A sad observation

[Rose74]

LDS membership numbers are very misleading. They keep anyone ever baptized on their books until the 110th birthday. The baptized converts have a terrible retention rate. Depending on area, it could be as low as ten percent.

 

[JackieMom]

If you don’t introduce YOURSELF to anyone in 20 years, SHAME ON YOU! Get into ministries, join the choir, be an usher, join the women’s or men’s club, teach RCIA, teach catechism, work in the nursery. Work on the parish carnival committee. Sheesh folks, you gotta take some responsibility for yourself!

It’s not that easy in every parish. Ours has interviews for most volunteer groups and don’t accept everyone. I attempted to volunteer myself for a ministry that makes food for funeral receptions for poor families, but they were “not seeking additional help at this time.” So then, I volunteered for the “Marthas” ministry - cleaning and polishing pews, refurbishing damaged hymnals, and doing minor repairs within the church space. But they told me I could not bring children under 13, even if they sat quietly with an iPad or whatever. The wait list to be an usher or EMHC is over three years long. The Right to Life ministry does not want volunteers who are actively raising small children… And to top it off, last year my parents called the parish office and left a message with Father’s secretary because they wanted to invite him to dinner. They were quite embarrassed to be called back by the secretary and told that Father does not accept dinner invitations!

We have 11 perm. Deacons and their wives basically run the show. If you’re not in with the in crowd, you’re out!

I’ve just reconciled myself to anonymity for the time being. I really don’t mind that much and assume God will lead me toward community fellowship when He sees fit.

 

[The_Bucket]

Yeah. That actually happened to us. 7 years of weekly attendance (and donations), and when I went on extended bedrest for preterm labor no one was the wiser. My mom put my name on the “sick and in distress” list, and it was in the bulletin for a month. Not one person from the parish called. There are organizations one can join, Bible studies, etc. but you will never be known by name if you’re “just” a parishioner.

Well that’s part and parcel of society as a whole. I don’t know that evangelical churches are so much better at fostering a tight-knit community. Forgive my political commentary here, but as the government grows, the bonds of family, locality and religious community deteriorate.

This is a natural reaction by the way. The more we turn over to “others” to take care of, the less we care about helping out neighbor. They’re not going to starve. They’ve got the government, we say.

I’m not advocating for massive cuts in programs that help the poor. I’m saying that when we abdicate responsibility for our neighbors’ welfare to the state we become more insular and egocentric as a society. When we leave our parents to fend for themselves on Social Security, family bonds fray. When we think the most important thing we can do for others is to leave them alone and let them do whatever they want lest we be judged too, religious community bonds snap.

Think Catholicism is suffering here? Look at mainline Protestantism. It’s completely moribund. Even in Europe it’s closer to death’s door than the Church.

Things like social security and welfare and Medicaid have laudable goals. We don’t want people with no social network to fall through the cracks. But we have allowed the safety net not to merely catch those who have no one else, but to become the first line of defense. We fail to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, give comfort to the imprisoned and then we wonder why the Church is suffering attrition? It’s because we as a whole have ceded responsibility to perform the corporal works of mercy over to the government.

Yes, Catholic Charities does a lot. The Knights of Columbus are great. My parish has a soup kitchen that is open three times a week. That’s wonderful. But the Church has lost its role as being the only place you could turn when you needed a meal, a place to stay or medical care. With that gone, we’ve kind of stumbled around and lost our footing in how we can preach the Gospel to all at all times.

 

[MrsHappy]

They do not have as many temptations from the devil…like the devil is ALWAYS tempting catholics to sin and ultimatley leave the catholic church. Because it’s the truth. Why would he put as much emphasis on mormons? They are already outside the faith.

 

[pentecostbaby]

Mormons foster an amazing community spirit. The LDS friends I have are some of the most giving, open people I’ve ever met. I always tease that if I wasn’t Catholic I’d be LDS because of the way they live their faith.
For example, women who get pregnant all get a church baby shower. People bring food if you’re ill or homebound. There’s a scout troop. It’s amazing.
As Catholics, we ought to reach out more in these ways. I find it hard to believe that JackieMoms’ church doesn’t have a Moms Group or playdate set up. You do truly have to put yourself out there and keep doing it.

 

[hamandcheese]

There is a good lecture about Mormonism on the institute of Catholic cultures web page. Its part of a series titled “Kingdom of the Cults: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons & Seventh Day Adventists.” One of the speakers grew up a Mormon married a Catholic woman and was converted to Catholicism through the intersession of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It sounds like a lot of the people they recruit into their religion are made up of Catholics who never learned their faith like the ones your talking about. All of my family, (parents, cousins, aunts ,uncles, everybody), went to Catholic school with the exception of me and my brother and we are just about the only two who are still Catholic. Why is the old bishop sheen saying true ‘If you want your children to fight for their faith, send them to public school. If you want them to lose their faith, send them to Catholic school.’"

 

[stlcatholic86]

I would not overlook the fact that one could attend - join even - a Catholic parish for 20 years, and no one would even greet you by name. Say what you will about the LDS, they do have community. I don’t think out attrition rate would be so high if people felt truly fed, felt that they truly belonged.

I really think this hits it on the head. I think all members could do a better job of saying hi to other people, even if its just a commitment to make contact with one other person every Mass it would really make it much more impactful. I agree though say what you will about the LDS, but they sure do outreach better, I guarantee you someone knows when you don’t attend their services.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Because the men lead.

If Catholic men led, too, our religion would thrive.

I’m not being sexist. I’m talking about proper Christian male leadership, not the sinful kind of male dominance over women.

 

[BridgetMay]

I do admire the sense of community in the Mormon church. We have four small Catholic parishes in my city, but there are next to NO opportunities for community. There are no Bible studies, no women’s groups, nothing. One has a small youth group, but I’m just too old for that now. Additionally, theres a current of racial division in our churches.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It’s not that easy in every parish. Ours has interviews for most volunteer groups and don’t accept everyone. I attempted to volunteer myself for a ministry that makes food for funeral receptions for poor families, but they were “not seeking additional help at this time.” So then, I volunteered for the “Marthas” ministry - cleaning and polishing pews, refurbishing damaged hymnals, and doing minor repairs within the church space. But they told me I could not bring children under 13, even if they sat quietly with an iPad or whatever. The wait list to be an usher or EMHC is over three years long. The Right to Life ministry does not want volunteers who are actively raising small children… And to top it off, last year my parents called the parish office and left a message with Father’s secretary because they wanted to invite him to dinner. They were quite embarrassed to be called back by the secretary and told that Father does not accept dinner invitations!

We have 11 perm. Deacons and their wives basically run the show. If you’re not in with the in crowd, you’re out!

I’ve just reconciled myself to anonymity for the time being. I really don’t mind that much and assume God will lead me toward community fellowship when He sees fit.

Wow, I think I’d have to look for another parish! I know that happens in any church or really, almost any setting, unfortunately. Concentration of power into just a few hands…not good. Seriously, to be told that Fr. doesn’t accept dinner invitations?? I’d have to go straight to him after Mass and ask him directly!

Your church is the exception, I hope. I know I could walk into our parish and be welcomed on any number of ministries. No matter how many volunteer, more are always welcomed.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yeah. That actually happened to us. 7 years of weekly attendance (and donations), and when I went on extended bedrest for preterm labor no one was the wiser. My mom put my name on the “sick and in distress” list, and it was in the bulletin for a month. Not one person from the parish called. There are organizations one can join, Bible studies, etc. but you will never be known by name if you’re “just” a parishioner.

According to my sister, who was 13 at the time, the fact that no one from our parish helped us after our mother died was the main factor that caused our father not to return. Mom had given so much help and probably donations to the church and it seemed to Dad and my sister that no one even noticed or cared.

 

[JackieMom]

Wow, I think I’d have to look for another parish! I know that happens in any church or really, almost any setting, unfortunately. Concentration of power into just a few hands…not good. Seriously, to be told that Fr. doesn’t accept dinner invitations?? I’d have to go straight to him after Mass and ask him directly!

Your church is the exception, I hope. I know I could walk into our parish and be welcomed on any number of ministries. No matter how many volunteer, more are always welcomed.

Right? They were told he couldn’t accept one invitation because then he’d have to accept them all! My church probably is an exception because it’s a huge, huge upper middle class parish with two priests, but 11 deacons and 10 deacons’ wives…

Catholic parishes that have thousands of regular parishioners are just not going to be a place where “everybody knows your name.” A lot of Protestant churches only have a few hundred members, if that, so it’s easier to get that community vibe going. Mormon churches are broken up into wards, where you have have to attend services at the same time every week with the same people. Then, after the “sacrament meeting” - things are broken down even further as the members are separated by age and gender for other meetings.

 

[Honus]

It is somewhat of an apples/oranges comparison.

• People have mentioned the mormon sense of community. It is hard to compare a Catholic parish that could have thousands of members to a mormon ward with 300-400 people.
• Mormons can keep their wards small because of the forced 10% tithing. It is the only way they can keep building new meeting houses and temples.
• Mormons stick to geographic boundaries for their ward attendance. This practically forces them to know who all the mormons are down the street.
• If a Catholic wants to get involved they VOLUNTEER. Mormons don’t have a choice. Their ‘Bishop’ calls them to fill a role. It is highly discouraged to say no.
• Mormons are good at converting the uneducated. However, they’re not so good at retaining members.
• It is very easy to become mormon. With only a handful of sessions with the missionaries you can become one. The bar is much higher to become Catholic.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe that most of them are good people, but I wouldn’t get too down when making these comparisons between the faiths.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Where did we go wrong? Why is our attrition so high? Out of a class of 200, there are maybe 2-3 students still actively practicing. How did the Mormons, for all intents and purposes a cult, get this so right? Their religion is also patriarchal, and has a lot of lifetyle limits - it’s certainly not an easy breezy faith to follow. It’s a big commitment to be a Mormon. What can we learn from them? I’m scared for my kids. Terrified, actually.

My knowledge of Mormonism is quite basic but I have a theory.

It is a young religion. Early Christianity was on fire, it spread all over the world quickly. People died for their faith.

The numbers of LDS are small. I believe that contributes to a strong sense of identity and community. I see the same thing with a friend who belongs to a non-denominational church started by some guy 15 years ago. They are in close contact with other communities of the same type and origin. They all seem very strong in their faith.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Right? They were told he couldn’t accept one invitation because then he’d have to accept them all! My church probably is an exception because it’s a huge, huge upper middle class parish with two priests, but 11 deacons and 10 deacons’ wives…

Catholic parishes that have thousands of regular parishioners are just not going to be a place where “everybody knows your name.” A lot of Protestant churches only have a few hundred members, if that, so it’s easier to get that community vibe going. Mormon churches are broken up into wards, where you have have to attend services at the same time every week with the same people. Then, after the “sacrament meeting” - things are broken down even further as the members are separated by age and gender for other meetings.

Oh, the horror! He might have several dinner invites every week! Imagine the stress! LOL how silly.

Frankly I don’t want everyone to know my name. I could make friends with one or two groups, and find friends within those groups. When you have thousands of people at each Mass, you have to be selective.

One of my friends wants me to go for Eucharistic Minister. Gulp. I’d have to gussy up a lot more.

 

[EasterJoy]

I grew up in a town that has a significant LDS presence, and I still live here. I had many LDS friends growing up in local schools and in my neighborhood, mostly because my parents trusted their family values and conservative households. I am still in touch with many of these people on Facebook and in person.

I also have many Catholic friends that I met when I switched to Catholic schools and through our confirmation program.

This last weekend was the LDS “general conference” and I noticed that every single one of my LDS friends from childhood was posting their excitement and joy about it. All are still actively practicing their faith and raising Mormon familes. They are excited about their religion and proud of it. In contrast, I can’t think of many people from my Catholic high school that still practice even a nominal Catholicism. They are athiests, agnostics or non-denoms. Dozens of them posted the pro-gay meme last week, and I often see them supporting causes that oppose Catholic teaching. These are kids that went to 13 years of Catholic school (in the 80s and 90s) I even notice them mocking Catholicism on FB. It’s so sad.

Where did we go wrong? Why is our attrition so high? Out of a class of 200, there are maybe 2-3 students still actively practicing. How did the Mormons, for all intents and purposes a cult, get this so right? Their religion is also patriarchal, and has a lot of lifetyle limits - it’s certainly not an easy breezy faith to follow. It’s a big commitment to be a Mormon. What can we learn from them? I’m scared for my kids. Terrified, actually.

Hmmm. I have a lot of friends from my Catholic high school who are still Catholic. Not all, but most. I think it has partly to do with whether your parents had a real connection to the Church, or just showed up on Sundays and threw an envelope in. The ones whose parents were in altar society or Knights of Columbus were more likely to stay Catholic. The ones who were on the sports teams full of fellow athletes who wanted to go to Mass on game days tended to keep practicing. Out of families where some dropped out and some didn’t, the drop-outs were very often among those who did not have a deep connection to the Mass or those who dated non-Catholics and married someone with a church he or she was more attached to than the Catholic was attached to his/hers.

How many in your Catholic high school weren’t Catholic in the first place? Was it more of a college preparatory school than a Catholic school? Were the parents more concerned about whether their children were going to get into a good college than whether the faith soaked the school? Were your religion classes both meaningful and rigorous, classes every bit as challenging as all the other classes that everyone had to take? Did the student body go to Mass, and what were the Masses like? What were the priests like that you had on the faculty? Were the lay teachers orthodox?

Some parents mistakenly put their children in Catholic schools and think they will make Catholic friends and live the Catholic faith at school. That does not always happen. Sometimes the schools are more worried about SAT scores than the faith. Sometimes, the schools get screams from the majority of parents when they aren’t more worried about college prospects than eternal salvation!! Sometimes the teachers are, well, heretics and skeptics who think that being a scholar and being a scoffer are the same thing. There are many things like that that can make a Catholic high school into a place that actively undermines the chances that its students will remain Catholic at all, let alone orthodox Catholics. Let us say that this is not something that happens at BYU. Speaking of BYU, perhaps the scoffing and sliding came about because of the colleges chosen after graduation. That is what I would suspect is behind the shockingly high rate of defection that you’re describing. That doesn’t happen by mere inertia. That kind of defection rate needs to have had some help somewhere.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

I read a study (can’t find the link now…anyone know?) that showed a strong correlation between the father practicing a faith and the children following it. Of course this doesn’t apply to every family, but the general conclusion was that if the father practiced his faith seriously, then the children were more likely to take it seriously and follow it as well into adulthood. However, if only the mother practiced it, then children were more likely to fall away. This is what I was mentioning about men leading earlier. Thoughts?

 

[JackieMom]

How many in your Catholic high school weren’t Catholic in the first place?
Most were Catholic. I’d say 90%
Was it more of a college preparatory school than a Catholic school?
I mean, they wanted students to further their education for sure - but the academics were average. Parents looking for their kids to go to an ivy league would have chosen another school.
Were the parents more concerned about whether their children were going to get into a good college than whether the faith soaked the school?
Between the two, probably more were concerned about college.
Were your religion classes both meaningful and rigorous, classes every bit as challenging as all the other classes that everyone had to take?
No. They were an easy “A” or “B” if you dis the work.
Did the student body go to Mass, and what were the Masses like?
Once a month. They were fine.
What were the priests like that you had on the faculty?
This was the late 90s… There were no religious on the faculty, except for that our principal was a brother who was WAY out of his league professionally. But I haven’t heard of a priest on faculty in ages - my kids go to a very orthodox school now and it is 100% lay faculty.
Were the lay teachers orthodox?
Many were very active in the faith. We’d see them leaving daily Mass next door on their way to work and such. A few were not Catholic but all supported the school.

.

Ultimately I just think my generation is highly areligious, and don’t feel any obligation to maintain the things their parents taught them. Plus, it is true that many families were cafeteria-style in their practice.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I read a study (can’t find the link now…anyone know?) that showed a strong correlation between the father practicing a faith and the children following it. Of course this doesn’t apply to every family, but the general conclusion was that if the father practiced his faith seriously, then the children were more likely to take it seriously and follow it as well into adulthood. However, if only the mother practiced it, then children were more likely to fall away. This is what I was mentioning about men leading earlier. Thoughts?

I’ve heard of this also and I agree with it. There are exceptions but by and large most of the more devout families have both parents going to church together and the father is involved.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I think it is a hopeful observation that your Morman friends are still practicing their faith. Catholics leaving the faith after years of Catholic education speaks to serious problems in Catholic education.

Were the lay teachers orthodox?
Many were very active in the faith. We’d see them leaving daily Mass next door on their way to work and such. A few were not Catholic but all supported the school.

Note: EasterJoy asked if the teachers were orthodox, *not *if they active.

I know some people from my high school who are very active in the Catholic faith but who are not orthodox. The most unorthodox of them attended Catholic colleges. They work actively to undermine Church teachings, supporting things such women priests, planned parenthood, homosexual unions and a variety of other things that are* directly in contrast* to Church moral teachings. Sadly, they* think* they are good Catholics who follow their (malformed) consciences. We grew up surrounded by Catholic “culture”, but did not learn how to be orthodox.

Those who do leave are often following other non-orthodox or misguided ideas that they learned in Catholic schools. I left the Church for a while, honestly partly following some of the misguided notions I had picked up on in the “spirit” of my education. I came back ready to learn what the Church really teaches, rather than just what I wanted it to teach.

Don’t get discouraged when people leave–they may not stay away forever and they might even be growing in their faith while they are away in ways that they wouldn’t have done if they had never left. When I came back to the Catholic church, I was ready to learn some of the things I never learned in Catholic schools.

Many former Catholics never really learned their Catholic faith and may have even learned things contrary to the faith. When some leave they don’t really understand what they are leaving, and if they embrace things that don’t look very Catholic, it might be something they picked up on somewhere along the line in their “Catholic” school.

I have seen some serious problems in Catholic education. I’m always sad whenever I hear of Catholic schools closing, but honestly, some of them did a terrible job of teaching Catholicism.