " precept by precept " or " we simply do not know yet as it has not yet been prophetized". ( Confused )

The BoM is not the only innovative LDS scripture. You have to go their doctrine and covenants and pearl of great price to find these other things.

1. How can a LDS Prophet contradict or change what an earlier LDS prophet taught or claimed?? ( Polygamy, Blacks in the priesthood, etc ) I am very confused by the answers I recieved. I was told that God changes things in time to represent " current times " ( Confused )

Doctrines change in mormonism. Even the definition of what is doctrine changes in mormonism. Mormons believe God changes, this is apparent in the root of their theology about God. They believe he is a man who changed into a god, and keeps on changing. It’s quite alright with them as they see themselves as gods-in-the-making and so, you have to be able to change in order to be changed into a god.

 

[PaulDupre]

It was very interesting to me that many LDS members did not know or atleast did not think that many of the teachings were " doctrine ".

Whenever they are confronted with an offensive or embarrasing doctrine, they claim it is not doctrine. However, it is obvious that if their prophets and apostles have always taught something and it is still in their Sunday School and Priesthood manuals, then it is doctrine. There are many “cafeteria Mormons” and the LDS leadership likes it that way.

I want to share a few with you and see if you can offer me some thoughts as to your experiences while LDS members.

1. King Follet sermon: IMHO, It was very clear that Joseph Smith taught ( from the pulpit as a prophet ) that our God was once a mere man of a different planet who became our God of this one. He further taught that " Mormons" could also be exalted to Gods of their own. Many LDS members I got to know, did not believe or never heard of such a thing. Some told me that although JS siad this, it was not " doctrine “. ( I am very confused by this??)
   I also asked " If Our God was once a mere man like us, who is God’s God ?” ( Was told we only need to worry about our God as he is in charge of our destiny) Confused

It is still taught, among other places, here. See chapter 47.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel–you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.

• Gospel Principles, Chapter 47 - Exaltation

Paul

 

[tundramom]

Here’s a quote from the page that Paul linked to.
It is interesting to note that when interviewed on Larry King, Gordon Hinckley didn’t know that his church still taught this.

When we lived with our Heavenly Father, he explained a plan for our progression. We could become like him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father’s commandments even though we were no longer in his presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience. We would then be assigned to the place for which we had prepared.

Jesus taught, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). From the scriptures we learn that there are three kingdoms of glory in heaven. The Apostle Paul mentioned that he knew a man who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul named two of the kingdoms in heaven: the celestial and the terrestrial (see 1 Corinthians 15:40-42). The celestial is the highest, and the terrestrial is second. Through latter-day revelation we learn that the third kingdom is the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:81). We also learn that there are three heavens or degrees within the celestial kingdom (see D&C 131:1).

and this

What Is Exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give his children (see D&C 14:7).

in Christ
Steph

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

to answer the OP, as a former LDS member of 7 years and while loved many passages of the Book of Mormon (especially when read aloud) I never had the warm fuzzies over the Book of Mormon. I never got a technical testimony. I don’t think I ever ‘knew’ the church was true, just ‘believed’ it was. I love the doctrine, sorry but I do. I loved my callings, the friends, the fellowship, the meetings and study. I would be there in a heartbeat - if it were true. What got me out of the LDS was teaching it to my kids. I realized when I attempted to teach to my sons that Heavenly Father was a physical man in heaven and that Jesus Christ is our older brother and that we could be together as a family forever if we were worthy enough to enter the temple, I realized I didn’t really believe it. I could parrot the words and intellectually talk about the doctrine, but I did not believe them to be true. Hard to explain.
.
Now I’m at home in the Catholic Church. I have gotten so many insights praying the rosary and feel such joy being with Jesus in Mass. Do I like it all - no, do I agree with it all, no - but that doesn’t make Catholicism any less true.

 

[BartBurk]

to answer the OP, as a former LDS member of 7 years and while loved many passages of the Book of Mormon (especially when read aloud) I never had the warm fuzzies over the Book of Mormon. I never got a technical testimony. I don’t think I ever ‘knew’ the church was true, just ‘believed’ it was. I love the doctrine, sorry but I do. I loved my callings, the friends, the fellowship, the meetings and study. I would be there in a heartbeat - if it were true. What got me out of the LDS was teaching it to my kids. I realized when I attempted to teach to my sons that Heavenly Father was a physical man in heaven and that Jesus Christ is our older brother and that we could be together as a family forever if we were worthy enough to enter the temple, I realized I didn’t really believe it. I could parrot the words and intellectually talk about the doctrine, but I did not believe them to be true. Hard to explain.

.
Now I’m at home in the Catholic Church. I have gotten so many insights praying the rosary and feel such joy being with Jesus in Mass. Do I like it all - no, do I agree with it all, no - but that doesn’t make Catholicism any less true.

That’s exactly how I feel. If I really could believe in the Book of Mormon I’d be Mormon because I enjoyed being a member of the LDS Church from a purely social aspect more than I do the Catholic Church. When I was a Mormon, I never had to worry about getting help moving, etc. I can’t say I get the same support from my Catholic parish, and I really don’t have the opportunities to serve others like I did in the LDS Church either. The Mormons are a lot like the Amish in that regard.

 

[Casen]

I grew up in the church but didn’t really gain a testimony until I was 16 years old. I was sitting in a seminary class listening to my teacher and suddenly had a profound spiritual experience and at that moment just knew it was all true. That was it.

Once I had that experience I knew it was true and had the experience reconfirmed for me many times afterward. I served a mission at 19, graduated from BYU at 24, married in the temple at 25 and never looked back after that one experience. I still remember it clearly 21 years later.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I grew up in the church but didn’t really gain a testimony until I was 16 years old. I was sitting in a seminary class listening to my teacher and suddenly had a profound spiritual experience and at that moment just knew it was all true. That was it.

Once I had that experience I knew it was true and had the experience reconfirmed for me many times afterward. I served a mission at 19, graduated from BYU at 24, married in the temple at 25 and never looked back after that one experience. I still remember it clearly 21 years later.

At 16 I sat in seminary thinking it was all BS, and stopped going until the seminary teacher ratted that out to my bishop who then had the “person who gets along with all the youth” bug be about why I wasn’t going to seminary. Of course they told my dad, and that was it, I went to seminary and graduated. After which, I stopped going to all mormon mtgs but sacrament mtg, just to keep peace with the parents. At age 23 I escaped altogether, and never looked back.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That’s exactly how I feel. If I really could believe in the Book of Mormon I’d be Mormon because I enjoyed being a member of the LDS Church from a purely social aspect more than I do the Catholic Church. When I was a Mormon, I never had to worry about getting help moving, etc. I can’t say I get the same support from my Catholic parish, and I really don’t have the opportunities to serve others like I did in the LDS Church either. The Mormons are a lot like the Amish in that regard.

The social aspect was never that big for me, but, I left before family, kids, all that. The social aspect for me, was not any different than outside of church. Other than, people pressuring you to do things you don’t want to do. Now, as a former mormon, mormons have said some pretty ****** stuff to me. Some coming from my own family. So, no, I don’t miss anything of the mormon social network. I found it stifling, pretentious, and fake. I felt like I was in a cage.

 

[PaulDupre]

The social aspect for me, was not any different than outside of church. Other than, people pressuring you to do things you don’t want to do. Now, as a former mormon, mormons have said some pretty ****** stuff to me. Some coming from my own family. So, no, I don’t miss anything of the mormon social network. I found it stifling, pretentious, and fake. I felt like I was in a cage.

Same for me.

 

[MelanieAnne]

The social aspect was never that big for me, but, I left before family, kids, all that. The social aspect for me, was not any different than outside of church. Other than, people pressuring you to do things you don’t want to do. Now, as a former mormon, mormons have said some pretty ****** stuff to me. Some coming from my own family. So, no, I don’t miss anything of the mormon social network. I found it stifling, pretentious, and fake. I felt like I was in a cage.

I’ve heard similar things from some of the former Mormons I know. They thought they had this network of friends. Then they stopped going to church and they found out they actually didn’t have any such thing, that it was all, or almost all, FAKE. For some people such an experience can be rather upsetting. But then, upon reflection, the realization comes that these people never were actually “friends” at all. The people I’ve known who experienced this treatment finally had to get to the place where they realized that it’s silly to mourn the loss of something that you never really had.

As I understand it, Mormons have no formal policy that dictates the avoidance of inactive members, in practice that’s what often happens. While it’s not “shunning” in the general understanding of the word, it can feel a lot like that to the person who dares to stop going to their meetings. I’ve never seen anything like it in connection with any other faith.

 

[majick275]

I’ve heard similar things from some of the former Mormons I know. They thought they had this network of friends. Then they stopped going to church and they found out they actually didn’t have any such thing, that it was all, or almost all, FAKE. For some people such an experience can be rather upsetting. But then, upon reflection, the realization comes that these people never were actually “friends” at all. The people I’ve known who experienced this treatment finally had to get to the place where they realized that it’s silly to mourn the loss of something that you never really had.

As I understand it, Mormons have no formal policy that dictates the avoidance of inactive members, in practice that’s what often happens. While it’s not “shunning” in the general understanding of the word, it can feel a lot like that to the person who dares to stop going to their meetings. I’ve never seen anything like it in connection with any other faith.

ditto

 

[RebeccaJ]

The people I’ve known who experienced this treatment finally had to get to the place where they realized that it’s silly to mourn the loss of something that you never really had.

It isn’t silly, it’s devastating.