A question on kneeling vs. standing for Communion in GIRM

[jantoniello]

Peace to all.

I was reading the General Instruction of the Roman Missal earlier for the first time in ages and noticed something I have never noticed before.

160: “The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.” source]

The last line there is what threw me through a loop. What are the reasons for this norm?

note: I am not trying to delve into the discussion of which is more proper or more universally normal. I am merely asking why the GIRM has this last line in there.

 

[GloriousOrder]

I’ve always been somewhat confused by that language. It seems to state a New Law without any reason given, then two sentences later says “explain the reason for this new law”.

 

[laszlo]

160: "The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm." source]

The last line there is what threw me through a loop. What are the reasons for this norm?

To receive communion kneeling needs minimum 4 yard space across, (six people in row) and even so the average time to serve one communicant is at least 20% more (the time walking back) than the receiving standing. To receive under both species doubles the time and space requirement, and also to receive the Holy blood kneeling creates dangerous risk of spill.

To receive kneeling can be norm only if only the Body of Chirst is received , and the Church is wide; or only a few people is going to communion. Do not forget that the Mass had to be finished in 70 minutes otherwise there will be a mess in the parking lot.

The resolution is to provide separate Masses for those who wish to receive kneeling, and on those Masses provide only communion under the species of bread. If the TLM Mass is available in a 20 mile radius, that seems o be sufficient resolution.

 

[puzzleannie]

the reason for the new law is that when they ripped up the churches, moved tabernacles, made choirs share space with the priest and altar, smashed statues and “renovated” the also removed the communion rails and kneelers. They figured out the old and less agile were taking to long to kneel to receive and then struggle to their feet, so they made a new rule, okay, let them receive standing. and while we’re at it, since they no longer kneel and their mouths are no longer at more or less the same height, it is going to require a contortionist to communicate on the tongue so let’s do everything we can to force them to receive in the hand.

if anybody who lived through it like me has a different history I should like to hear it.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Peace to all.

I was reading the General Instruction of the Roman Missal earlier for the first time in ages and noticed something I have never noticed before.

160: "The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm." source]

The last line there is what threw me through a loop. What are the reasons for this norm?

note: I am not trying to delve into the discussion of which is more proper or more universally normal. I am merely asking why the GIRM has this last line in there.

My best guess, based on my own research & study is that each council of Bishops was to choose what would be the norm for the particular area that they had jurisdicition over. In the US, the USCCB made standing the norm. ***They had to make a choice, and that is the one they made. ***

Now, one could argue all day long as to what is better, more reverent, etc…
but it does not change the fact, that for sake of uniformity, the Bishops chose standing.

One reason that I can think of that this decision was made was because standing is easier for most people. Many, young & old alike, could have issues with kneeling, and if more than half of the church can’t kneel, why make it mandatory?

To me it is just a common sense, pastoral necessity.

That said, I also believe that reasonable accomodations should be made for those who wish to receive kneeling, when it is possible & practical.

 

[puzzleannie]

regardless, these are the norms so this is what we do
if the bishops tell me to receive while hopping on one foot I will do it because the one spiritual lesson of any benefit I have learned in a long and rebellious life is that obedience trumps all else.

“if you love Me you will keep My commands.” since HE set the bishops over us, I obey. I don’t have to like it, but I do have to keep my comments to myself–except here, where we are I hope anonymous.

 

[Phemie]

The people I’ve seen receive kneeling and/or on the tongue in my parish are also the ones who never receive from the chalice.

 

[PaulinVA]

the reason for the new law is that when they ripped up the churches, moved tabernacles, made choirs share space with the priest and altar, smashed statues and “renovated” the also removed the communion rails and kneelers. They figured out the old and less agile were taking to long to kneel to receive and then struggle to their feet, so they made a new rule, okay, let them receive standing. and while we’re at it, since they no longer kneel and their mouths are no longer at more or less the same height, it is going to require a contortionist to communicate on the tongue so let’s do everything we can to force them to receive in the hand.

if anybody who lived through it like me has a different history I should like to hear it.

Well, I’m not sure I can remember with such a flair for the color commentary…

The altar rail ended up coming down in a rush to break down the barriers between the priest and the people. That facilitated EMHC, because there is no way that EMHC would have been allowed to distribute Holy Communion behind the railing.

I remember when the first EMHCs were instituted at my parish. They were told it was for speed, to speed things up. Wow.

With the railing down, there really is no easy way for everyone to receive kneeling - Communion on the Tongue works best with the Minister above the communicant, placing the Host down on the communicant’s tongue. The communicant has been there already for a minute or two, so there is no rush.

That’s the biggest impediment to COTT - bring back the altar railing and get rid of the EMHCs, and everything would be fine. It’s more reverent, too.

 

[Joannm]

The people I’ve seen receive kneeling and/or on the tongue in my parish are also the ones who never receive from the chalice.

We had some visitors at church on SUnday and two of the women received from the chalice kneeling. I thought this was odd and kind of awkward. First, these women obviously were very traditional for they also wore veils. I could understand kneeling to receive the host but would a real traditionalist receive from the chalice and from an EMHC. Also there is a greater chance of spilling the Precious Blood since the EMHC had to bend over to give the women the chalice.

 

[Phemie]

We had some visitors at church on SUnday and two of the women received from the chalice kneeling. I thought this was odd and kind of awkward. First, these women obviously were very traditional for they also wore veils. I could understand kneeling to receive the host but would a real traditionalist receive from the chalice and from an EMHC. Also there is a greater chance of spilling the Precious Blood since the EMHC had to bend over to give the women the chalice.

I just tried this. I’m 4’10" and DH is 5’7". If I kneel to receive and raise my hands to receive it, he doesn’t have to bend to give me the chalice.

 

[Little_One0307]

I just tried this. I’m 4’10" and DH is 5’7". If I kneel to receive and raise my hands to receive it, he doesn’t have to bend to give me the chalice.

I know with me when I attended parish churches, I talked with the priest beforehand and so kneeling to receive the chalice or the Host was not a problem. He just let the other Eucharistic Ministers know about it. I do remember him saying that he appreciated my talking to him about it before it happened.

I know now attending where I do know, the priest knows that I kneel for both and so we don’t have a nightmare mess and nothing by the grace of God gets spilled or dropped onto the floor.

God bless.

 

[Zacdecat]

To receive communion kneeling needs minimum 4 yard space across, (six people in row) and even so the average time to serve one communicant is at least 20% more (the time walking back) than the receiving standing. To receive under both species doubles the time and space requirement, and also to receive the Holy blood kneeling creates dangerous risk of spill.

To receive kneeling can be norm only if only the Body of Chirst is received , and the Church is wide; or only a few people is going to communion. Do not forget that the Mass had to be finished in 70 minutes otherwise there will be a mess in the parking lot.

The resolution is to provide separate Masses for those who wish to receive kneeling, and on those Masses provide only communion under the species of bread. If the TLM Mass is available in a 20 mile radius, that seems o be sufficient resolution.

Whilst I am certain you are quite sincere…I think the response made is ridiculous. It is not an issue of timing when people kneel for communion. It is extremely orderly, more so than my memories of the Novus Ordo Mass.People queue up from the pews, starting at the front after the choir if there is one, or a group of religious. A priest and altar boy can process rapidly and with dignity to the Host. Another priest is an option to assist if time is an issue (usually where the priest is needed for Mass elsewhere).

Where I lived previously, the priest had broken his hip which made his ambulation more difficult so the congregation went 2 by 2, again it did not impact on the overall time.

Parking lot issues !!! Pleeeeeeeeease, this is the Eucharist…parking surely is subordinate to the reception of Communion.I would think having parking issues would be a great consolation to the parish. I have had to park streets away to attend Mass!!!

Finally, the Tridentine Mass does NOT offer the option of receiving Communion from the Chalice to the congregation. In fact, the offering of the Mass does NOT obligate the priest in giving communion to the people. I was very surprised to discover this, and it has occured at several Masses I have attended, one where the priest was very ill and the congregation was very grateful to have Mass at all. The second time was at a funeral Mass where the priest was unsure of the state of most of the congregation and rather than risk Communion to fallen away or non Catholics it was his decision.

 

[laszlo]

the reason for the new law is that when they ripped up the churches, moved tabernacles, made choirs share space with the priest and altar, smashed statues and “renovated” the also removed the communion rails and kneelers. They figured out the old and less agile were taking to long to kneel to receive and then struggle to their feet, so they made a new rule, okay, let them receive standing. and while we’re at it, since they no longer kneel and their mouths are no longer at more or less the same height, it is going to require a contortionist to communicate on the tongue so let’s do everything we can to force them to receive in the hand.

if anybody who lived through it like me has a different history I should like to hear it.

It is me. There was no force.

The process and to receive standing is the only possible resolution if

• the Church is full
• almost everyone receives communion
• and receives under both species.

In the last three years (now the envy is about to take it from me) I had the privilege to attend ‘old fashioned’ masses in both forms: communion kneeling and to tongue. But the Church is small around 100-120 communicants in a mass, no receiving under the species of vine. Two priest could manage it, but in the few occasions when only one priest was distributing the communing always there was mess in the parking lot.

As for the history what I saw, in Hungary where I lived until 1981 only about a third of the people received communion, only under the species of bread, and consequently kneeling at the bars. When I came to Houston everyone was receiving standing to tongue and still only one species. The bars were there, but the communion was process. I felt nothing wrong, this was the way in the first 1500 years of the Church (may be the first few centuries they received sitting) Here in the Chicago subs saw first the communion to hand (1985) and the 2 species for laity came only in the nineties.

The process was not abrupt forced change, and the majority of the people like it.

Once again. The force is not God’s method. The resolution would be to keep islands for those who like the traditional, as it is about to born.

 

[Cat]

Whilst I am certain you are quite sincere…I think the response made is ridiculous. It is not an issue of timing when people kneel for communion. It is extremely orderly, more so than my memories of the Novus Ordo Mass.People queue up from the pews, starting at the front after the choir if there is one, or a group of religious. A priest and altar boy can process rapidly and with dignity to the Host. Another priest is an option to assist if time is an issue (usually where the priest is needed for Mass elsewhere).

Where I lived previously, the priest had broken his hip which made his ambulation more difficult so the congregation went 2 by 2, again it did not impact on the overall time.

Parking lot issues !!! Pleeeeeeeeease, this is the Eucharist…parking surely is subordinate to the reception of Communion.I would think having parking issues would be a great consolation to the parish. I have had to park streets away to attend Mass!!!

Finally, the Tridentine Mass does NOT offer the option of receiving Communion from the Chalice to the congregation. In fact, the offering of the Mass does NOT obligate the priest in giving communion to the people. I was very surprised to discover this, and it has occured at several Masses I have attended, one where the priest was very ill and the congregation was very grateful to have Mass at all. The second time was at a funeral Mass where the priest was unsure of the state of most of the congregation and rather than risk Communion to fallen away or non Catholics it was his decision.

Please don’t be so glib about parking lot issues. Jesus was a practical man. Do you remember when he preached to the crowd of 5000, He made sure that the people had something to eat. There are lots of other examples of Jesus making sure that the physical needs of humans were met. He didn’t just dismiss the physical world.

In many parishes, there is no option for street parking due to physical constraints or even due to city ordinances designed to keep residential areas free of traffic congestion. And for the elderly or those with many tiny children or for the disabled, street parking isn’t an option at all.

Our parish has five Masses on Sunday morning (two more on Saturday evening, and one on Sunday evening), and around 7000 people attend.

Our church campus is on one of the busiest intersections in the city, and it is wild trying to maneuver into the church parking lot and then maneuver out again. What complicates things is that there is a retirement home and nursing home on the campus (affiliated with the diocese), and parishioners are not supposed to drive through this area to take a “shortcut”.

There are also two shopping malls on the other street corners, and thus a lot of traffic from these places.

And on the fourth street corner, there is another huge church!

It really is imperative that the Masses be finished within 60 minutes, give or take five minutes, so that people can get into and out of the church safely.

I think people make too big a deal out of this issue of kneeling for Holy Communion, and try to make it into a problem when it really isn’t a problem at all.

We have several families that kneel to receive Holy Communion. They wait until last, and then there is no problem at all, and I’m guessing that waiting until last is good for helping them to develop the virtue of humility. The priests, and many of the parishioners, know these families, so there is no surprise when they kneel. (Usually these families do not receive from EMHCs). They usually attend the same Mass time from week to week, so we’re all used to them. It’s not a problem, really.

As for anyone who is new who kneels, it generally isn’t a problem at all. In our parish, the priests have asked that we make some kind of gesture of reverence, usually a small bow, before receiving the Host. So the procession is not speedy, and since everyone stops to make that bow, we’re expecting a slight delay and so no one collides when someone kneels.

I think that people who kneel have gotten used to a slight turning around and somehow signaling to the person behind them, that they intend to kneel for Communion. I’ve seen it–it’s very subtle, but it’s enough of a warning so that the person behind the kneeling person doesn’t trip. If I were a kneeler, I would verbally tell the person behind me in advance, just to make sure that the person didn’t trip over me.

What I wonder is, how do the kneeling people feel when they find that they are no longer able to kneel on a floor? I’ve seen some parishes in which the elderly and disabled who wish to receive kneeling will sit in the very front row, and then the priest will come to them to distribute Holy Communion. I like this, and wish that it were done in our parish.

I am one who, due to osteoarthritis of the knees, cannot kneel without something to hold onto (front of a pew). I could never kneel on a floor without assistance, and it would be very hard, if not impossible, for me to stand up again and start walking. At work, if I drop something and it rolls under a desk, I have to ask someone to bend down and get it for me (or I can use some kind of tool to fish it out). On damp days, it’s even worse. I’m only 54, and started having problems with this back in my late 30s. I am very grateful that we aren’t required to kneel!

Is it hard for kneelers to accept it when they can no longer kneel, and have to receive the Holy Communion standing like all the rest of the Catholics? I should think it would be heartbreaking.

 

[Phemie]

It is me. There was no force.

The process and to receive standing is the only possible resolution if

• the Church is full
• almost everyone receives communion
• and receives under both species. .

Funny that. I attended an Anglican Communion service and everyone went to receive, everyone knelt at the rail and everyone received under both species. Yes, I know, no one received Communion but the action was the same and didn’t take very long

 

[puzzleannie]

the railing.

I remember when the first EMHCs were instituted at my parish. They were told it was for speed, to speed things up. Wow.

That’s the biggest impediment to COTT - bring back the altar railing and get rid of the EMHCs, and everything would be fine. It’s more reverent, too.

thank you, your history is both more complete and more charitable than mine and I agree in toto, and for the record, communion time could be quick indeed in the old rite, the nuns could get through huge first communion classes in double time. but everyone had time and silence to meditate no body shoving a hymn book in your face, or the abomination of forcing you to sing in the procession before and after receiving.

 

[Phemie]

What I wonder is, how do the kneeling people feel when they find that they are no longer able to kneel on a floor? I’ve seen some parishes in which the elderly and disabled who wish to receive kneeling will sit in the very front row, and then the priest will come to them to distribute Holy Communion. I like this, and wish that it were done in our parish.

Is it hard for kneelers to accept it when they can no longer kneel, and have to receive the Holy Communion standing like all the rest of the Catholics? I should think it would be heartbreaking.

I have to say that when the altar rail was there I never noticed anyone unable to kneel – unless they were in a wheelchair.

Note that I’m not a kneeler, but it always surprises me when people start to make excuses for why people shouldn’t kneel. In my parish we don’t have a parking problem and there is only one Mass on Sunday. Speed is not an issue except for those who want to rush to Tim Hortons for coffee after Mass. Yet I’ve heard complaints about the few people who opt to kneel, usually quoting the risk of tripping over them. My response is usually, “Hey, you know they kneel so if you’re in line behind them don’t take those two step forward when it’s their turn and you won’t risk tripping.”

 

[PaulinVA]

thank you, your history is both more complete and more charitable than mine and I agree in toto, and for the record, communion time could be quick indeed in the old rite, the nuns could get through huge first communion classes in double time. but everyone had time and silence to meditate no body shoving a hymn book in your face, or the abomination of forcing you to sing in the procession before and after receiving.

I was just teasing about the commentary.

You are right - standing actually is not faster, from what I can remember. And, it is much more reverent with the railing. We have about 10 EMHC at the largely-attended Masses, and when they are done with the lines on the sides they start distributing at the front. Towards the end of Communion, the people in the main lines in the middle of the Church are practically running to keep up. It’s very disconcerting.

Add to that the second collection basket being stuffed in your face while the priest is purifying the vessels and the EMHC taking the ciboria with the undistributed Eucharist to the chapel, it’s not a very reverent time.

 

[laszlo]

Funny that. I attended an Anglican Communion service and everyone went to receive, everyone knelt at the rail and everyone received under both species. Yes, I know, no one received Communion but the action was the same and didn’t take very long

Very interesting experience. In the church where I felt home everyone knelt, and an communion (only one species) took 5 seconds. The total time is optimum with two priest distributing communion, if only one this doubles the time, three increases somehow. (12 people can kneel in one row) (100 people, 2 priest = 4 minutes)

In my territorial Church with the process one communion is a bit above 2 seconds, and up to 8 distribution ‘stations’ may be set (usual 4) This way the communion for 500 people is 4 minutes (with 4 stations) .

What are your numbers? How many people how many Eucharistic ministers, total time?

 

[Phemie]

Very interesting experience. In the church where I felt home everyone knelt, and an communion (only one species) took 5 seconds. The total time is optimum with two priest distributing communion, if only one this doubles the time, three increases somehow. (12 people can kneel in one row) (100 people, 2 priest = 4 minutes)

In my territorial Church with the process one communion is a bit above 2 seconds, and up to 8 distribution ‘stations’ may be set (usual 4) This way the communion for 500 people is 4 minutes (with 4 stations) .

What are your numbers? How many people how many Eucharistic ministers, total time?

Our numbers now are at most 150 (from a parish of about 1500). The priest distributes the Hosts and we usually have an EMHC on each side with a chalice. At less attended Masses we only have one minister of the Cup. Time, 5 - 7 minutes? I’ve never timed it. I hardly think that when Rome allowed EMHCs to avoid Communion being unduly prolonged that they had 10-15 minutes in mind.

In fact, Redemptionis Sacramentum says "[158.] Indeed, the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion may administer Communion only when the Priest and Deacon are lacking, when the Priest is prevented by weakness or advanced age or some other genuine reason, or when the number of faithful coming to Communion is so great that the very celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged.[259] This, however, is to be understood in such a way that a brief prolongation, considering the circumstances and culture of the place, is not at all a sufficient reason.