A secular case against gay marriage

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Stephen168 said:
The question is: Do we promote what is harmful to the common good?
Is human extinction good?
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The application of that logic is nonsensical.
  1. There is no way to show that the reality of homosexuality (a condition occurring naturally in a minority of the population) is harmful to society in and of itself.
  2. There is no possibility of human extinction. To pursue this argument is ludicrous.
Consider this threat to the common good:

When carbon dioxide is present in the air at concentrations of near 600 parts per million, you will notice that the air begins to feel stuffy, thick and slightly difficult to breathe. At this level, which is only 250 parts per million above your normal tolerance, serious symptoms and permanent damage are unlikely to occur.
As the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air approaches 1,000 parts per million, some classic symptoms of CO2 poisoning begin to occur. These include difficulty breathing and shortness of breath, as well as increased heart rate, headaches, hyperventilation, fatigue, sweating and possible impairment of hearing. PesticideInfo.org recommends immediate removal to fresh air if these symptoms manifest, and medical attention if the symptoms persist after you have ended your exposure to the harmful levels of CO2
When levels reach 15,000 to 30,000 parts per million, severe symptoms begin to manifest within an hour or two of exposure. Angry Red Planet lists dizziness, nausea, shaking, visual hallucination, nausea and vomiting as symptoms that the CO2 level has become dangerously high. At this level of exposure, you may lose consciousness or die from asphyxiation. As with lower levels, PesticideInfo.org** recommends immediate removal from the CO2 source **and medical attention
Human beings exhale Carbon Dioxide, therefore all human breathing is opposed to the common good. To counteract this threat the following steps might be considered: exhaling must be banned. Failing that, human beings must be removed from the vicinity of any other human beings for their own safety. Or perhaps all human beings must be made to wear catalytic converters.
 
fix said:
How is it just to encourage vice?
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The determination of whether it is vice is precisely what is being considered in this string. It is not a conclusion that has been accepted by the participants of this discussion. You are free to try to prove that conclusion on the basis of the evidence you may present.
 
Stephen168 said:
I don’t have to show it will happen to the extreme to use the extreme to show the thing being promoted is good or not good. I just have to show the extreme to be factual and not emotional.
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But it is not factual. It is a creation of fancy, fiction.
 
Monkey1976 said:
You’re not correct. My opinion is that - from a purely legal point of view - marriage is about one thing: Children. I made no judgments on persons or individuals.

Not their individual value to society - the value of their “marriage” to society. If two, or three, or twenty men all want to claim their relationship is a “marriage”, no law will stop them from calling it as such. What I want to know is, exactly what does legal recognition of their “marriage” gain society that can only be accomplished by doing so?

You seem to have chosen to ignore my question: In what tangible, long-term (beyond their own lifetime) ways could the average homosexual couple contribute to the future of a society that could not be accomplished save for the redefinition of marriage?
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Since there is discussion of what same sex couples seek to gain from a relationship recognized as “Marriage,” here’s a partial list. You will see some benefits that relate to children (These couples can raise children).
According to the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), there are 1,138[1] statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. These rights and responsibilities apply to only male-female couples, from the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), defining marriage as between a man and a woman.
Tax Benefits
• Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
• Creating a “family partnership” under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
• Inheriting a share of your spouse’s estate.
• Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
• Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
• Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse – that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.
• The law provides certain automatic rights to a person’s spouse regardless of whether or not a will exists.
Government Benefits
• Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
• Receiving veterans’ and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
• Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
• Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse’s employer.
• Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
• Receiving wages, workers’ compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
• Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
• Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
• Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
• Married couples in elderly care facilities are generally not separated unless one spouse’s health dictates hospitalization or special care.
• The dissolution of a marriage requires a determination of property distribution, award of child custody and support and spousal support. Absent divorce, there is no uniform system for sorting out the ending of a relationship
Death Benefits
• Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
• Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
• Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
• Applying for joint foster care rights.
• Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
• Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
• Living in neighborhoods zoned for “families only.”
• Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
• Receiving family rates for health, homeowners’, auto, and other types of insurance.
• Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
• Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
• Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
• Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
• Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
• Receiving crime victims’ recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
• Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
• Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
•The dissolution of a marriage requires a determination of property distribution, award of child custody and support and spousal support. Absent divorce, there is no uniform system for sorting out the ending of a relationship
 
RevDon said:
The determination of whether it is vice is precisely what is being considered in this string. It is not a conclusion that has been accepted by the participants of this discussion. You are free to try to prove that conclusion on the basis of the evidence you may present.
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We have thousands of years of history, common sense, long faith traditions, and sodomy was illegal in many states up until a few years ago. I really do not think we need any complicated proofs to show that homosexual acts are evil.
 
Stephen168 said:
In the USA, we promote farming. It appears to be for the common good.
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But if everyone was a policeman then there would be nobody to promote farming any more and there would be no farmers to promote it to. Your argument tells me that since being a policeman, if universally adopted, would lead to the extinction of the human race, then anyone who wants to be a policeman should be discouraged.

Now let us apply your argument to celibate Catholic priests, monks and nuns. Again, something that should not be encouraged, “If everyone was celibate then…” Looks like all those tax concessions to Catholic religious institutions should be rescinded. We wouldn’t want to encourage something that might result in the extinction of the human race, would we? Withdraw the tax concessions now.

Your argument is obviously ridiculous.

rossum
 
Monkey1976 said:
Is it “just” that I, simply because I live in Missouri, cannot claim tax benefits reserved to Alaska residents?
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It would be unjust if you tried to move to Alaska so you could share equally in the benefits offered to Alaska residents and were told that you could not do so.
 
rossum said:
But if everyone was a policeman then there would be nobody to promote farming any more and there would be no farmers to promote it to. Your argument tells me that since being a policeman, if universally adopted, would lead to the extinction of the human race, then anyone who wants to be a policeman should be discouraged.

Now let us apply your argument to celibate Catholic priests, monks and nuns. Again, something that should not be encouraged, “If everyone was celibate then…” Looks like all those tax concessions to Catholic religious institutions should be rescinded. We wouldn’t want to encourage something that might result in the extinction of the human race, would we? Withdraw the tax concessions now.
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Yes, we promote farming and organized religion, because they are good
rossum said:
Your argument is obviously ridiculous.
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You haven’t shown that to be true.
 
fix said:
We have thousands of years of history, common sense, long faith traditions, and sodomy was illegal in many states up until a few years ago. I really do not think we need any complicated proofs to show that homosexual acts are evil.
Click to expand...
Actually,
if you could show some objective proofs, it might help this discussion. What you have succeeded in showing is that homosexuality in various places at various times was considered immoral. I won’t argue with that.
Now, by whatever means show me an argument that applies to this string (civil marriage) that convinces me that it is evil. Please!
 
RevDon said:
Actually,
if you could show some objective proofs, it might help this discussion. What you have succeeded in showing is that homosexuality in various places at various times was considered immoral. I won’t argue with that.
Now, by whatever means show me an argument that applies to this string (civil marriage) that convinces me that it is evil. Please!
Click to expand...
What do you mean by objective proof? What specifically do you seek as proof?
 
Stephen168 said:
The question is: Do we promote what is harmful to the common good?
Is human extinction good?
Click to expand...
RevDon said:
Consider this threat to the common good:

When carbon dioxide is present in the air at concentrations of near 600 parts per million, you will notice that the air begins to feel stuffy, thick and slightly difficult to breathe. At this level, which is only 250 parts per million above your normal tolerance, serious symptoms and permanent damage are unlikely to occur.
As the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air approaches 1,000 parts per million, some classic symptoms of CO2 poisoning begin to occur. These include difficulty breathing and shortness of breath, as well as increased heart rate, headaches, hyperventilation, fatigue, sweating and possible impairment of hearing. PesticideInfo.org recommends immediate removal to fresh air if these symptoms manifest, and medical attention if the symptoms persist after you have ended your exposure to the harmful levels of CO2
When levels reach 15,000 to 30,000 parts per million, severe symptoms begin to manifest within an hour or two of exposure. Angry Red Planet lists dizziness, nausea, shaking, visual hallucination, nausea and vomiting as symptoms that the CO2 level has become dangerously high. At this level of exposure, you may lose consciousness or die from asphyxiation. As with lower levels, PesticideInfo.org** recommends immediate removal from the CO2 source **and medical attention
Human beings exhale Carbon Dioxide, therefore all human breathing is opposed to the common good. To counteract this threat the following steps might be considered: exhaling must be banned. Failing that, human beings must be removed from the vicinity of any other human beings for their own safety. Or perhaps all human beings must be made to wear catalytic converters.
Click to expand...
How does that answer the questions?
Do you support air pollution?
 
RevDon said:
It would be unjust if you tried to move to Alaska so you could share equally in the benefits offered to Alaska residents and were told that you could not do so.
Click to expand...
But I don’t want to move to Alaska - I prefer Missouri. One might say that I’m “oriented” to living in Missouri. Missouri looks kind of like Alaska, and it’s also a state, so I should be able to claim Alaska residency without actually moving to Alaska.
 
Stephen168 said:
Yes, sodomy was illegal, because it is not reproductive.
If non-reproductive sex was adopted by all, it would lead to the extinction of the human race.
The extinction of the human race is not good.
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Could you produce some documentary evidence to show that in this country the enactment of laws against sodomy was based on the fear of the extinction of the human race?
 
Monkey1976 said:
But I don’t want to move to Alaska - I prefer Missouri. One might say that I’m “oriented” to living in Missouri. Missouri looks kind of like Alaska, and it’s also a state, so I should be able to claim Alaska residency without actually moving to Alaska.
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And Alaska can mean whatever you want it to mean, so you should be able to just say you are in Alaska and get money.
 
fix said:
What do you mean by objective proof? What specifically do you seek as proof?
Click to expand...
If you are trying to show it is evil, how about a list of ways that society could be harmed by same-sex marriage?
 
Monkey1976 said:
But I don’t want to move to Alaska - I prefer Missouri. One might say that I’m “oriented” to living in Missouri. Missouri looks kind of like Alaska, and it’s also a state, so I should be able to claim Alaska residency without actually moving to Alaska.
Click to expand...
If you don’t want to live your life in Alaska, then don’t grouse if you don’t get Alaska oil income.
 
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