A question from a former non-Catholic, for non-Catholics...

[Javl]

If the Holy Spirit guides and safeguards the Catholic Church, why were there so many divisions among Christians since the very outset, why did the Church behave so oppressively by executing so many heretics and ‘witches’, why such massacres as the “Massacre of St. Bartholomew”, why was there a Reformation at all, why was it 400+ years later that the Church adopted such Reformation requests as worship in the vernacular - and we could go on?

Did you forget that God gave us free will? Even though the Holy Spirit was there to guide us He would not and could not force us to obey Him. All the various beliefs, divisions, heresies, etc. prove that. Also, Satan played a big role in the early Christian lives back then. I thank God for those Christians who did listen to Him and obey.

As one from a Catholic/Protestant background, I find it difficult to believe either in traditional Catholicism with all of its doctrines not substained by scripture or in sola scriptura Protestantism which keeps producing new denominations.

First off, there is really no such thing as “traditional Catholicism” ( but I do know what you mean ), secondly, everything that has been, and is, promulgated by the Catholic Church is backed up by scripture. There is ample proof of this. If you wish I can expand on this.

What I am finding more and more attractive is the ‘big tent’ attitude that seems strong among mainstream Protestants. Such groups as Methodists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and others seem happy to tolerate varying views on doctrine among themselves and yet also work together regardless of such disagreements. I think that may be a model for the Christianity of the future. That will push to one side the whole idea that any one group has a monopoly on spiritual truth. God alone has that monopoly and I’m satisfied with that. Meanwhile, I live by simply faith in the goodness of our one Lord and Savior and am not offended when a fellow Christian and I disagree on, say, the lifelong virginity of Mary or the doctrine of transubstantiation. “Think and let think. Agree amicably to disagree. Work together in the service of God and humankind.”

Maybe a good dose of that “old time religion” might do us all some good. It might bring us all back to listen to Jesus’ and the Apostles teachings. And, agreeing to disagree is not an option or solution to our differences. There should be no differences in beliefs among us since Jesus, the Apostles, and the Scriptures all teach one and the same truth. It is up to us to listen and understand. The trouble is we all have the idea that only we ( individuals ) know the truth and all others are mistaken. We should let go of the individualism and listen to the Apostles and especially Jesus, for why else would He establish a Church but to make us all one in belief and understanding.

 The longer I live the more I tend to think that most Catholics I know remain loyal out of a sense of tribalism - loyalty to cult, to family, to tradition. They aren't that much into doctrine, and those that are doubt some of them. Most Protestants I know have a similar loyalty, though they are much more likely to switch from one denomination to another for all sorts of reasons, ranging from the dynamism of the preacher and Sunday School facilities to distance from home and the neighbors who invited them to their church when they first moved in. They may be Methodists in Omaha, Presbyterians when they move to Pittsburgh and Congregationalists when they retire near their daughter in Springfield, MA.

I tend to agree with you here. It seems that all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant have that “Cafeteria” attitude. Individualism at its best, we all pick and choose what we like and reject the rest. Many times I wonder why Jesus and the Apostles and many of the early Christians bothered to establish a Church since we modern “Christians” seem to be so intent with our mindset to tear it apart and destroy it.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Hi Gregg, no offense taken and I actually understand your stand more than you may realise. I am a former Catholic, was raised and educated in Catholic institutions. I have been a Protestant for many years now, but the time I have been in this forum has brought to me memories long since forgotten. One thing I remember and am strongly reminded of is how much the ‘church’ dominates the Catholic mind. To my possibly over-simplistic perspective, it seems to me that the Bible is only the word of God if the church says so.
Another memory that I have been reminded of is how little Jesus features in the Catholic mind. When I was young the church was dominant, Mary featured regularly, but Jesus came up in conversation only rarely, and then only with a fear that placed Him at an unnecessary distance from the believer.That Jesus was a potential friend was never suggested, that He loved us was glossed over,; Mary was needed to placate His wrath.
Things have changed within Catholicism since I was one. It has been a long time. When I was a practicing Catholic the Bible was never referred to in any teaching. Scriptures, yes, but no-one explained where the scriptures actually came from.To me in those days the Bible was a book that sat on my paternal grandmothers shelf and something to fear. I couldn’t bring myself even to touch it out of some suspicion it may corrupt me. After all, it was less than 60 years before that time that Bible Societies were on the “syllabus of Errors” as heretical societies along with freemasonry.
When I gave my life to Christ over 30 years ago and it was recommended to me by a Protestant friend that I buy a Bible, I asked why?
So I rejoice that the Bible has taken a more prominent role in the life of the modern Catholic. But I am uncomfortable with the idea of deferring to mortal man the authority to decide for me what God is saying in the scriptures. If the Holy Spirit can teach the church, surely He can teach the individual within that church? For me as a Protestant I accept Jesus only as my authority; I stand or fall before Him and Him only as my Master. I do belong to a church, and in certain matters of church life they have authority over me and I am happy to submit myself to that authority, but one thing they do not have is authority to decide for me what I should believe in spiritual matters.
God bless, and thanks for your polite and carefully thought out reply. Appreciated.

Oh my… I am truly sorry you feel that way. Is there any way you can change your mind on this? I say that because the Church does not dominate minds; if it did, I certainly would not be a part of it. It is centered on Jesus Christ with His Body and Blood as the center of Christian worship. Everything you say the Church does not do, I have witnessed otherwise. Bible is used/referred to more times in the Church than any Protestant church I have ever been to. I play trumpet at them and even as an atheist I noticed hostility toward Catholics in services and gossip. I joined the Church because Christ was right (among other things but that is towards the top). Not to mention, the unknown and overwhelming presence I felt in the Catholic churches. Little did I know what it was. The Church only teaches doctrine from Scriptures (doctrine is quite different from spiritual matters). It may say to do things spiritually but each is left with his or her own individual self. The individual applies these doctrines and other verses in their daily spiritual lives in order to conform themselves to the will of God. As a Catholic, I also take Jesus (God) as my only authority. I only believe the Church (His Mystical Body) because He gave the authority to them in order that we all may be one.

I think you are honest. That is very hard to find in my Protestant friends. They are always ready to attack and not say what they actually believe and think. Would you mind reading something? “The World’s First Love” by Fulton Sheen. If it does bring you back to the Church, you will at least understand more fully the place of doctrine in our spiritual lives in addition to the spirituality you receive from your own study of Scripture. This does not contradict my previous statement.

As always, take care and God bless you on your search for Life, Truth and Love.
Gregg

 

[Roy5]

Hm! I find my Protestant and Catholic friends both honest and Gregg’s assertion that Protestants generally are not is quite offensive and false.

My problem with Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism is basically that I have trouble with being told what I must believe - and in such detail. Maybe I have too free a spirit, but I treasure the freedom to weigh ideas, to consider different viewpoints, to often conclude that several opinions may be perfectly Christian.

For example, did Mary live a sinless life? Catholicism teaches that true believers must accept that. Frankly, I don't know. I do read in the Bible that "all have sinned and fallen short". I also think of the time when Mary and Joseph traveled a whole day from Jerusalem and apparently hadn't missed the boy Jesus! Today parents might be arrested for such neglect. When I read the only two Gospel references to Mary between then and the crucifixion, in Matt 12:46-50 and John 2:4, on both occasions Christ seems a bit dismissive of his mother, Reread them and see for yourself. Sorry, but that's how these verses impact me. And why, in all of his letters to those early Christian churches, did Paul not once mention Mary? He was sending directions to those churches re doctrine and practice, but not a word suggesting that they pray to Mary, or regarding any Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, etc.?

 But, maybe Mary was sinless. I would leave this question and many others open, questions on which Christians could disagree and dialogue. But no, Catholicism requires strict conformity. 

 There is evidence to me that as people become better educated, they can't accept what earlier generations did. Our ancestors, most of them, had no problem believing primitive notions, but not today. I fear that Christianity must adapt or in 100 years it will be viewed as most of us view astrology today. The notion that we must stick to ancient traditions, many of them not found in scripture, is one I cannot accept.

 

[ignatius777]

Its been my experience that most churches teach theirs is the correct or infallable one. Thats where prayer comes in and a conscientious study of the bible and compare that with who is teaching what. Then you have to make a choice about what you believe

 

[Roy5]

Ignatius777

My experience is very different. I have found that most mainline Protestant churches - Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, United Church of Christ, some Lutheran, etc. - definitely do not claim to be the one true church. To begin with, they appear to tolerate a wide variety of theological and doctrine views among members, all the way from traditional and even fundamentalist to those holding on to Christianity by a thread. I have attended a few ecumenical Bible studies and these Protestants seem to be relaxed about different interpretations of this or that verse. Moreover, of course, these denominations work together and indicate mutual respect through the World and National Councils of Churches. 

Fundamentalist denominations usually are quite dogmatic. I also have discovered that most Eastern Orthodox priests are also. They often really think they alone are the one, true apostolic church. Some appear deeply bitter toward Catholicism and have a very condescending attitude toward Protestantism.

 Perhaps a footnote about the Pentecostalists should be added. Such groups often are less doctrinal and more focused upon 'religious experience'. If a person has been saved, and especially if s/he has received the second Baptism (spoken in tongues), theology is not such a major concern. 

 In contrast, Catholicism insists that it alone has the full spiritual truth and that everyone else within Christendom is wrong. This is what alienates many who (like me) treasure the freedom to discuss openly this or that matter. I have a really bad time with things that smack heavily of superstition, such as apparitions (Fatima, Lourdes, etc.), and many stories re saints. Some are ancient tales of incredible miracles. More recently, did Padre Pio really levitate, bilocate, etc.? I can't honestly say that I can believe that. Veneration of relics and faith in various miraculous medals trouble me, too. Too many 'pagan' embellishments to the basically simple faith as taught by Christ.

 Possibly I am simply too rational and need what I view as a reasonable faith. I regret this because Catholicism has many strengths and does much wonderful work on behalf of humanity. But I also need to be honest. I'm watching carefully to see who wins out within Catholicism: traditionalists or those interested in reform? It appears that the former are in the driver's seat today. I had a special affection and appreciation for John XXIII. I admire  John Paul II and Benedict XVI as men of enormous energy and mental ability, but I fear that they have been stacking the deck against those who want to make the church more relevant to our world today.

 

[StTommyMore]

Hm! I find my Protestant and Catholic friends both honest and Gregg’s assertion that Protestants generally are not is quite offensive and false.

My problem with Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism is basically that I have trouble with being told what I must believe - and in such detail. Maybe I have too free a spirit, but I treasure the freedom to weigh ideas, to consider different viewpoints, to often conclude that several opinions may be perfectly Christian.

For example, did Mary live a sinless life? Catholicism teaches that true believers must accept that. Frankly, I don't know. I do read in the Bible that "all have sinned and fallen short". I also think of the time when Mary and Joseph traveled a whole day from Jerusalem and apparently hadn't missed the boy Jesus! Today parents might be arrested for such neglect. When I read the only two Gospel references to Mary between then and the crucifixion, in Matt 12:46-50 and John 2:4, on both occasions Christ seems a bit dismissive of his mother, Reread them and see for yourself. Sorry, but that's how these verses impact me. And why, in all of his letters to those early Christian churches, did Paul not once mention Mary? He was sending directions to those churches re doctrine and practice, but not a word suggesting that they pray to Mary, or regarding any Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, etc.?

 But, maybe Mary was sinless. I would leave this question and many others open, questions on which Christians could disagree and dialogue. But no, Catholicism requires strict conformity. 

 There is evidence to me that as people become better educated, they can't accept what earlier generations did. Our ancestors, most of them, had no problem believing primitive notions, but not today. I fear that Christianity must adapt or in 100 years it will be viewed as most of us view astrology today. The notion that we must stick to ancient traditions, many of them not found in scripture, is one I cannot accept.

This speaks volumes. You don’t want to be told what to do. This is what is the problem with modern Christianity. No respect for authority.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Read my above statement and retract your false conclusion. I said it is hard to find in MY friends; in any case, I never said it was impossible. But, I sincerely apologize. The last thing I would want to do is insult my Christian brethren. Forgive me.

I will add to what you said to lead you from your ignorance of the Church. “Catholicism requires strict conformity TO TRUTH.” “Adapting” to the traditions of man (the Catholic definition; seeing your rigorous studies of the Church, you should know the definition) is exactly something Christ did not want us to do. For example, the modern of idea of sex strictly for pleasure or that money will get you complete happiness. Christ (a.k.a. God, if this confuses anybody) commanded and the Church obeys. It is nothing more or less than that. And please stop with the assertion that they are not found in Scripture. We have defended this and it is conclusive, otherwise we would have no converts from Protestants. This is also why we have Sacred Tradition as oral and written. Go to the “Faith” section of this site to see that Scripture is not all there is in belief. It even says this IN Scripture. Sola Scriptura practice would lead one to the Church and Sacred Tradition (Big T). Prayer is an “ancient tradition”. Would you stop praying? Putting a ring on the fiance is ancient tradition (from pagan roots I might add). Are we going to stop? Marriage is ancient tradition. Belief, penance, sacrifice, studying Scripture, dining, reading, writing, music, etc… All traditions up the stretch of the word. The Church will not stop and be in accord with modern times. I realize some of these are not made by the Church but my point is still valid. The modern soul knows no peace because they wish to do just that. Wars, ecomonic recessions, crimes, etc… would not have happened if it had not already happened in the soul of man.

Your idea that “as people become better educated” leaves a huge mark of pride on yourself. I would not dare say that I am better educated than Plato, Socrates, Augustine, Aquinas, Einstein, Newton, Calvin, Luther, Nietzche, Chesterton, Stein, Teresa, Therese, etc… Sure we may know more facts and figures like how to make a car, relativity, pulmonary embollisms, volcanoes, etc… In any case, would you say we were better educated? Perhaps, of worldly things, but most modern Christians (much less non-Christians) cannot even say that we know more about Our Lord and Savior than we do about a computer program or what not. It seems as if Plato, Aristotle, Sophocles and Socrates knew more about Christ, the soul and morality than most of us do as odd as that sounds. The thought of this breaks my heart. Really… I am almost in tears here.

Anyway, Mary is so much misunderstood outside the Church that it would be pointless to argue ad infinitum. If you do not want Mary, tell Jesus that you do not want her. Tell Jesus that you want to obey Him but not the authority He gave to the Apostles. It is all there. You have good intentions with a screen of pride in the way. I do too but not when it comes to the God’s Sovereign Authority. He can give it to whomever He wishes. That whomever is Christianity, The Catholic Church. I am a servant of the Truth. We have God and His Friends (Mary, Queen of Heaven, the angels, the saints and martyrs) there for us because He is God of the living. They are not in some vault somewhere. They are the “cloud of witnesses.” Christianity is alive today because of what these people did for the Church. The contemporaries thought the saints and martyrs as poison when they were actually the antidotes. Read about some of them and extra-human ability to love Love Itself, Truth and Life, especially the martyrs (my personal favorites). Seriously, read about them and their holy lives. Read the North American Martyrs with the Iriquois Indians and the baptisms in boiling hot water. Saint Maximilian Kolbe, Edith Stein (my favorite saint). Even non-saints. Chesterton, Sheen, Kempis, Merton. I completely agree that some Catholics may be among the worst people who have ever lived; on the other hand, it is a significant reality that the saints (Catholics) are the best human beings who have ever lived behind Him Whom they were created through (Christ) and Our Blessed Mother, Mary.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Read my above statement and retract your false conclusion. I said it is hard to find in MY friends; in any case, I never said it was impossible. But, I sincerely apologize. The last thing I would want to do is insult my Christian brethren. Forgive me.

I will add to what you said to lead you from your ignorance of the Church. “Catholicism requires strict conformity TO TRUTH.” “Adapting” to the traditions of man (the Catholic definition; seeing your rigorous studies of the Church, you should know the definition) is exactly something Christ did not want us to do. For example, the modern of idea of sex strictly for pleasure or that money will get you complete happiness. Christ (a.k.a. God, if this confuses anybody) commanded and the Church obeys. It is nothing more or less than that. And please stop with the assertion that they are not found in Scripture. We have defended this and it is conclusive, otherwise we would have no converts from Protestants. This is also why we have Sacred Tradition as oral and written. Go to the “Faith” section of this site to see that Scripture is not all there is in belief. It even says this IN Scripture. Sola Scriptura practice would lead one to the Church and Sacred Tradition (Big T). Prayer is an “ancient tradition”. Would you stop praying? Putting a ring on the fiance is ancient tradition (from pagan roots I might add). Are we going to stop? Marriage is ancient tradition. Belief, penance, sacrifice, studying Scripture, dining, reading, writing, music, etc… All traditions up the stretch of the word. The Church will not stop and be in accord with modern times. I realize some of these are not made by the Church but my point is still valid. The modern soul knows no peace because they wish to do just that. Wars, ecomonic recessions, crimes, etc… would not have happened if it had not already happened in the soul of man.

Your idea that “as people become better educated” leaves a huge mark of pride on yourself. I would not dare say that I am better educated than Plato, Socrates, Augustine, Aquinas, Einstein, Newton, Calvin, Luther, Nietzche, Chesterton, Stein, Teresa, Therese, etc… Sure we may know more facts and figures like how to make a car, relativity, pulmonary embollisms, volcanoes, etc… In any case, would you say we were better educated? Perhaps, of worldly things, but most modern Christians (much less non-Christians) cannot even say that we know more about Our Lord and Savior than we do about a computer program or what not. It seems as if Plato, Aristotle, Sophocles and Socrates knew more about Christ, the soul and morality than most of us do as odd as that sounds. The thought of this breaks my heart. Really… I am almost in tears here.

Anyway, Mary is so much misunderstood outside the Church that it would be pointless to argue ad infinitum. If you do not want Mary, tell Jesus that you do not want her. Tell Jesus that you want to obey Him but not the authority He gave to the Apostles. It is all there. You have good intentions with a screen of pride in the way. I do too but not when it comes to the God’s Sovereign Authority. He can give it to whomever He wishes. That whomever is Christianity, The Catholic Church. I am a servant of the Truth. We have God and His Friends (Mary, Queen of Heaven, the angels, the saints and martyrs) there for us because He is God of the living. They are not in some vault somewhere. They are the “cloud of witnesses.” Christianity is alive today because of what these people did for the Church. The contemporaries thought the saints and martyrs as poison when they were actually the antidotes. Read about some of them and extra-human ability to love Love Itself, Truth and Life, especially the martyrs (my personal favorites). Seriously, read about them and their holy lives. Read the North American Martyrs with the Iriquois Indians and the baptisms in boiling hot water. Saint Maximilian Kolbe, Edith Stein (my favorite saint). Even non-saints. Chesterton, Sheen, Kempis, Merton. I completely agree that some Catholics may be among the worst people who have ever lived; on the other hand, it is a significant reality that the saints (Catholics) are the best human beings who have ever lived behind Him Whom they were created through (Christ) and Our Blessed Mother, Mary.

great post!

 

[Javl]

Its been my experience that most churches teach theirs is the correct or infallable one. Thats where prayer comes in and a conscientious study of the bible and compare that with who is teaching what. Then you have to make a choice about what you believe

There is only one infallible Church and that is the Catholic Church which is the Church founded by Jesus. Jesus, as God, is infallible, therefore His Church has to be infallible. For Him to found a fallible organization is unreasonable and makes no sense.
Also, since the Catholic Church is under the protection of Jesus, per His promise, and under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, also by His promise, it can be nothing else but infallible. As for its members being infallible…that’s another story.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

ROY5:

Please read my post #148. The Catholic Church does not force anyone to believe. But, all that it teaches are required beliefs. Since we have been given free will by God, we can accept or reject these teachings. Everything that the Catholic Church teaches is based in Scripture and Sacred or Holy Tradition. These traditions are mentioned by Paul and the early Church fathers. Not everything taught by Jesus and the Apostles is in the Bible. Many of these traditions which are held sacred by the Catholic Church are also held sacred by the Orthodox and Protestants. As an example, keeping Sunday as the Lord’s Day is not written in scripture but is a Sacred Tradition.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Roy5]

It’s true that Catholicism doesn’t force anyone to accept its doctrines in our day. Fortunately, religious liberty gradually prevailed in most of the western world, There certainly was a time when heretics were executed.

As for Sunday being the Sabbath, there is some Biblical basis for that. See Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16:2, and Rev. 1:10. And, of course, the resurrection was on the first day of the week, and Sunday worship is in large part to celebrate that central event. But, probably the Romans had a lot to do with choosing Sunday. All of our days each week are named after celestial bodies or gods/goddesses.

In that connection many elements within Christianity were influenced by the Greco-Roman culture. The emphasis on virginity, for example, certainly not a Jewish focus. But there were Vestal Virgins and such among the 'pagans'. The Papacy. I have seen the Pope in Rome and it struck me that the adulation accorded him may have echoed that accorded the Emperor 2000 years ago. Certainly the vestments of priests reflect that era. And we could go on and on. Dec, 25 was the birthday of a variety of ancient gods. Etc.

I don't pretend to be better educated, but I think it's a simple reality that the more education today tends to lead to greater 'free thinking'. That can be denied, but I believe it is true. How else do you explain the dramatic rise in 'no religion' among Americans?  It has a lot to do with who is doing the educating, also. In my home town, for example, there was a Catholic elementary school, high school and 'Juniorate' for teens thinking of the priesthood. These all closed some years ago. This has been repeated in hundreds of communities. 

 I admire many of the saints, including martyrs. I do have mixed feelings about some of the missionaries who accompanied the European invaders, especially in Latin America, where some of the infigenous people had to choose between death and conversion. Since I am part Frencfh-Canadian and even a bit Algonquin, I also have some questions about missionary work among some of the Native Americans, both by the English and French. I recently read *Champlain's Dream.*, a fascinating account of early Quebec. The French Catholics were more humane than the English Protestants - generally speaking - but neither deserves sustained applause. They both brought weapons that helped one tribe slaughter another. 

 Well, we would go on. But it's late. I presume it's true that I have a basic problem with a church which claims to be the one true religion. That's part of our trouble with Islam today. It, too, claims to be the one true religion. Most Catholics and Protestants I know well don't believe that. Some elements of the Catholic Church will continue to chant this refrain, but most Americans have come to the realization that we should trust in God and live by faith, but that the era for insisting on this or that and often subordinate doctrine is past. We can be people of enormous faith and still appreciate the beliefs of one another rather than condemn them as erroneous. We'll know someday 'when the roll is called upon yonder' and we find the place crowded with Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc - plus plenty of good-living, compassionate atheists and agnostics.

  God bless Catholics, Protestants and those of every creed, color and country. May religion serve as a bridge instead of as a barrier.

 

[Janet1983]

Please read my post #148. The Catholic Church does not force anyone to believe. But, all that it teaches are required beliefs.

Just so that I understand what you are truly trying to say without presupposing anything that you might not have tried to say I have a couple of questions:

1. What is the difference between forcing someone to believe and telling him that he has an obligation to believe? Isn’t it impossible to force a belief onto anybody? Isn’t then requiring a belief (or remaining silent about an unbelief) a force already?
2. If the Church does not force anybody to believe, why then is unbelief sanctioned? Why are those who do not believe called apostates, those who differ in their beliefs heretics and those who believe, but do not submit to the pope schismatics? Why, if the Church does not force any Catholic to believe, is the punishment for unbelief (in the forms mentioned above) excommunication?

I am being forced to do my taxes. If I don’t, I will get punished. Whether or not I am doing my taxes out of my free will or not does not matter concerning the fact that I am forced under the threat of punishment of I disobey.

Maybe you can tell me what the difference is because I can’t seem to understand it.

 

[Roy5]

Good point, Janet. True, the Church cannot force anyone to believe. Th Inquisition is long past, and we thank God for that. But over the years I have been severely warned by a couple priests and a few ardent Catholics that if I persist in rejecting any part of required Catholic doctrine I am an apostate, a heretic, and in danger of you know what. This has ceased to intimidate me because I believe God is just and merciful, and I even think the Lord is appreciative of those who take matters of faith seriously enough to spend time focusing on them. It has been this process that has led me to my present ‘independent’ status. I certainly seek to follow Christ and live by his message of love, but resist all the excess doctrines and practices that can so easily get in the way. For example, why do we have to believe in transubstantiation or the perpetual virginity of Mary to truly love God and one another, the core of the Gospel?

The more I think about it, the more I tend toward this theory. Traditionalist Catholics (not the majority in the USA today, perhaps) seem caught in a time warp. They so often glorify past eras when Catholicism dominated. As for myself, I find many problems with the world today, of course, but I certainly don't romanticize earlier times when there was wholesale slavery, when strict class lines were enforced, when the average life span was 40 or so, when monarchs exercised absolute power, when democracy and genuine freedom were non-existent, when most people were illiterate, when religious liberty was not permitted, when health care was minimal - and we could go on. Not bad for that small sliver of society that was in control, royalty and friends, but not very good for everyone else. 

 This hit me (again) today when I was watching a film on Columbus on EWTN. I am not particularly hostile toward Columbus but the attempt to idolize him as a great Christian strikes me as a bit absurd. It's true that he 'discovered America' - in quotes, of course - but the Spanish explorers and their armies were brutal to the native population and efforts to excuse all that because they 'brought Christ to the heathen' is deceptive.. They also brought deadly diseases, wholesale oppressive, wildspread violence and murder, intolerance, etc. If you happened to see "God in America" on PBS recently, the first segment indicated that Native Americans in what is now New Mexico attacked these early conquerers and killed half of the priests because of what they saw as ruthless Spanish aggression. 

  God bless people of all faiths - and of none. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[wisdomseeker]

It’s true that Catholicism doesn’t force anyone to accept its doctrines in our day. Fortunately, religious liberty gradually prevailed in most of the western world, There certainly was a time when heretics were executed.

As for Sunday being the Sabbath, there is some Biblical basis for that. See Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16:2, and Rev. 1:10. And, of course, the resurrection was on the first day of the week, and Sunday worship is in large part to celebrate that central event. But, probably the Romans had a lot to do with choosing Sunday. All of our days each week are named after celestial bodies or gods/goddesses.

In that connection many elements within Christianity were influenced by the Greco-Roman culture. The emphasis on virginity, for example, certainly not a Jewish focus. But there were Vestal Virgins and such among the 'pagans'. The Papacy. I have seen the Pope in Rome and it struck me that the adulation accorded him may have echoed that accorded the Emperor 2000 years ago. Certainly the vestments of priests reflect that era. And we could go on and on. Dec, 25 was the birthday of a variety of ancient gods. Etc.

I don't pretend to be better educated, but I think it's a simple reality that the more education today tends to lead to greater 'free thinking'. That can be denied, but I believe it is true. How else do you explain the dramatic rise in 'no religion' among Americans?  It has a lot to do with who is doing the educating, also. In my home town, for example, there was a Catholic elementary school, high school and 'Juniorate' for teens thinking of the priesthood. These all closed some years ago. This has been repeated in hundreds of communities. 

 I admire many of the saints, including martyrs. I do have mixed feelings about some of the missionaries who accompanied the European invaders, especially in Latin America, where some of the infigenous people had to choose between death and conversion. Since I am part Frencfh-Canadian and even a bit Algonquin, I also have some questions about missionary work among some of the Native Americans, both by the English and French. I recently read *Champlain's Dream.*, a fascinating account of early Quebec. The French Catholics were more humane than the English Protestants - generally speaking - but neither deserves sustained applause. They both brought weapons that helped one tribe slaughter another. 

 Well, we would go on. But it's late. I presume it's true that I have a basic problem with a church which claims to be the one true religion. That's part of our trouble with Islam today. It, too, claims to be the one true religion. Most Catholics and Protestants I know well don't believe that. Some elements of the Catholic Church will continue to chant this refrain, but most Americans have come to the realization that we should trust in God and live by faith, but that the era for insisting on this or that and often subordinate doctrine is past. We can be people of enormous faith and still appreciate the beliefs of one another rather than condemn them as erroneous. We'll know someday 'when the roll is called upon yonder' and we find the place crowded with Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc - plus plenty of good-living, compassionate atheists and agnostics.

  God bless Catholics, Protestants and those of every creed, color and country. May religion serve as a bridge instead of as a barrier.

The reason you speak this way is because you dont know the Truth, if you did, you would give your life for it. Jesus is mostly concerned with our souls than how unjust the life is on earth. that is what our Martirs of the CC did. they gave their lives for the Catholic Faith. Jesus gave His life for us, He also require that we also do the same. that is what happened to the Apostles also. to not believe in His Church, it is to profane against God who built the Church.

 

[Roy5]

Wisdomseeker

“Different strokes for different folks.”

We see things differently, and thank God we live in a country where we can express our views honestly. 

 I appreciate a deep faith, but I am less comfortable with a faith leads someone to demean and judge those who do not share it.

 God bless.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Hi Roy and Janet,
There has to come a time when over-tolerance to Truth (the Buddhist idea that everyone is right) has to be condemned. I agree that the way the Church has done is inhumane and events like the Inquisition ought not have happened. This is why John Paul II made a public confession of how sorry the Church was.

But, these events have NOTHING to do with Truth. If I can recall, most of the Aztecs (about 7 millions) were converted by a Marian apparition. Hardly superstitious if you made an honest attempt to understand it and see past your presuppositional bias against it (and Fatima, Lourdes, and possibly Medjugorje, etc…). If you do not think God can do miracles past things like a quesadilla (www.grilledcheesejesus.com), then you are morbidly mistaken. Read “The Song of Bernadette”, “Our Lady’s Call from Medjugorje”, “Truth and Tolerance”, “The World’s First Love”, “The Gift of Infallibility”, Karl Keating, etc… The list of books that you have not read about Truth and the relevance of doctrine in our lives is non-existent. I admit some non-Catholic books I have read are great and worthy of my time in reading, but none of them (I have read about 30) said ANYTHING useful about carrying the Cross, suffering, hell, Purgatory (understandably), evil, loneliness, and just the bad times in our lives. Does that justify anything? Certainly not! And your ideas of us sinning do not justify anything. Clearly you misunderstood my previous. Catholics are among the worst but Catholics (saints) are the best human beings to have ever walked this world. I will defend this point. There is a reason why we believe (transcending knowing) they are in heaven.

And Janet had no good points, Roy. The pride is overwhelming. They are just questions, not statements of facts. I will not answer them because non-Catholics will not listen as we have already tried. Anyway, we are more tolerant than most think. The Church does not tolerate untruth in itself; that is why we exommunicate (in matters relating to this anyway) ONLY those who teach the faithful something different than the Church. That would go against Jesus teaching of what the Church should be. I have many Catholic friends who have doubts on some doctrine. They are still un-excommunicated Catholics. Imagine that. Non-Catholics wrong about Catholicism.

We do not demean nor judge because our faith leads us to do that; some of us do it because we are fallen, although that is no excuse. It seems as if Catholics are the only judgers when you put it that way. But your statements (in addition to mine I suppose) reek heavily of judgments, derogatory statements and remarks denigration from a Holy Church to evil people. Jesus is right is more right than I could have imagined.

I have made (and still do) a search fo Life, Truth and Love since a few months before my conversion from atheism and found all those in here. The doctrines of the Church have more relevance in and to our lives than anybody could even think, especially non-Catholics. Just a few examples, the Virginity of Mary, the Eucharist, Faith and Works, saints and martyrs, Assumption of Mary, Immaculate Conception, Mother of God, Divinity of Christ, Trinity, Purgatory, Hell, Heaven, Free Will and Predestination, the Fall, Baptism, Marriage, Sacramentals, etc… I would be happy to answer any honest questions and dishonest questions. There is more Truth in these than you or I could imagine. Life, Truth and Love are the only things we should ever need and want. God is all three of these and they come from God. If you erase all biases against the Church (seeing as there are many so I would understand the difficulty) make a completely honest search for Christ and His teachings, you will find yourself in His Mystical Body. Is this hubris? Possibly, but it is also true.

You all talk so much of Christ that you seem to completely forget about him in your cruel statements against us. Some of us defending are guilty of that as well but that is because we believe we are defending His Mystical Body and have Christ engraved (putting on Christ, as St. Paul said it) in our bodies, intellect, emotions, wills and our I through the Eucharist and the other sacraments. Me personally, I am all about tolerating beliefs, whether or not I agree but I do abide by 1 Peter 3 even if someone does not ask. I have disagreed in content with my own Catholics: Chesterton and Sheen (my two favorite authors) to name a couple. I am very objective unfortunately (it is a hindrance in some areas).

We lift up your hearts to the Lord. It is right to Him thanks and praise. This about sums up the Church. Not me. Not you.

God bless you all in your search for Life, Truth and Love.

Gregg

 

[GreggAlvarez]

On that last part, I meant “We lift up OUR hearts to the Lord.” But I suppose there is some truth to my typo (We lift up YOUR hearts to the Lord) because the Church does help with the lifting. Maybe not directly but certainly indirectly.
Sorry about that!
Gregg

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdomseeker

“Different strokes for different folks.”

We see things differently, and thank God we live in a country where we can express our views honestly. 

 I appreciate a deep faith, but I am less comfortable with a faith leads someone to demean and judge those who do not share it.

 God bless.

you live in a country that allows you to believe whatever you want. well, as a Catholic I am more concern in to know the Truth of Christ. it is not the country that teaches me about Christ but it is the One Holy Church to whom the Truth was entrusted to teach all man from age to age. God doesnt call us to be confortable but to seek, to find and to know the One Truth and obey. how are you going to obey if all you want is to be confortable with what you believe? the Truth iis to be guarded and passed on without being tainted. the excuse for those who do not know the Truth is that they must not be judged. well, Jesus said that those who reject the teachings of the Apostles are also rejecting Him and hte Father. so, if one rejects the Church is not only rejecting the Apostles Church, but also Jesus and His Father, therefore not pleasing to God. it doesnt matter what you say. Jesus said it. it is final.

Macarius, Bishop of Magnesia, Apocriticus, 3:23, 400 AD
Christ took the bread and the cup, each in similar fashion, and said,
“This is My Body and this is My Blood.” Not a figure of His Body nor
a figure of His Blood, as some persons of petrified mind are wont to rhapsodize, but in truth the Body and the Blood of Christ, seeing that His
Body is from the earth, and the bread and wine are likewise from the earth.

 

[Javl]

It’s true that Catholicism doesn’t force anyone to accept its doctrines in our day. Fortunately, religious liberty gradually prevailed in most of the western world, There certainly was a time when heretics were executed.

As for Sunday being the Sabbath, there is some Biblical basis for that. See Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16:2, and Rev. 1:10. And, of course, the resurrection was on the first day of the week, and Sunday worship is in large part to celebrate that central event. But, probably the Romans had a lot to do with choosing Sunday. All of our days each week are named after celestial bodies or gods/goddesses.

In that connection many elements within Christianity were influenced by the Greco-Roman culture. The emphasis on virginity, for example, certainly not a Jewish focus. But there were Vestal Virgins and such among the 'pagans'. The Papacy. I have seen the Pope in Rome and it struck me that the adulation accorded him may have echoed that accorded the Emperor 2000 years ago. Certainly the vestments of priests reflect that era. And we could go on and on. Dec, 25 was the birthday of a variety of ancient gods. Etc.

I don't pretend to be better educated, but I think it's a simple reality that the more education today tends to lead to greater 'free thinking'. That can be denied, but I believe it is true. How else do you explain the dramatic rise in 'no religion' among Americans?  It has a lot to do with who is doing the educating, also. In my home town, for example, there was a Catholic elementary school, high school and 'Juniorate' for teens thinking of the priesthood. These all closed some years ago. This has been repeated in hundreds of communities. 

 I admire many of the saints, including martyrs. I do have mixed feelings about some of the missionaries who accompanied the European invaders, especially in Latin America, where some of the infigenous people had to choose between death and conversion. Since I am part Frencfh-Canadian and even a bit Algonquin, I also have some questions about missionary work among some of the Native Americans, both by the English and French. I recently read *Champlain's Dream.*, a fascinating account of early Quebec. The French Catholics were more humane than the English Protestants - generally speaking - but neither deserves sustained applause. They both brought weapons that helped one tribe slaughter another. 

 Well, we would go on. But it's late. I presume it's true that I have a basic problem with a church which claims to be the one true religion. That's part of our trouble with Islam today. It, too, claims to be the one true religion. Most Catholics and Protestants I know well don't believe that. Some elements of the Catholic Church will continue to chant this refrain, but most Americans have come to the realization that we should trust in God and live by faith, but that the era for insisting on this or that and often subordinate doctrine is past. We can be people of enormous faith and still appreciate the beliefs of one another rather than condemn them as erroneous. We'll know someday 'when the roll is called upon yonder' and we find the place crowded with Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc - plus plenty of good-living, compassionate atheists and agnostics.

  God bless Catholics, Protestants and those of every creed, color and country. May religion serve as a bridge instead of as a barrier.

There is truth in what you say. But, please don’t judge the occurances and events of yesterday by today’s standards. Life was completely different back then.

I have used the Biblical verses you quote, plus a few others, in my discussions about the Lord’s day with Adventists. But no matter which way you look at it, there is no commandment to keep Sunday holy. If you understand the verses you list you will see that the Lord’s day is a tradition started by the Apostles.

As for Dec. 25th. If you read its history you will find that the Church celebrated on that day long before the pagans did. It was in 275 AD when the emperor of Rome decided to set that day aside to worship the sun as “Sol Invictus” ( Invincible Sun ).

Every one of your objections can be answered legitimately. Please read and learn about the early Church and Church fathers. There is an awful lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions that can be corrected by doing so. God Bless.

Len ( Javl )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Just so that I understand what you are truly trying to say without presupposing anything that you might not have tried to say I have a couple of questions:

1. What is the difference between forcing someone to believe and telling him that he has an obligation to believe? Isn’t it impossible to force a belief onto anybody? Isn’t then requiring a belief (or remaining silent about an unbelief) a force already?
2. If the Church does not force anybody to believe, why then is unbelief sanctioned? Why are those who do not believe called apostates, those who differ in their beliefs heretics and those who believe, but do not submit to the pope schismatics? Why, if the Church does not force any Catholic to believe, is the punishment for unbelief (in the forms mentioned above) excommunication?

I am being forced to do my taxes. If I don’t, I will get punished. Whether or not I am doing my taxes out of my free will or not does not matter concerning the fact that I am forced under the threat of punishment of I disobey.

Maybe you can tell me what the difference is because I can’t seem to understand it.

There is a difference if you stop to think about it. When a statement is made, whether true or not, you have the God given right of free will to accept or reject it.

Now, if you live in a dictatorial society you are forced to accept that statement if you wish to continue living without any trouble. It is a matter of physical life and death.

And then, you as a Christian accept without reservation all the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. These teachings all lead to the salvation of your soul, therefore you are obliged to believe and accept them.

Excommunication in any Church ( Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant ) is a form of punishment for those who deride the teachings and cause others to put their salvation in jeopardy. If the excommunicant recants and shows remorse and atones for the error(s), then the excommunication is lifted.

Better and exact definitions and answers to your questions are in the Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem