A Scriptural Death Penalty Case

[godisgood77]

This doesn’t respond to the question: since the woman received no punishment at all why shouldn’t we interpret that to mean it is punishment itself rather than just capital punishment that should be eliminated?

She was punished… she was publicly humiliated and her trial was held among her community… the judge gave her mercy and instructed her to go forth and sin no more.

 

[EugeneCharles]

Merciful to whom? He made no distinction between sinners.

There’s no one else that GOD would be merciful except us, humans.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

There’s no one else that GOD would be merciful except us, humans.

I was talking about God and humans…

 

[EugeneCharles]

I was talking about humans…

The previous verses said:

“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who are abusive to you.” – Luke 6:27-28

“But love your enemies and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil people .”
– Luke 6:35

The Lord is referring to our enemies and all who did bad things to us.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

The previous verses said:

“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who are abusive to you.” – Luke 6:27-28

“But love your enemies and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil people .”
– Luke 6:35

The Lord is referring to our enemies and all who did bad things to us.

And, we should heed His words.

 

[godisgood77]

Question: do you believe that the death penalty is intrinsically evil?

I believe the DP is never a ‘good’ thing… may be necessary in the most extreme cases, but a necessary evil

 

[Lunam_Meam]

The Bible is very clear that if somebody intentionally kills another person, they must be put to death. It’s in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. There’s no way to read around it.

That doesn’t mean mercy can’t, or shouldn’t be shown. For example, Cain intentionally killed Abel, and God chose mercy by sparing his life.

 

[Ender]

She was punished… she was publicly humiliated and her trial was held among her community

In which case once a trial is held and guilt established, that should be sufficient punishment - public humiliation. Is that what you are recommending? Is that how you interpret this passage?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

God hadn’t given the laws on murder yet. Those weren’t revealed until Noah. And either way, it doesn’t matter when God chooses to make an exception. He made the law, so he is not bound by it. We, however, are bound by his laws.

God was also merciful to King David, Moses, etc, and He commands us to be merciful too (Lk. 6:36). One who loves their neighbor has fulfilled the law (Rom. 13:8)

 

[Ender]

God was also merciful to King David, Moses, etc, and He commands us to be merciful too.

Mercy is appropriate is some cases, but not in all. If mercy (and I think what is actually meant is leniency) was always applicable God would never have called for capital punishment in the first place. Given that he commanded Moses to apply it, and that it was the first direction he gave to Noah, it makes no sense to suggest he meant for it not to be used.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Mercy is appropriate in some cases, but not in all. If mercy (and I think what is actually meant is leniency) was always applicable God would never have called for capital punishment in the first place. Given that he commanded Moses to apply it, and that it was the first direction he gave to Noah, it makes no sense to suggest he meant for it not to be used.

I never said I was against the death penalty, but Jesus taught man in word and deed about charity, which includes mercy, because His death was to pay the debt of sinners of the past, present, and future. Additionally, man is called to repentance, holiness, and perfection in this life, but one is robbed of these opportunities when they are killed, whether according to the law, or against the law.

We should follow Jesus’s example by choosing mercy in a death penalty case, even when its justice to kill. Patient mercy gives souls time to recover and fortify themselves. Not every soul recovers instantaneously from its wounds. Some do so by successive stages, which are often slow, and subject to relapse.

 

[godisgood77]

In which case once a trial is held and guilt established, that should be sufficient punishment - public humiliation. Is that what you are recommending? Is that how you interpret this passage?

I’ll defer to Jesus in this case… I recommend doing what he did…my interpretation is that Jesus was right.

Jesus’ new covenant turned a lot of norms upside down.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

You don’t seem to understand. God can violate his own laws because he created them. We, however, are bound by them. It’s the same with the sacraments. God is not bound by his sacraments, but we are.

God commands us to be merciful too (Lk. 6:36). To love one’s neighbor is the second greatest commandment (Mat. 22:39), and one who loves their neighbor has fulfilled the law (Rom. 13:8)

 

[EugeneCharles]

David_The_Byzantine:

The Bible is very clear that if somebody intentionally kills another person, they must be put to death. It’s in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. There’s no way to read around it.

That doesn’t mean mercy can’t, or shouldn’t be shown. For example, Cain intentionally killed Abel, and God chose mercy by sparing his life.

This is a very efficient point.

 

[BT3241]

You got executed for anything back then it was the law they were brutal times we don’t execute for stealing a horse today.
Jesus specifically choose to speak of eye for an eye on the sermon on the mount but not many people listened.

 

[Ender]

Jesus’s death paid the debt of sinners of the past, present, and future.

If that was true then we should not be punished for our misdeeds. I should be free to do anything at all without worrying about being held accountable by either God or man. Obviously no one believes this, and this is surely not what the church teaches.

We incur a debt by our sins, and that debt was not prepaid by Jesus’s death.

Additionally, man is called to repentance, holiness, and perfection in this life, but one is robbed of these opportunities when they are killed, whether according to the law, or against the law.

Again, this is not what the church teaches. Rather, this is what she believes:

Paradoxically, those who oppose capital punishment on these grounds are assuming the state has a sort of totalitarian capacity which it does not in fact possess, a power to frustrate the whole of one’s existence. Since a death imposed by one man on another can remove neither the latter’s moral goal nor his human worth, it is still more incapable of preventing the operation of God’s justice, which sits in judgment on all our adjudications. (Romano Amerio, theological consultant, Vatican II)

We should follow Jesus’s example by choosing mercy in a death penalty case, even when its justice to kill.

This assumes that if mercy is shown once it should be shown in every case, and this is not so. How about addressing some of the arguments presented and not simply repeating your opinion as if those arguments were never presented? How can God command the death penalty for some crimes and at the same time expect it never to be used because mercy demands otherwise?

Jesus’ new covenant turned a lot of norms upside down.

This would have us believe that God was wrong, but Jesus corrected his errors. Either that or morality changed so that what was moral BC became immoral AD.

 

[Ender]

God can violate his own laws because he created them

If God is truth then he would no more violate his commands than he would accept our violations of them. Allowing him to act with disregard to “his own laws” would mean that his laws were arbitrary, and make him one with the Pharisees, about whom Jesus said: “Do as they say, but not as they do.”

Jesus specifically choose to speak of eye for an eye on the sermon on the mount but not many people listened.

He was talking of an individual’s responsibility; he was not addressing how governments ought to behave.

when Our Lord says: “You have heard that it hath been said of old, an eye for an eye, etc.,” He does not condemn that law, nor forbid a magistrate to inflict the poena talionis, but He condemns the perverse interpretation of the Pharisees, and forbids in private citizens the desire for and the seeking of vengeance. For God promulgates the holy law that the magistrate may punish the wicked by the poena talionis…And that Our Lord was speaking to private citizens is clear from what follows. For Our Lord speaks thus: “But I say to you not to resist evil, but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, etc.” (St. Bellarmine, De Laicis)

 

[godisgood77]

This would have us believe that God was wrong, but Jesus corrected his errors. Either that or morality changed so that what was moral BC became immoral AD.

Not necessarily… I would say that our human interpretation and understanding of God’s will may have been wrong. Given that Jesus is God and that he spoke, in the flesh, directly to the people, I would say he helped us to better understand what God wants for us on the issue of capital punishment. The relatively recent development of doctrine on this issue reflects that and better aligns our rules to that of God’s will.

 

[Ender]

Not necessarily… I would say that our human interpretation and understanding of God’s will may have been wrong. Given that Jesus is God and that he spoke, in the flesh, directly to the people, I would say he helped us to better understand what God wants for us on the issue of capital punishment. The relatively recent development of doctrine on this issue reflects that and better aligns our rules to that of God’s will.

Nowhere did Jesus speak out condemning capital punishment. On the contrary, he used several examples of rulers executing people for their misdeeds.

(Mk 7:*-10) "You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’

(Lk 19:26-27) “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

(Lk 20:15-16) “What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”

I would say that our human interpretation and understanding of God’s will may have been wrong…The relatively recent development of doctrine on this issue reflects that and better aligns our rules to that of God’s will.

This requires us to believe that the church failed for 2000 years to understand God’s will. All of the Fathers, Doctors, popes, and councils were in error and that it was only in 2018 that someone finally figured out the truth. Is that really the position you want to take?

 

[LawyerForLife]

But God commands us to have laws punishing murderers with death. He gives the same law to Noah, Moses, and Paul. Yes, we are to love our neighbor… that doesn’t change what God has commanded regarding criminal proceedings.

In the United States something like 2 percent of murderers are sentenced to death. Are we defying the will of God unless we increase the death penalty fifty-fold?