A question from a former non-Catholic, for non-Catholics...

[Light1111]

Light I am very happy for you and your decision but you really didn’t answer my question.

I’m sorry, Joe! Perhaps I misunderstood it. I thought you were saying that some view the Church as not being capable of infallibility, and perhaps this realization/belief is what brought about their departure from the Church. So, how could such people leave to join a new church, assuming that faith tradition would somehow be capable of the level of infallibility the person sought, but did not find, in the Catholic Church?

I answered from that framework, stating that I did not leave so that I could put my trust in some new dogma that instead could be infallible.

Maybe you can help me by explaining what you were really asking, and I’ll try again! Sorry Joe!

 

[Tuno]

Yes, and here you bring up the inevitable conflict in that belief and faith are not knowledge, and especially are not Knowledge in the esoteric or mystical sense.

 

[Tuno]

Amen. Thank you.

 

[Roy5]

I apologize for not taking the time to read and digest all the responses so far, but let me give one viewpoint.

Most Protestants I happen to know (and probably most Catholics, too) are not hung up on infallibillity. In other words, they hold the general view that nobody knows the ultimate truth about certain ultimate questions, that there is no one true church, that we should maintain some humility when it comes to understanding this mammoth, magnificent, miraculous and mysterious universe.

 Take mainline Protestants as a whole. I don't find Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, members of the United Church of Christ and other arguing that they belong to the one true church or that they have some sort of monopoly when it comes to valid doctrine. They have little differences - maybe in liturgy - but years ago they seem to have reached the point of agreeing to disagree. And even among those in the same denomination.

 An illustration. Attend an ecumenical Bible study and Protestants may take issue with one another on this or that verse, but nobody pulls out a catechism to 'prove their point'. No, they permit and even seem to encourage individual thinking. This had led to many denominations, true, but does give members considerable intellectual freedom.

 And, as said already, most Catholics I know well (there are exceptions) seem to feel similarly. Many of them take issue with the church on - for example - ordination of women, perhaps, or artificial birth control, and even on such sacred and central beliefs as transubstantiation or the sinlessness of Mary. Whether the hierarchy recognizes it or not, vast numbers of Catholics remain in the church for family or cultural reasons who do not agree on major matters. I believe a survey in the *US Catholic* magazine awhile ago found that 43% of Catholics confessed that they did not believe in transubstantiation.

 If people need or want a church that claims infallibility in theological and moral teachings, Catholicism may be it. Although there are millions of evangelical Protestants who claim that they alone embrace the truth, not by belonging to any particular denomination, but having been saved by their faith in Christ. 

 Lots more to say, but tempus fugit.

 

[Janet1983]

A question for non-Catholics: Let’s assume that the non-Catholic position is correct regarding the notion that the Catholic Church cannot teach infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ, and cannot infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - interpret sacred scripture. Where could one go to find a church that does claim to teach error free doctrine regarding the teachings of Jesus, and does claim to interpret sacred scripture in a non erroneous manner - in other words - infallibly?

I am not 100% whether this question is directed at me as well as I am an ex-Catholic Christian, but I do assume it and I will answer:

I do not believe that I actually need the Catholic Church to understand the teachings of the Lord out of Scripture.
I believe that the work of the law is written on our hearts, our conscience bearing witness. We were told that the Spirit of truth will guide us into all the truth.
We pray that the Messiah may dwell in our hearts through faith and that we are being rooted and firmly established in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and width, height and depth, and to know the Messiah’s love that surpasses knowledge, so we may be filled with all the fullness of God, for we are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For we are the sanctuary of the living God, as God said: I will dwell among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
Every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit which is our anointing. The anointing we received from Him remains in us, and we don’t need anyone to teach us. Instead, His anointing teaches us about all things, and is true and is not a lie; just as it has taught us, we remain in Him.

 

[freerf]

A question for non-Catholics: Let’s assume that the non-Catholic position is correct regarding the notion that the Catholic Church cannot teach infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ, and cannot infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - interpret sacred scripture. Where could one go to find a church that does claim to teach error free doctrine regarding the teachings of Jesus, and does claim to interpret sacred scripture in a non erroneous manner - in other words - infallibly?

I think we merely believe a human declairing himself infallable (or his personal teaching) is blasphemy.

We also teach that the moment you find a perfect church it’ll cease being perfect. ie. there are no perfect error-free churches on earth.

We believe the bible is infallible, but not humans. We believe the bible was written through humans by the holy spirit.

 

[freerf]

None of those chapters say anything about the Holy Spirit guiding the church. Matt 16 doesn’t even mention the Holy Spirit. In John the Holy Spirit is said to be sent to each of us, not to any church.

You agree that the Holy Spirit dwells in every Christian’s heart. The Spirit is in our heart to lead us to truth. A church can help us find the truth, but the Holy Spirit is the authority, not any church.

For the record, I’ve never attended any protestant church that claimed to be the sole vessel of infallible truth. If I ever found myself inside one, I’d make my way to the door as quickly and quietly as possible

That’s a first time i’ve heard a prot say the holy spirit doesn’t guide a church body. wrong. what about god leading the nation of israel out of egypt via a pillar of fire? what about the testamony of the early church? what about the cannon of scripture?

 

[Publisher]

A question for non-Catholics: Let’s assume that the non-Catholic position is correct regarding the notion that the Catholic Church cannot teach infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ, and cannot infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - interpret sacred scripture. Where could one go to find a church that does claim to teach error free doctrine regarding the teachings of Jesus, and does claim to interpret sacred scripture in a non erroneous manner - in other words - infallibly?

I do not believe there is such an entity in this world. While I do not believe we are left “adrift” because we have God’s astounding grace and mercy provided to us. We can trust in God’ love, grace and mercy to guide us in this world through faith IN that grace, love and mercy.

Those doctrines and dogmas that so many of our faith traditions espouse are of no benefit to us UNLESS they engender an “inward change” to share this astounding love and mercy we have received from the Hand of God toward others.

I am a Friend because through experiencing this love and grace without the necessity of rites and rituals, but directly from God Himself mediated through the Risen Present Christ in our lives, my life has meaning, joy and a sense of fulfillment.

I have faced some of the deepest tradgedies a man can face…I lost a child a matter of moments after birth…I didn’t even get to hold him…he was too small and frail. My wife and I were “lost”…but in our “lostness” God reached down in mercy and healed us to the point we could continue to approah Him for solace.

Almost a year after the death of our child…my wife was killed in an automobile accident…and I was devestated…I cursed God with every fiber of my being…I ripped my Bible up and cursed the elders of our Meeting when they tried to console me…I quit my job and drank heavily for months…and finally decided to end my life as a “testament” to this “God” who inflicts such horrible “rewards” on those who chose to serve Him…but in my darkness and despair…He came to me…He healed me in a most astounding way…that was almost 25 years ago…and while my life has not been perfect…I have found that in Him IS grace and mercy meeted out freely to any that come to Him in faith…even if our faith is damaged and lacking…He comes to us…"while the son was a distance away, the Father saw him and RAN TO HIM and hugged him and said “My son was dead…and is now alive…”

Experiencing his True Presence in Meeting each First Day is my joy. Serving “the least of these” in His Name is more important to me than “correct doctrine”. At the last judgement it is said the Judge will not be asking…“Did you believe in the Trinity…Did you believe that the bread and wine actually became the flesh and blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine…were you baptized with the correct forumula spoken over you…did you belong to the true church and in communion with Rome or Salt Lake or Canterbury or Constantinopal…” Instead we will be judged on how we cared for “the least of these” and could we see the face of Christ in the eyes of our neighbor.

I don’t need to know for sure I am right about any doctrinal issue…I have a True and Present Teacher who is here to teach His People Himself…I have experience the One Baptism which truly regenerates and heals through the indwelling Presence of the Light and the ministry of His Holy Spirit…

 

[PLeeD]

That’s a first time i’ve heard a prot say the holy spirit doesn’t guide a church body. wrong. what about god leading the nation of israel out of egypt via a pillar of fire? what about the testamony of the early church? what about the cannon of scripture?

You are taking me out of context.

I agree that the Holy Spirit can guide churches. I only say that the chapters referenced above don’t say specifically that it does. And also that those chapters don’t say anything specifically supporting the sense in which the Catholic church claims infallibility. Especially the chapters in John which talk about the Holy Spirit dwelling in each individual’s heart, not a church.

 

[Janet1983]

That’s a first time i’ve heard a prot say the holy spirit doesn’t guide a church body

CONDUCT RULES

 

[brakelite]

Brake, you forgot to answer the question. You don’t have to if you don’t want to…

I grew up and was raised in a Catholic family and as a Catholic. Educated in Catholic schools but fell away from all faith in my late teens.In my mid twenties I reached out to Christ, confessing my sins and wayward lifestyle and He answered me and thus began a relationship that endures today, 30 years later. After receiving Christ into my life and coming to know Him personally for the first time, I went back of course to my Catholic roots. However, when attempting to share my new found faith with the local priest and and sharing with him and others the joy I felt at being forgiven and given a new start in life, he looked at me as if I was speaking a foreign language, and as if he wanted to swat me away like some pesky fly. What Spirit I knew when Jesus came into my life was completely missing from that RCC church and those I met there. That is not to say that there weren’t some genuine Christians who attended that church, but I decided that that place was not for me. I went to a friends Presbyterian church for a few weeks, until settling on an AOG fellowship which I attended for many years.
However, I wasn’t completely satisfied they were teaching the full gospel and I had reservations concerning several teachings such as eternal torment and the Sabbath.
Again however, I fell away from all faith, though God in His great love never left me. When I again repented and turned to Him I pleaded for Him to lead me to a people/church/ fellowship that taught the truth.
Through providence and a number of miracles I was led to the church/denomination I have now been faithfully attending for 14 years.

I am a Seventh Day Adventist. While not claiming that my church is either infallible or has the whole truth, as I believe the search for truth is progressive, I do believe that my church is the closest that I know to pure apostolic Biblical truth.

 

[joe370]

Hey PLeeD…

=PLeeD;7169358]None of those chapters say anything about the Holy Spirit guiding the church. Matt 16 doesn’t even mention the Holy Spirit. In John the Holy Spirit is said to be sent to each of us, not to any church.

The apostles were the first leaders/members of the church established by Jesus.

Jesus said to His apostolic church: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor** to be with you forever…**

Does forever mean, until the last apostle dies or until Jesus returns? It means that Jesus will be with His church forever.

Jesus said to His apostolic church: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jesus’ apostolic church leaders, right from the word go, were endowed with the truth regarding all things that Jesus taught.

Jesus said to His apostolic church: When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Jesus’ apostolic church leaders, right from the word go, were endowed with the spirit of truth, Who proceeded to testify about Jesus.

Jesus said to His apostolic church: But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Jesus sent to His one apostolic church. the Counselor, (Who will be with Jesus’ church forever, according to John 14) - to guide His church, built on Kepha and the other apostles and prophets.

Jesus said to His one apostolic church: But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes,** he will guide you into all truth.** He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Jesus, who is forever with His one apostolic church, according to John 14, is guided by the holy spirit into all truth. According to the bible, this guidance did not end at the close of the apostolic age. This did not end upon the demise of the last apostle. Jesus said that He would be with the apostles (His apostolic church) - forever and that He would guide His apostolic church into all truth.

Where can one go to find all truth today, or, did all truth fade away due to the sin of man, after the last apostle passed on to be with Jesus, leaving us with just bits of truth here and there and everywhere, mixed in with bits of error here and there and everywhere?

You agree that the Holy Spirit dwells in every Christian’s heart.

Upon baptism - yup.

The Spirit is in our heart to lead us to truth.

If that were true then we would all embrace the same truths, but we don’t, so I cannot agree with you on that one. For example, some embrace: this is my body, while others embrace, this is a symbol of my body. Is the spirit of truth leading these folks, with opposing beliefs, doctrinally speaking, in different directions, doctrinally speaking? I don’t think so.

A church can help us find the truth, but the Holy Spirit is the authority, not any church.

So, take it right to the Holy spirit as opposed to any one church leadership? How in the world do I do that?

For the record, I’ve never attended any protestant church that claimed to be the sole vessel of infallible truth.

The CC does not make that claim either.

So most PC’s do claim to teach fallibly, at times?

If I ever found myself inside one, I’d make my way to the door as quickly and quietly as possible

So, to encapsulate, you believe that the holy spirit, who dwells in the hearts of every Christian, is leading each and every Christian to truth, in spite of the doctrinal division that exists in Christianity, but as far as the holy spirit leading any one specific church to truth, well, that’s just impossible???

The Spirit is in our heart to lead us to truth.

 

[joe370]

Brakelite, I am so sorry for you personal altercation with a member of the CC. I too had one myself long ago, but I decided not to let one person get in my way and prevent me from belonging to what I consider to be the church founded by Jesus, but that’s just me. If you truly believe in your heart soul and mind that Jesus has led you to a church where all truth can be found then I am so happy for you; I truly am Brakelite.

I grew up and was raised in a Catholic family and as a Catholic. Educated in Catholic schools but fell away from all faith in my late teens.In my mid twenties I reached out to Christ, confessing my sins and wayward lifestyle and He answered me and thus began a relationship that endures today, 30 years later. After receiving Christ into my life and coming to know Him personally for the first time, I went back of course to my Catholic roots. However, when attempting to share my new found faith with the local priest and and sharing with him and others the joy I felt at being forgiven and given a new start in life, he looked at me as if I was speaking a foreign language, and as if he wanted to swat me away like some pesky fly. What Spirit I knew when Jesus came into my life was completely missing from that RCC church and those I met there. That is not to say that there weren’t some genuine Christians who attended that church, but I decided that that place was not for me. I went to a friends Presbyterian church for a few weeks, until settling on an AOG fellowship which I attended for many years.
However, I wasn’t completely satisfied they were teaching the full gospel and I had reservations concerning several teachings such as eternal torment and the Sabbath.
Again however, I fell away from all faith, though God in His great love never left me. When I again repented and turned to Him I pleaded for Him to lead me to a people/church/ fellowship that taught the truth.
Through providence and a number of miracles I was led to the church/denomination I have now been faithfully attending for 14 years.

I am a Seventh Day Adventist. While not claiming that my church is either infallible or has the whole truth, as I believe the search for truth is progressive, I do believe that my church is the closest that I know to pure apostolic Biblical truth.

 

[PLeeD]

So, to encapsulate, you believe that the holy spirit, who dwells in the hearts of every Christian, is leading each and every Christian to truth, in spite of the doctrinal division that exists in Christianity, but as far as the holy spirit leading any one specific church to truth, well, that’s just impossible?

Jesus is love, not doctrine. So, yes, we can each be led by the Holy Spirit and yet differ on doctrine.

You claim that all Catholics agree 100% on doctrine? News flash, they don’t. Do those Catholics who differ from the CC on doctrine lack the Holy Spirit in their hearts?

I don’t say it’s impossible for the Holy Spirit to lead a church to absolute truth. With God all things are possible. I simply say that I don’t see any evidence that any existing church infallibly contains all truth.

For all your hand-waving with quotes of Jesus speaking to the apostles of the Holy Spirit, I can produce verses with apostles speaking of the presence of the Holy Spirit in each Christians heart. So what did Jesus really mean? That the Holy Spirit is only at work in the upper-echelons of the RCC organization? Or, did Jesus mean that the Holy Spirit will be given to all of His followers?

 

[mark_a]

I no longer even worry about such questions - I’ll let the churches squabble about matters of doctrine and dogma and who’s the One True Church and who has God on his side.

The Churches don’t squabble nearly as much as the folks who claim to have found the true church.

I have enough to do just trying to follow the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule.

Join the club.

 

[joe370]

Jesus is love, not doctrine. So, yes, we can each be led by the Holy Spirit and yet differ on doctrine.

You claim that all Catholics agree 100% on doctrine? News flash, they don’t. Do those Catholics who differ from the CC on doctrine lack the Holy Spirit in their hearts?

I don’t say it’s impossible for the Holy Spirit to lead a church to absolute truth. With God all things are possible. I simply say that I don’t see any evidence that any existing church infallibly contains all truth.

For all your hand-waving with quotes of Jesus speaking to the apostles of the Holy Spirit, I can produce verses with apostles speaking of the presence of the Holy Spirit in each Christians heart. So what did Jesus really mean? That the Holy Spirit is only at work in the upper-echelons of the RCC organization? Or, did Jesus mean that the Holy Spirit will be given to all of His followers?

Let’s assume for the duration of this thread, that the CC fell by the wayside or, that the CC is NOT the church founded by Jesus. No need to bring the CC up, anymore. Where would you suggest I go to find all truth, which was taught by the apostolic church, in the first century? People in the first century received all truth; shouldn’t people in the 21st century be privy to all truth?

 

[joe370]

The Churches don’t squabble nearly as much as the folks who claim to have found the true church.

Join the club.

Mark, maybe you are right. Maybe it doesn’t even matter which church we belong to.

 

[Javl]

What I can’t resolve is all these various Churches and denominations all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. If this were so, then how come that there are about 30,000 different denominations with each one going its own way “guided by the Holy Spirit”? With such mass confusion do we dare blame the Holy Spirit?

I believe, and totaly accept, what Jesus said to Caiphas. That He changed his name to Peter, made him the foundation of His Church ( with Jesus as the Cornerstone ), and gave him full power and authority to act in His name. I also believe that Jesus also said that He will always protect His Church ( which he has defended against Satan for 2000 years ) and that the Holy Spirit will guide and teach it ( alone, only ) in all truth. If Jesus is infallible ( He is God ), then His Church ( the Catholic Church ) has to be infallible.

This is the conclusion I have come to after much study of the early and contemporary Church, the early Church Fathers, various denominations, and much prayer.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Todd520]

it’s not really a problem if you accept that ROCK = WORD
Thus, Jesus built his church on the Gospel
And since all those denominations are teaching the same core gospel, the Church has flourished.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

A question for non-Catholics: Let’s assume that the non-Catholic position is correct regarding the notion that the Catholic Church cannot teach infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ, and cannot infallibly (in a non erroneous manner) - interpret sacred scripture. Where could one go to find a church that does claim to teach error free doctrine regarding the teachings of Jesus, and does claim to interpret sacred scripture in a non erroneous manner - in other words - infallibly?

This is a good question. The Mormon would tell you that their “prophet” can interpet the Scriptures without error. The Protestants would say that the Holy Spirit leads each man or woman through the Holy Spirit to a correct understanding of the Scriptures. Alas, this has resulted in multiple sects, all with different views.

The Eastern Orthodox, a church with a history as ancient as the Roman church (believers were first called Christians in Antioch of Syria), would say they are guided by their magesterium and sacred tradition to reach conclusions about accurate doctrine; the Anglicans feel similarly, although I believe they would also look to historic ecumenical councils as having strong (name removed by moderator)ut on the interpetation of Scriptures.