A question from a former non-Catholic, for non-Catholics...

[Roy5]

A few responses

** 1. Hm! I’m wondering where you read the ‘cruel statements against us…’** I thought we were having a dialogue, expressing our views, and nothing I’ve written strikes me as cruel.
I respect much of the good work Catholicism does in feeding the poor, providing hospitals and schools, and in other ways benefiting humanity. But that is totally unrelated to acceptance of Catholic doctrines.

** 2. I have read several of the Church Fathers.** Did I tell you earlier that I come from a Catholic/Protestant background, spent time in a Trappist monastery in Oka, Quebec, attend mass often, read Our Sunday Visitorand other Catholic publications, watch EWTN, etc.? So I don’t believe I should be accused of not knowing what Catholicism teaches. As for the Church Fathers, they were brilliant men for their age, but their writings are peppered with naive (false) statements based on the fact that they didn’t have a good telescope and thought the earth was the center of the universe, nor a good microscope and they traced disease to demons, punishment, etc. This is not to demean their work, but simply to excuse them their primitive ideas because of the age they lived in.

** 3. Now, as to the correct Sabbath, I personally don't care.** Jews, 7th Day Adventists, etc, insist it be Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown. Christians celebrate the resurrection on the first day. Actually, the calendar has been altered enough over the cemturies that we really don't know what at this stage would be the 7th day or the 1st day. I'm not interested in such legalism. Set aside a day for spiritual worship and reflection. I suspect that this is what God might have in mind???

** 4. I don’t have all the facts at my fingertips and can’t spend a lot of time doing research, but various gods and goddesses were said said to have been born on Dec. 25 or thereabouts**. That, of course, is near the winter solstice when daylight slowly begins to increase. For example, Attis, son or the Virgin Nana (who also was crucified, etc); Dionysius, a Greek deity; Osiris of Egypt; the Persian Mithra whose cult was tough competition for early Christianity,; Nimrod, born of a a virgin, son of Baal; the Babylonian Queen of Heaven, Tammuz; and others. The Roman worship of the sun may have come later, but that doesn’t effect my suggestion that paganism is likely to have led to Dec 25 being selected as Christ’s birthday. As you know, that whole scenario is heavily debated by scholars. The shepherds, for example, were not in the fields, keeping watch over their sheep, in late December. And, of course, Jesus probably wa sborn abour 4 BC, givbe or take a year or two. Etc.

** 5. I know that the most common criticism of those of us who cannot believe some Catholic doctrines is that we refuse to yield to authority, and this usually is traced to our ego, stubbornness, rebelliousness, etc.** Personally I need what I consider a reasonable religion, and I simply have concluded over the years that there are too many beliefs within Catholicism that strike me as questionable, even maybe superstitions or folklore rather than facts or truth. I don’t want to keep making this same point. I am happy that traditional Catholics find comfort and security in their faith. I know from Catholic family members and friends that it can be a source of strength. But I have gradually moved further and further toward mainstream Protestantism. Such denominations as the Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, the United Church of Christ and some others appear to have a ‘big tent’. They welcome ‘true believers’ but also skeptics, doubters, and some (like me) who treasure the freedom and the excitement that come from exploring, investigating and weighing different ideas in the realm of spirituality.

** 6. We can exercise this freedom and still strive to follow the core of the teachings of Christ.** Even he said: “Why do you call me good. There is none good except God.” That verse always caught my attention - among others. When he was presented with the direct question - what shall I do to inherit eternal life? - he didn’t focus on doctrine. He said love God and love one another. I’ll take my chances that if we try out best to do that we’ll live on in the kingdom.

** 7. God bless people of all faiths which promote the love of God and of one another. May religion become a bridge rather than a barrier. **

 

[Janet1983]

And Janet had no good points, Roy. The pride is overwhelming. They are just questions, not statements of facts. I will not answer them because non-Catholics will not listen as we have already tried. Anyway, we are more tolerant than most think. The Church does not tolerate untruth in itself; that is why we exommunicate (in matters relating to this anyway) ONLY those who teach the faithful something different than the Church. That would go against Jesus teaching of what the Church should be. I have many Catholic friends who have doubts on some doctrine. They are still un-excommunicated Catholics. Imagine that. Non-Catholics wrong about Catholicism.

I cannot speak for Roy, but I for my part am an ex-Catholic. I am an ex-Catholic precisely for the reasons Roy stated. I do more than just doubt dogmata, I reject some Catholic dogmata. I was part of the Catholic Church and I did so without being forced to do it and I still do not believe in the face of the Church’s teaching on them. That, by definition, makes me a heretic, resulting in that is a latæ sententiæ excommunication.

You say that the Catholic Church does not force anybody to believe anything. The Catholic Church does however declare someone who obstinately repudiates a truth of faith, with full knowledge, while exteriorly formulating a heretical proposition and propagating it, to have incurred excommunication on himself.
The Church expects Catholics to either believe, try to believe or submit to their authority (exterior actions mirror that of one who believes).
Failure to do either makes one a heretic if not a schismatic.

There is a difference if you stop to think about it. When a statement is made, whether true or not, you have the God given right of free will to accept or reject it.

Yes, I do have the right to believe or not. If the proclamation of unbelief (and obstinately remaining therein) however is punished it becomes force. By definition I cannot truly become an ex-Catholic. While I can leave a club if I come to disagree with one of their principles, I cannot leave the Catholic Church according to their theology. Having said that I can either submit myself to the teaching, be it by believing or by trying to believe while being obedient or I can face the punishment for my disobedience as I cannot leave. If it were different I wouldn’t be getting the idea that there is a force behind this. I am not saying that everybody is right and I am certainly not saying that I am right all the time. I am just human and that does make me fallible.
The question however, whether the Church forces a belief upon its members or in the case of trouble with the same enforces obedience, is not clear at all to me. Believe, be obedient or be punished. Those are the options as far as I can see it.

Now, if you live in a dictatorial society you are forced to accept that statement if you wish to continue living without any trouble. It is a matter of physical life and death.

However if you are member of a Church that enforces a belief it is a matter of spiritual life and death. The fact that the Church does not have the authority to execute a physical punishment on its disobedient members does not make the teaching without force. The threat behind this is that of hellfire. The punishment makes a Catholic face either submission or exclusion from the life within the Church until submission or death.

Excommunication in any Church ( Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant ) is a form of punishment for those who deride the teachings and cause others to put their salvation in jeopardy. If the excommunicant recants and shows remorse and atones for the error(s), then the excommunication is lifted.

I was not debating the fact that there is excommunication and that it is widely practiced. This fact however comes to show that the Catholic Church which acts as a closed society uses force to make the obstinate recant, repent and submit to their authority.
Excommunication is biblical and we all know that. It is a measure of keeping the faith of all the members of the congregation in line with the teaching. As a such it is a kind of force that is placed upon the members.

 

[Matorin]

Quick question, can’t many of the arguments you are using about force and the difference between freely choosing and forcing because of consequences, couldn’t those be used in relation to us and God and hell?

 

[SteveVH]

Quick question, can’t many of the arguments you are using about force and the difference between freely choosing and forcing because of consequences, couldn’t those be used in relation to us and God and hell?

Exactly! The Church is not imposing punishment of hell. It is just stating a fact. If you know the truth and reject that truth, then you are rejecting God and you will suffer the consequences of that decision. If what the Church teaches is not true, then you have nothing to worry about. Seems like a fairly important question.

 

[Javl]

To All:

Whether or not you believe it, rejecting the teachings of the Catholic Church is the same as rejecting the teachings of Jesus Christ. Rejecting His teachings is the same as rejecting Him.

Jesus established a Church ( Matt 16:18 ) to propagate His teachings to the world ( Mk 16:15). In establishing this Church he gave it ( through the Apostles ) His power and authority to act and teach in His name (Matt 16:19). He promised to be with the Church forever and that the Holy Spirit will guide it. This Church ( the Catholic Church ) has been true and faithful to Jesus’ commission. All that the Church teaches is what Jesus and the Apostles have taught and all is supported by scripture and Holy Tradition ( Jn 21:25 ). It cannot be proven otherwise.

Although God has given each one of us free will to chose, accept, or reject, we are obligated to accept and believe in the teachings of the Church, through the Magisterium ( the teaching arm of the Church ) and not by individuals, at the peril of losing our salvation ( NO, God does not condemn us to Hell. We do it to ourselves ). This obligation is also a discipline which many of us lack. We are more concerned with our own interests and beliefs ( Cafeteria Christians ) than what has been taught by Jesus.

Many “Christians” pick and chose whatever makes them feel good and is easy to work at and obey. They then reject and toss out whatever is hard to obey and necessary for the relief of the soul and certain salvation. ( They say " I don’t belive this", or “It’s difficult to accept”, etc. ). Narrow and difficult it is to traverse the road to heaven while the road to perdition ( hell ) is wide, smooth, and even. How many of us have helped pave this road with what we perceive to be our “good” intentions".

Examine your consciences. Pray to the Holy Spirit for knowledge and Wisdom. He willl lead you to all truth if you open up to Him completely. I know, for He has helped me.

God Bless All. Shalom haMeshiach

Len ( Javl )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Janet1983]

Whether or not you believe it, rejecting the teachings of the Catholic Church is the same as rejecting the teachings of Jesus Christ. Rejecting His teachings is the same as rejecting Him.

I disagree.
I might reject the Catholic Church, but I do not reject Jesus Christ.
He is my Lord and my God. He is my Saviour, my Deliverer, my Teacher, my Light, my Life, my Creator, my Master and my King.

He is the one who saved me from who I was and from what I deserve. I don’t have anything apart from Him. Everything I have I owe to Him. He bought me with His blood and He paid the price. All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I disagree.
I might reject the Catholic Church, but I do not reject Jesus Christ.
He is my Lord and my God. He is my Saviour, my Deliverer, my Teacher, my Light, my Life, my Creator, my Master and my King.

He is the one who saved me from who I was and from what I deserve. I don’t have anything apart from Him. Everything I have I owe to Him. He bought me with His blood and He paid the price. All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me.

This is also Catholic belief… Minus the rejecting the Church/rejecting Christ part of course. He saves us from ourselves in order to make us more ourselves. This is Catholic teaching.

Listen to what Jesus:
18 "If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.
19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.

This has been fulfilled since the time of Christ for the Catholic Church. Even today, there is much hatred for the Church among its own brethren in the Christian religion and outside of it. This is why we make rejecting the Church synonymous to rejecting Christ.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of the the Gospel writer, St. John) says, “Wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.” He died somewhere between 98 and 117. He did not say, Wherever the Catholic Church is, there is Christ Jesus. The Church follows Him because it is His Mystical Body. He died not even 100 years AFTER Christ’s Ascension into heaven. They did not even have a Bible and they had already considered the Church Catholic. Meaning “Universal” as in the universality of the Truth. The Church contains Truth as well as sinners. I will say again that Catholics might be some of the worst people in this world but the Catholic saints are the best human beings who ever lived. That is because they looked past the words and letters of doctrine and lived them as Christ Himself had commanded it to be by commanding us to love God, ourselves and others.

 

[Javl]

I disagree.
I might reject the Catholic Church, but I do not reject Jesus Christ.
He is my Lord and my God. He is my Saviour, my Deliverer, my Teacher, my Light, my Life, my Creator, my Master and my King.

He is the one who saved me from who I was and from what I deserve. I don’t have anything apart from Him. Everything I have I owe to Him. He bought me with His blood and He paid the price. All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me.

It is your right to reject whom and what you please and believe whom and what you please, and I am glad that you cling to Him. But, I’m sorry to say that by rejecting the Catholic Church’s teaching you are rejecting Jesus’ teaching and therefore rejecting Him, no matter what you say.

Jesus founded a Church for a reason, and I tried to explain that reason ( maybe not explicit or clear enough ). He gave a mission to that Church and the power and authority to carry out and complete that mission. He also said that He would be with it always, and will have the Holy Spirit guide it. This means that the Church will always be there and it will also be free from error. If all this is not so, then why did He found a Church? What was His reason for doing so?

That the Church has survived unchanged in its teachings for 2000 years and still teaches what Jesus and the Apostles taught is proof that Jesus is always there. The Church, being a part of Jesus, will not and can not teach anything contrary, or other than whatever He has taught. Jesus is infallible. Since the Church IS Jesus, it is infallible and cannot teach error.

Len

PAX DOMINI :signof cross:

Shalom Aleichem

 

[StTommyMore]

I disagree.
I might reject the Catholic Church, but I do not reject Jesus Christ.
He is my Lord and my God. He is my Saviour, my Deliverer, my Teacher, my Light, my Life, my Creator, my Master and my King.

He is the one who saved me from who I was and from what I deserve. I don’t have anything apart from Him. Everything I have I owe to Him. He bought me with His blood and He paid the price. All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me.

“He who rejects you rejects me…” You cannot reject the CHurch without implicitly rejecting Christ

 

[Janet1983]

It is your right to reject whom and what you please and believe whom and what you please, and I am glad that you cling to Him. But, I’m sorry to say that by rejecting the Catholic Church’s teaching you are rejecting Jesus’ teaching and therefore rejecting Him, no matter what you say.

I respect that you believe that. Let me just remark, that you are essentially telling me that I am not a Christian for rejecting the Catholic Church. That is what you are saying as you claim that I am rejecting Christ.

Jesus founded a Church for a reason, and I tried to explain that reason ( maybe not explicit or clear enough ). He gave a mission to that Church and the power and authority to carry out and complete that mission. He also said that He would be with it always, and will have the Holy Spirit guide it. This means that the Church will always be there and it will also be free from error. If all this is not so, then why did He found a Church? What was His reason for doing so?

Yes, the Lord founded a Church, but I do not believe that this Church is synonymous with the Catholic Church. I know what the Catholic Church teaches. I have been Catholic for most of my life and I have heard and seen what the Catholic Church teaches about itself.

Jesus is infallible. Since the Church IS Jesus, it is infallible and cannot teach error.

Jesus is infallible, but I do not believe that the Catholic Church is and I do not believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus. My Lord is not the Catholic Church and I will not submit to the Catholic Church, though I do submit to Jesus Christ.

“He who rejects you rejects me…” You cannot reject the CHurch without implicitly rejecting Christ

I can indeed reject the Catholic Church without rejecting Jesus Christ.
I used to be Catholic and I am aware of the claims of the Catholic Church. I do however bind myself to none other than Jesus Christ who is my Lord… To Him I submit, but I will not submit to the guiding of either the pope nor the magisterium.

 

[StTommyMore]

I respect that you believe that. Let me just remark, that you are essentially telling me that I am not a Christian for rejecting the Catholic Church. That is what you are saying as you claim that I am rejecting Christ.

Yes, the Lord founded a Church, but I do not believe that this Church is synonymous with the Catholic Church. I know what the Catholic Church teaches. I have been Catholic for most of my life and I have heard and seen what the Catholic Church teaches about itself.

Jesus is infallible, but I do not believe that the Catholic Church is and I do not believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus. My Lord is not the Catholic Church and I will not submit to the Catholic Church, though I do submit to Jesus Christ.

I can indeed reject the Catholic Church without rejecting Jesus Christ.
I used to be Catholic and I am aware of the claims of the Catholic Church. I do however bind myself to none other than Jesus Christ who is my Lord… To Him I submit, but I will not submit to the guiding of either the pope nor the magisterium.

So you in the same breath, claim that you cling to Jesus Christ, yet say that He was lying. How very odd.

 

[Janet1983]

So you in the same breath, claim that you cling to Jesus Christ, yet say that He was lying. How very odd.

I never said that He was lying. Why would I claim that?
I am still being accused of not being a Christian as I see.

 

[StTommyMore]

I never said that He was lying. Why would I claim that?
I am still being accused of not being a Christian as I see.

“He who rejects you rejects me” This was addressed to the Apostles, the first Bishops. You reject the Bishops and by extension Jesus. By saying that submission to the Church, that is, the authority set up by Christ, you reject Christ himself. By saying submission to the Church is irrelevant, you make Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, a liar.

 

[Rightlydivide]

“He who rejects you rejects me” This was addressed to the Apostles, the first Bishops. You reject the Bishops and by extension Jesus. By saying that submission to the Church, that is, the authority set up by Christ, you reject Christ himself. By saying submission to the Church is irrelevant, you make Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, a liar.

But she does not believe the correct interpretation of either scripture or history is that your church is the authority set up by Christ. So of course she is not rejecting Christ. The difficulty here is not that she thinks Christ is a liar, the difficulty is the polemics which brand anyone who disagrees with someones view of scripture or the church as reflecting on Christ.
It also essentially makes calm discourse difficult.
I reject this kind of argument in any form. Many of my fellow fundamentalists, for example those from schools like Hyles-Anderson, Pensecola Bible Institute, etc engage in these as well.
We are certainly not immune to it as well by any stretch.
RD

 

[Rightlydivide]

There is hardly any difference in saying that someone is not a Christian for rejecting the Catholic Church as when some Christians claim that Catholics are not Christians.
Its the same kind of thinking dressed with a simple reversal of words.

But, I’m sorry to say that by rejecting the Catholic Church’s teaching you are rejecting Jesus’ teaching and therefore rejecting Him, no matter what you say.

 

[Janet1983]

“He who rejects you rejects me” This was addressed to the Apostles, the first Bishops. You reject the Bishops and by extension Jesus. By saying that submission to the Church, that is, the authority set up by Christ, you reject Christ himself. By saying submission to the Church is irrelevant, you make Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, a liar.

I do not believe that I make Jesus Christ a liar by not submitting to the authority of men who claim to be the successors of the apostles led by a man who claims to be the successor of Peter. I do not submit to this earthly authority that claims to be the representation of God on this earth. Christians can be found within and without the Catholic Church. Why would you continue to tell me that I am denouncing my God and thereby calling me a non-Christian.

I have been called an apostate before for leaving the Catholic faith after having been fully introduced into it by the means of education and sacrament. I do however not consider myself an apostate as this requires a turning from the faith in Jesus Christ. I dare to follow Jesus and I believe that He is God. I believe in Him and I will serve Him with my life as much as I do now and maybe even more in the future. I strive to grow in faith and to grow closer to Him.

I want everything I do to be for His glory and His glory alone. I don’t live for myself anymore. When I gave my life to the Lord I died to myself.
It is not about me. Nothing is about me anymore. It’s all about Him!
What do I have and what can I do? Nothing! I can do nothing without Him!
What do I deserve? Nothing but eternal torments. Nothing more.

I was a vile God-hating criminal. I broke every law God has ever given. I don’t deserve anything but hell. I sinned against an infinitely holy God. I insulted the most glorious being in the entire universe and I didn’t do it just once. I did it over and over again. I didn’t do anything but sinning! I didn’t do anything else! I deserve hell and I deserve only that. If God would execute perfect justice there would be no moderation, no mercy.
But he saved me! I don’t have anything apart from Him! He saved me! He bought me with His blood. He paid the price and He saved me!

All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
What else can there be said? He saved me! He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me!
Everything I have I owe to Him, so why should I hold anything back? He saved me and that is more than I could ever have expected or earned.
I give everything. Everything to God I freely give.

What makes you think that I do not believe Him? What makes you believe that I do not follow Him? What makes you think that you have the truth while I do not? What makes you think that your faith in Jesus Christ is superior to mine?
Is it the fact that I used to be Catholic and have been called a heretic by many? How do you know they are right?

I am not telling you that you are wrong in your faith, but I am asking you: What makes you think that you are in a position to judge me?

 

[StTommyMore]

I do not believe that I make Jesus Christ a liar by not submitting to the authority of men who claim to be the successors of the apostles led by a man who claims to be the successor of Peter. I do not submit to this earthly authority that claims to be the representation of God on this earth. Christians can be found within and without the Catholic Church. Why would you continue to tell me that I am denouncing my God and thereby calling me a non-Christian.

I have been called an apostate before for leaving the Catholic faith after having been fully introduced into it by the means of education and sacrament. I do however not consider myself an apostate as this requires a turning from the faith in Jesus Christ. I dare to follow Jesus and I believe that He is God. I believe in Him and I will serve Him with my life as much as I do now and maybe even more in the future. I strive to grow in faith and to grow closer to Him.

I want everything I do to be for His glory and His glory alone. I don’t live for myself anymore. When I gave my life to the Lord I died to myself.
It is not about me. Nothing is about me anymore. It’s all about Him!
What do I have and what can I do? Nothing! I can do nothing without Him!
What do I deserve? Nothing but eternal torments. Nothing more.

I was a vile God-hating criminal. I broke every law God has ever given. I don’t deserve anything but hell. I sinned against an infinitely holy God. I insulted the most glorious being in the entire universe and I didn’t do it just once. I did it over and over again. I didn’t do anything but sinning! I didn’t do anything else! I deserve hell and I deserve only that. If God would execute perfect justice there would be no moderation, no mercy.
But he saved me! I don’t have anything apart from Him! He saved me! He bought me with His blood. He paid the price and He saved me!

All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
What else can there be said? He saved me! He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me!
Everything I have I owe to Him, so why should I hold anything back? He saved me and that is more than I could ever have expected or earned.
I give everything. Everything to God I freely give.

What makes you think that I do not believe Him? What makes you believe that I do not follow Him? What makes you think that you have the truth while I do not? What makes you think that your faith in Jesus Christ is superior to mine?
Is it the fact that I used to be Catholic and have been called a heretic by many? How do you know they are right?

I am not telling you that you are wrong in your faith, but I am asking you: What makes you think that you are in a position to judge me?

Ah yes, the Devil’s favorite phrase “Don’t judge.” I speak the Truth. Compare your faith with that of the Fathers. How often does your community celebrate Eucharist? Do you believe it is the very Body and Blood of Christ? Do you believe is Sola Scriptura? WHat about Sola Fide? If your worship and beliefs do not jibe with the Fathers, then there is a problem.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I do not believe that I make Jesus Christ a liar by not submitting to the authority of men who claim to be the successors of the apostles led by a man who claims to be the successor of Peter. I do not submit to this earthly authority that claims to be the representation of God on this earth. Christians can be found within and without the Catholic Church. Why would you continue to tell me that I am denouncing my God and thereby calling me a non-Christian.

I apologize on their behalf that they make you feel like this. But we have plenty of sources from Sacred Tradition (oral and spoken) that lead to evidence that makes a claim that those who do not believe the Church do not believe in Him. In any case, nobody should make you feel that way whether or not you are. On the other hand, you also are ever so subtly telling us what we believe by saying things like, “…submitting to the authority of men…” We have the authority of Christ Himself. That is our belief. Only from an outsider does it look like the authority of men. And being an ex-Catholic hardly counts at saying you know our beliefs. It is actually even worse.

Perhaps you might want to answer me on this next question. This is much much worse than our statements against you. Answer for all your Protestant brothers and sisters.

Why is it that websites, like www.christiananswers.com, exclude Catholics? An entire part of Christianity who are in fact Christians is not even considered Christian by its own brethren. I do not want you to say why YOU would or would not do this.

Read John 15:18-19. This is being fulfilled by our own brethren.

Anyway, it is not an authority of men. It is a divine authority given by God Himself. And the claims that you make seem false are very justifiable and justified (of course, with a little alteration to your claim that would conform with what we actually believe); otherwise, we would not believe it.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

The difficulty here is not that she thinks Christ is a liar, the difficulty is the polemics which brand anyone who disagrees with someones view of scripture or the church as reflecting on Christ.

Any atheist making a claim against you will automatically have you assume that they do not have faith-illumined reasoned; therefore, they cannot see the whole picture and fail to see any relevant part of the picture. The theist automatically assumes this and rightly so because faith-illumined reason leads to a form of Truth that surpasses fact and figure. Truth cannot contradict Truth.

This is the case for the Church. The Church is the only one (to my knowledge anyway; correct me if I am wrong) that believes in being His Mystical Body. We are actually the only ones believe IN His Mystical Body. This is exactly why we think that rejection of the Church is rejection of Christ because it IS Christ. St. Paul somewhere in the Bible talks about His Body as the Church. Hopefully, my Catholic brethren who reads this knows where this is. I know it is there but I personally have no clue where it is. And this is also why I do not believe that Catholicism is just another sect of Christianity. I believe it IS Christianity. I have many reasons. And although it is a religion in every respect, I believe that it transcends even the idea of religion. Just like I believe that we are humans but by the grace of God, can transcend humanity (saints are experts at and on this). A difficulty of understanding something should not lead one to doubt the Church. It just means it is difficult to understand. I have plenty of difficulty understanding the Resurrection and rightly so, but that should not leave me to doubt it.

We see Him more than a Man in a book. I am not saying that you do not believe that same thing. We see Him more than the Man in spoken tradition. We see Him as the Word of God, who was with God and is God. He was spoken at the Creation. I can go on and on but I think you understand the point. Somebody (some body) has to have the Truth and we have reasons for believing that to be the Church, His Mystical Body

 

[Javl]

I respect that you believe that. Let me just remark, that you are essentially telling me that I am not a Christian for rejecting the Catholic Church. That is what you are saying as you claim that I am rejecting Christ.

You may be a follower of Jesus, but you are still rejecting His teachings. By rejecting His teachings, you reject Him.

Yes, the Lord founded a Church, but I do not believe that this Church is synonymous with the Catholic Church. I know what the Catholic Church teaches. I have been Catholic for most of my life and I have heard and seen what the Catholic Church teaches about itself.

By making that sort of statement you really do not know what the Church teaches. Can you give me some proof that the Catholic Church is NOT the Church founded by Jesus?

Jesus is infallible, but I do not believe that the Catholic Church is and I do not believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus. My Lord is not the Catholic Church and I will not submit to the Catholic Church, though I do submit to Jesus Christ.

You either minunderstand or misinterpret why Jesus founded the Church. The Church was founded by Jesus and He is its head and we believers are its body. The Church is Jesus.

I can indeed reject the Catholic Church without rejecting Jesus Christ.
I used to be Catholic and I am aware of the claims of the Catholic Church. I do however bind myself to none other than Jesus Christ who is my Lord… To Him I submit, but I will not submit to the guiding of either the pope nor the magisterium.

Again I say, you reject the Church, you reject Jesus. The tenets, doctrines, and dogmas,
taught by the Catholic Church are same as taught by Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, Jude, and the rest of the Apostles. All are supported by Holy Scripture ( the Bible ). All the claims of the Catholic Church are also supported by Holy Scripture. If you are able to, please give me proof that what I have said is not so.

God Bless. Shalom haMeshisch.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem