A sermon at a "traditional" parish that left me uneasy

[Gordon_Sims]

I would love it if our priests gave homilies like this on a regular basis. I can count on one had with a few fingers left over the number of times I’ve heard a homily that dealt with sexuality and what the Church teaches about it. I think people need to hear frank discussions about moral issues and that priests need to abandon the kid gloves approach. We had one priest who handled every major issue, whether gay marriage, abortion, contraception, the attack on religious freedom or whatever, by telling everyone to go to the diocese website and read what the bishop wrote. The way he tiptoed around the word “abortion,” even when announcing that the group from the parish was leaving for the March for Life, made me think I was back in high school when we weren’t allowed to use the word. While talking to them about moral topics, my kids have asked me, if this is really what the Church teaches, why don’t they ever get that message from the priest or their teachers? They get that abortion and premarital sex are wrong, but on the rare occasions when the priest talks about these things and then dodges the subject or only speaks in euphemisms, it seems to weaken the impact of what we tell them.

I had one priest tell me that he doesn’t bring these things up in his homilies, or only does so in that tangential, “let’s not use the real words” way in order to avoid offending the more lax or “progressive” members of the parish. In other words, he’d rather let the misguided members of his flock keep stumbling along blindly rather than ruffle some feathers in an attempt to do what’s right. I don’t agree with that approach in the slightest.

 

[benjohnson]

Not to remark specifically on this case, but that a homily now and then makes us uneasy is generally a good sign.

I would say that generally, that if your priest is willing to tackle difficult teachings, then I would give him encouragement and thanks.

 

[pianistclare]

Not to remark specifically on this case, but that a homily now and then makes us uneasy is generally a good sign.

I would say that generally, that if your priest is willing to tackle difficult teachings, then I would give him encouragement and thanks.

Good point!

 

[on_the_hill]

Not to remark specifically on this case, but that a homily now and then makes us uneasy is generally a good sign.

I would say that generally, that if your priest is willing to tackle difficult teachings, then I would give him encouragement and thanks.

It would make me uneasy whether or not my kids were there. At 47 years old, I ydon’t like discussing sexuality in public. Never have.

 

[TarkanAttila]

It would make me uneasy whether or not my kids were there. At 47 years old, I ydon’t like discussing sexuality in public. Never have.

And why? What’s so bad about talking about it?

If you’re just not personally comfortable about it, that’s one thing. But if that’s all that stands between a Christian and talking about human sexuality, then we’ve got to talk about it - and we’ve got to talk about it in a wholesome, Christian way.

Although, it is tricky to do so without feeling “preachy”…

 

[on_the_hill]

It would make me uneasy whether or not my kids were there. At 47 years old, I ydon’t like discussing sexuality in public. Never have.

And why? What’s so bad about talking about it?

Um…I really don’t know. Lack of maturity on my part, maybe. An artifact of my upbringing maybe–when sex was never discussed in any way, shape or form in my parents’ house. Except when my dad would rant about immorality or how dancers on television were all about “the gyrations!”

My initial response to outward discussions about sex and sexuality is always, ‘Right. I get it. Can we move on now, please?’

**

 

[TimothyH]

St. Pope John Paul II started talking about human sexuality at his first Wednesday general audience and kept going for close to three years. Our masculinity and femininity was established in the first chapter of the Bible when God created us man and woman. Masculinity and femininity is part of how we are created in God’s image.

Opus Dei is very focused on the incarnation, the humanity of Christ, the fact that God became a human, one of us. Although Jesus did not have sex, sexuality is part of humanity and can be a means to help us progress in holiness. Opus Dei exists for the average person to grow in holiness. Sexuality is part of that.

Catholics should never be afraid to discuss properly ordered sexuality, especially in this age of disordered sexuality. Sex is a great gift from God in which husband and wife and God come together to create new life. I applaud the priest for preaching on it.

-Tim-

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I’m a homeschooling mom - 2 of my kids know about sex and 2 of them don’t. They probably learn later than many school kids, but the fact that many school kids know about it is not a good reason to just let it all hang out at the level that appropriately innocent children are forced to learn it too soon.

But let’s be clear. A child who doesn’t know about sex is not going to be scandalized by hearing the word “fornication.” You only learn what fornication is AFTER you learn what sex is. So I would have no problem with that word in a homily. I also would have no problem with a priest talking about contraception. If by some chance my young child actually listened carefully enough to remember those words to ask me about them later (which would be very unlikely), I would be able to explain them in such a way as to not have to reveal too much too soon.

Using the actual word sex, as you are describing, is trickier. Saying “the two become one in the marital embrace” is just as accurate as saying “the two become one in the sexual act” but leaves a little more up to the imagination, and allows for littler listeners to not have to learn it all at once.

I can totally imagine hearing too specific material at a homily and being upset that someone else just decided that my 6 year old must now learn certain things about reproduction I didn’t think she needed to know yet. But I also sympathize with the fact that for most priests, the homily is the only way they are going to reach people - after all, those that sign up for workshops and spiritual direction are probably not the ones who need to hear those messages the most. It is most likely Joe Catholic who comes to Mass most Sundays but doesn’t do much else, who needs to be told this stuff. So I don’t think it’s wrong to teach on this topic in the homily, but there are limits. And knowing that your audience includes young children, you have a moral obligation to not include them in a very adult conversation. In many cases, this just means using not-so obvious language, but in some case, it also means stopping before you’ve said everything you want to say, out of respect for the children who are listening.

I’m not sure how I would have felt at the homily you are describing. Objectively, I would prefer not to have those terms used in front of my kids who don’t understand sex yet. But depending on how often the terms were used, and in what context, I might be more or less bothered. Truth be told, I could probably come up with a definition of “sexual desire” that wouldn’t totally scandalize my littler ones. And the real truth is that my littler ones probably won’t listen the whole time. anyway.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My GF and I typically go to a very conservative parish for Sunday mass together. I had gone to it here-and-there until we started dating, and now we are there almost every Sunday. It’s actually run by Opus Dei.

The parish is known for having very “dogmatic” sermons at times; something that my traditional Catholic friends who visited the parish also noted. Yes, the style they are delivered in is more like a teaching session than a sermon.

This hasn’t bothered me too much, as they don’t harp on the same things over and over again. The priests do cover new and relevant topics. However, this past Sunday, a sermon left me feeling…well, just odd.

It was quite frankly all about sex.

It felt like a Pre-Cana or university seminar about sex. Yes, the priest did mention about the holiness of it…the respect of bodies…how our bodies were paid for (in regards to this Sunday’s epistle) and we must respect that. All valid points.

Then the priest went on for 25 minutes about the details of it that I found odd in a parish sermon, using words like “fornication”…“a holy bed of matrimony”…“sexual attraction”…“sexual desire”…“two becoming one in the sexual act”…and many other points.

I didn’t get all huffed-up; I sat and prayed for the priest. I am no prude by any stretch either; I went to a Catholic all-boys high school years ago and I have heard everything.

Yet, I was still bewildered. If I had a child of a certain age with me at mass, I’d have covered his ears.

Have we progressed as a society so much here in the USA to have frank sermons on sex as such? Has anyone else’s “traditional” parish gone on at length in such a viral way about the topic of sex in a sermon?

I wish more priests would give at least one sermon on sexuality. Our Church needs it. We need it.

 

[Elizium23]

The first person who talked to me frankly about sex was Dr. Ruth Westheimer. Oh, but if it had been a priest or religious instead.

In about sixth grade I began to receive the sorry excuse for sex education that is doled out by your typical liberal Catholic school. I went to a good all-boys school and got nothing, no examples of manliness by either married lay teachers or celibate Augustinians. As a direct result, I bought into popular culture’s view of sex and allowed myself to be seduced by an older girlfriend. That commenced eleven years outside the church of fornication and cohabitation.

My parents were unwilling to talk to me about sex. I think this is counterproductive. Parents should be eager and ready to expose their children to the realities of marital relations from an early age. Parents should explain the realities of chastity and NFP and all the things that the Church teaches. At the same time children should be shielded from the culture’s oversexed anything-goes attitude. But do you see what happens when we’re shielded on both sides? We seek it anywhere we can find it. And there goes any semblance of control by parents or teachers.

 

[on_the_hill]

I went to a good all-boys school and got nothing, no examples of manliness by either married lay teachers or celibate Augustinians.

But what would an example of manliness have been? Either within the context of sex ed or not.

 

[insideitall]

I agree with priests needing to give homilies that actually teach what the church teaches.

the only reason I’d feel uncomfortable is if I were there sitting right next to my mother, despite the fact I’m that a married adult with children

honestly, I’d have much, much more of a problem with a 25 minute homily.

 

[AltarKnight]

My GF and I typically go to a very conservative parish for Sunday mass together. I had gone to it here-and-there until we started dating, and now we are there almost every Sunday. It’s actually run by Opus Dei.

The parish is known for having very “dogmatic” sermons at times; something that my traditional Catholic friends who visited the parish also noted. Yes, the style they are delivered in is more like a teaching session than a sermon.

This hasn’t bothered me too much, as they don’t harp on the same things over and over again. The priests do cover new and relevant topics. However, this past Sunday, a sermon left me feeling…well, just odd.

It was quite frankly all about sex.

It felt like a Pre-Cana or university seminar about sex. Yes, the priest did mention about the holiness of it…the respect of bodies…how our bodies were paid for (in regards to this Sunday’s epistle) and we must respect that. All valid points.

Then the priest went on for 25 minutes about the details of it that I found odd in a parish sermon, using words like “fornication”…“a holy bed of matrimony”…“sexual attraction”…“sexual desire”…“two becoming one in the sexual act”…and many other points.

I didn’t get all huffed-up; I sat and prayed for the priest. I am no prude by any stretch either; I went to a Catholic all-boys high school years ago and I have heard everything.

Yet, I was still bewildered. If I had a child of a certain age with me at mass, I’d have covered his ears.

Have we progressed as a society so much here in the USA to have frank sermons on sex as such? Has anyone else’s “traditional” parish gone on at length in such a viral way about the topic of sex in a sermon?

Praying for the priest because he gave a truthful sermon on the act of sex?
Perhaps you were feelings guilty…Hmmm…

 

[neophyte]

Not too long ago, most people lived on or near farms, and at the earliest age saw animals doing what the priest was talking about. No great harm came from it.

Like as not, the young’uns already know more than you’d prefer. If they understood what he was saying and are able to ask questions, they’re not too young to have the right answer.

 

[maryjk]

Not too long ago, most people lived on or near farms, and at the earliest age saw animals doing what the priest was talking about. No great harm came from it.

Like as not, the young’uns already know more than you’d prefer. If they understood what he was saying and are able to ask questions, they’re not too young to have the right answer.

But that is the point.

They didn’t understand what he was saying. Which is why a child might say, “Mommy, what is contraception?” Or, “Mommy what is fornication?”

If they had understood, they wouldn’t be asking the question.

Again, I don’t mean to say that priests shouldn’t talk about these things. But they also shouldn’t be surprised if parents of young children leave while the topic is being discussed.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But that is the point.

They didn’t understand what he was saying. Which is why a child might say, “Mommy, what is contraception?” Or, “Mommy what is fornication?”

If they had understood, they wouldn’t be asking the question.

Again, I don’t mean to say that priests shouldn’t talk about these things. But they also shouldn’t be surprised if parents of young children leave while the topic is being discussed.

I dont think so. We live in a world where kids are bombarded by sex at even very young ages. Listen to a country music station or a rock station or anything else. I homeschool but my kids are still bombarded by it. Watch a football game? Its there. GO to a football game it’s there. And a parent has no problem when a kid says “mommy what is contracetion” making it simple and just saying “It is when people say no to God’s plan for children”

Kids accept that. And I LOVE that my kids could be asking about that from a Homily they heard rather than “what is viagra and how does it help daddy’s golf game.” As Catholics we are funny in that we accept what the world rapes our eyes and ears with and then get uncomfortable when the sacramental and Holy nature of sex is brought up…

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I dont think so. We live in a world where kids are bombarded by sex at even very young ages. Listen to a country music station or a rock station or anything else. I homeschool but my kids are still bombarded by it. Watch a football game? Its there. GO to a football game it’s there. And a parent has no problem when a kid says “mommy what is contracetion” making it simple and just saying “It is when people say no to God’s plan for children”

Kids accept that. And I LOVE that my kids could be asking about that from a Homily they heard rather than “what is viagra and how does it help daddy’s golf game.” As Catholics we are funny in that we accept what the world rapes our eyes and ears with and then get uncomfortable when the sacramental and Holy nature of sex is brought up…

Some people do try very hard to not accept what the world gives. For example, we don’t watch football (because we’re not interested), and we no longer watch the superbowl for the commercials. We do watch tv, as do our kids, but we try very hard to monitor the commercials, so that we can flip away when something inappropriate comes on. No one can filter out 100% of that junk, and we are not the most vigilant parents out there, but our younger children ARE pretty innocent. And it is simply NOT true, that “kids already know all this stuff.” In fact, when I did give the talk to my older 2 children (at the age of 10), one of them said he “pretty much figured” and the other one was completely shocked to hear how it all happened. So not all kids know.

As the parent, while I do have the obligation to teach my kids what they need to know, I also have their right to protect their innocence. And while it is true that this innocence is infiltrated at every chance possible by the secular world, that doesn’t justify a religious person infiltrating it too saying “everyone else does it.” I think it is an important gift to children and parents, especially those who make big sacrifices to protect their kids’ innocence, for religious leadership to not join in the boundary pushing.

Currently my 3rd grader is studying the 10 Commandments (homeschooled). Adultery is discussed. Her catechism material uses words like “impure” and “immoral pictures” but doesn’t go further than that. I explain that committing adultery is acting like you are married with someone who isn’t your spouse. She doesn’t question for more details, but in about a year when I give her “the talk,” then she will understand it better (and we will go over that commandment again, multiple times). Sure if she asks me what the priest meant by “sexual desire” I’d come up with an answer that made sense to her, but I also don’t think it’s necessary to put parents into that position over and over again. But if she asked me what “2 become one in the sexual union” I’d have a harder time saying anything other than “I’ll tell you in the future.” So this might put me the parent in the position of having to either tell my child a year or two (or more) before I really think she is ready, or obviously holding back from her. That’s a burden I don’t want put on me from a homily, since Mass is after all, supposed to be the most holy place for my young children to be.

Again, I’d have to hear the nuances to make a certain judgment about this particular homily, but we have to remember that the ends doesn’t justify the means. And that even though the most efficient way to teach the ignorant might be to give explicit information to them in front of children, it is not necessarily a greater good to do so.

 

[maryjk]

I dont think so. We live in a world where kids are bombarded by sex at even very young ages. Listen to a country music station or a rock station or anything else. I homeschool but my kids are still bombarded by it. Watch a football game? Its there. GO to a football game it’s there. And a parent has no problem when a kid says “mommy what is contraception” making it simple and just saying “It is when people say no to God’s plan for children”

Kids accept that. And I LOVE that my kids could be asking about that from a Homily they heard rather than “what is viagra and how does it help daddy’s golf game.” As Catholics we are funny in that we accept what the world rapes our eyes and ears with and then get uncomfortable when the sacramental and Holy nature of sex is brought up…

Ah, but you are making the assumption that my 6 year old was watching football games, either on TV or in person. Or that I allowed him to listen to music that talked about sex or stuff like that.

I didn’t. I allowed my child to be a child. When he watched TV, it was videos. When he listen to music it was CDs. Or he watched something I had already seen. PBS was our friend.

Of course I couldn’t shield him from everything. And I certainly didn’t do it to the point of crippling him. But I didn’t just throw my hands up and figure that he had to learn it at some point, why not now. Instead I exposed him to age appropriate information.

As a homeschooler, I had that control. Why wouldn’t I exercise it?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Ah, but you are making the assumption that my 6 year old was watching football games, either on TV or in person. Or that I allowed him to listen to music that talked about sex or stuff like that.

I didn’t. I allowed my child to be a child. When he watched TV, it was videos. When he listen to music it was CDs. Or he watched something I had already seen. PBS was our friend.

Of course I couldn’t shield him from everything. And I certainly didn’t do it to the point of crippling him. But I didn’t just throw my hands up and figure that he had to learn it at some point, why not now. Instead I exposed him to age appropriate information.

As a homeschooler, I had that control. Why wouldn’t I exercise it?

Mary, your kid knows more than you are seeing.

I know it is hard to stomach but they do. Have you ever taken them to a store?

And while we protect them. (we homeschoolers are notorious for this) We MUST give them context of the Holiness of sex. At any age. And a Homily decrying the World’s hatred of your 6 year old through contraception is as necessary as Jesus knowing why every 2 year old was killed in his hometown.

Kids will ask embarassing questions. They will inquire. And thier inquiries should be age appropriate. And if your 6 year old is wondering what a subject in the homily is then they are far more advanced than most kids in a pew.
Seton First Grade religion talks of adultery in the commands. It defines it as only a sin an adult can commit and moves on. This is all any parent who has a child utter the (sarc) “horrific” words what is contracetion needs to be given as an answer.

Or would you walk out on the hard Bible readings at mass as well? how about the passion?

 

[maryjk]

Mary, your kid knows more than you are seeing.

I know it is hard to stomach but they do. Have you ever taken them to a store?

Since my son is now 19, yes, he has been to a store. And college. And chances are now, he does know more than I am seeing. Heck, he probably knows more than I do.

But when he was 6? Nope. He didn’t. And he has said so. In fact, he has thanked me for not exposing him to some things.

So, no, you don’t have to expose them.