A Scientific Study in Radical Islam

[IvanKaramozov]

If I were a Muslim I wouldn’t worry too much about it. In 200 years the Catholic Church will have ceased to exist, and will be little more than a historical memory. Mormonism and Judaism might exist, but the numbers will be tiny. Islam shows no signs of slowing down, and will probably be competing with whatever the fundamentalist protestants evolve into.

I don’t know if it can be said it will disapear, I find it hard to imigain that Zoroaustroism can still exist in Iran but Catholicism be utterly gone, certianly it looks like Islam will seriously overtake it.

Do you ever wonder what a Westernized Islam would look like?

Yes, do you have any (name removed by moderator)ut?

I could totally see a secularish, pro-scientific Islam taking hold in North America. Science and rational thought meshes together much more easily with Qur’an than it does with the Bible.

That’s a very interesting observation, how so?

 

[IvanKaramozov]

stop raising straw men. whoever said that politics=government?

No one, however you charged Islam was a political system, I made a sarcastic remark and then you said.

“Remember how Islam involves a system of government?”

I said your question was ambiguious and then said Politics=/=Government as you first made a charge about Politics and then Government without seeming to make a serious distinction.

What I was after more than anything was for you to make your question more clear.

 

[AgnosTheist]

There is an absolute aversion to fact and scientific based reasoning rather than emotional retoric.

The poll says 33% of americans believe that mainstream islam encourages violence against non-muslims. The Pontifical Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies confirms mass scale support for persecutions against heretics and apostates. Even Amy here agree with death of apostates, on certain circumstances.

That means the 33% are correct and the other 67% are either ignorant or as you said, in a state of “absolute aversion to fact”.

Which one are you?

 

[LaMar]

That’s a very interesting observation, how so?

A strict reading of Islam requires only that an adherent say the shahadah oath. Throughout history, Muslims have been forbidden to accuse other Muslims of apostasy without concrete evidence of crimes.

A Muslim like Irshad Manji can repeat the shahadah without necessarily taking anything literally, or denouncing science. Christians (and Mormons too) can’t do that. The true believers are not constrained from putting people to death in Christianity and Mormonism simply because their neighbor doesn’t define God in the same way he does.

This was the whole reason behind the dark ages. Europeans were killing one another, living in caves, dying of plagues and eating their children for supper in the middle ages, while Muslims (and the Jews and Christians who had the good fortune to live under the rule of Muslim leaders) were studying in universities, arguing back and forth, studying astronomy, chemistry, medicine, philosophy and just basically keeping civilization alive while the rest of the world went to hell.

People like me, who studied in Western universities, often wonder how scholasticism and the rennaisance erupted, seemingly out of nowhere. When you study Islam, you get the big picture. The church had to quit encouraging barbarism only because it was about to be absorbed into the greater caliphate.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t know what specifically makes a poll scientific, it is a study conducted by a very respectiable agency.

However beyond that I don’t see what that has to do with what you quoted. There is an absolute aversion to fact and scientific based reasoning rather than emotional retoric.

The only scientific polls I’m aware of attract lightning.

 

[IvanKaramozov]

The only scientific polls I’m aware of attract lightning.

I reread that about three times before getting it

Very nice

 

[IvanKaramozov]

The poll says 33% of americans believe that mainstream islam encourages violence against non-muslims. The Pontifical Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies confirms mass scale support for persecutions against heretics and apostates. Even Amy here agree with death of apostates, on certain circumstances.

I don’t think that’s what most people think of when asked that question.

Generally that question conveys something along the lines of what those petty thugs did to Mr. Burg

That means the 33% are correct and the other 67% are either ignorant or as you said, in a state of “absolute aversion to fact”.

No, that means 67% beleive Islam encourages aghinst non-Muslims.

There is no way to know HOW those Americans arrived at those conclusions. There is nothing wrong with criticising Islam, but a rational, calm, fair discussion about the problems is a far cry from Booklover asserting all sorts of hysterical, exargeated propaganda, as she often does.

Which one are you?

Ignorant, but honest about it(I hope)

 

[planten]

When cornered, she won’t reply!

thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm

Vickie

**Agnos Theist was right. The majority of the Muslims (who are aken to Jews of the time of jesus) do believe in killing the apostates. That is utterly wrong practice. I have read the article written in ReligionofPeace site shown by Booklover above. That is a rotten article written by some ignorant to prove that it is not allowed for a Muslim to change his religion. That is absolutely wrong. That is not Islam at all.

Infact, Islam allows all religions the liberty to change their faith as and when they like. The only condition may the time of war. It may not be allowed in the time when War is going on. Otherwise there is no restriction to believe what one likes.

Please remember that there are many ignorant Mullas amongst the Muslims who do believe such bad things which are not supported by the quran. The Hadith is under the Quran. No Hadith can be believed unless it is supported by the Quran. No Hadith can be right which is teaching something repugnant to the verses of the Quran.

The real teaching of the Quran is “There is no compulsion in religion.” That means in any religion, Islam, Judaism, christianity, Hinduism etc. There is no Compulsion to choose one’s religion. That is the order of the Quran (Verse 2:255)

It is a shame on the muslims that they have reversed all the good teachings that were given to them. Some are teaching Jihaad, i.e…fight for the sake of religion, even fight to spread Islam. It is definitely wrong. Amy or any body. Please know that in Islam, there is no punishment for apostacy.

But it is being taught like that in many Muslim countries, almost all muslims are believing like that. That there is death penulty for apostacy. The Muslims are believing that it is alright to come into Islam. But it is not allowed to go out of Islam. That is all wrong and anti-islamic, not supported by the Quran.

If some will say that it is supported by Hadith then that is also wrong. Such a serious matter will not rest on the Hadith alone. It is a rule that all matters concerning Haraam and Halaal, and all matters concerning life and death cannot be left to the Hadith alone. The proof for them must come from the Quran.

Since the matter of apostacy is being decided by death by some Hadith alone. That is not allowed. The matter of death must be proved by the Quran. So, I apologise from the christian friends that there is such a terrible misunderstanding and bad practice amongst the Muslims about apostacy. But it is not Islam at all.**

 

[ralphinal]

Plantain,
I think that this is the first time that I have agreed with every post on a thread by you. Perhaps this is a good issue for everyone to find common ground.

Ivan,
Thanks for a great post.

 

[ralphinal]

I do not think that the ability of those who lead these Muslim Nations to manipulate the populace should be ignored. Overall, things a put into whatever context needed to maintain controll, and if a common enemy is needed, so be it. You see the same in bin laden and the like. They can shift things into and out of religious context at will

Take the Isreal/Palestine issue. Overall, the presence of Isreal does not effect the majority of Muslims. However, when the Palestinians were displaced, they fled into neighboring nations. These people were, as a rule, poor and uneducated. The Saudis et al, saw them not so much as fellow Muslims who were now homeless but as strains on the economy. For a while in Kuwait, it was not against the law if a Kuwaiti citizen ran over a Palestinian with a car! Now, these nations fraimed the issue as one of Islam vs. Judaism, not my economy vs yours. That way, the rank and file Muslim would side with the government.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This was the whole reason behind the dark ages. Europeans were killing one another, living in caves, dying of plagues and eating their children for supper in the middle ages, while Muslims (and the Jews and Christians who had the good fortune to live under the rule of Muslim leaders) were studying in universities, arguing back and forth, studying astronomy, chemistry, medicine, philosophy and just basically keeping civilization alive while the rest of the world went to hell.

People like me, who studied in Western universities, often wonder how scholasticism and the rennaisance erupted, seemingly out of nowhere. When you study Islam, you get the big picture. The church had to quit encouraging barbarism only because it was about to be absorbed into the greater caliphate.

Not sure what you consider the “dark ages”, but I do think you might benefit from studying history without such notions as “dark ages” = “medieval period”. And, I might add that I do not go into Mormon blogs and make accusations about the Mormon church “encouraging barbarism”, and would consider it quite ill-mannered if I did. You are a guest here.