A silly simple question on sexual orientation (re gay marriage)

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How does laughing at the idea of man/man or woman/woman weddings construe taking away the right to vote, or taking away the right to employment or housing? 🤷

Hi JMCRAE: I think you are getting your conversations with LARKIN crossed with mine. He was talking about rights. I was talking about respect. BTW - rights are important, as LARKIN points out.

There used to be a comedy show called “Monty Python’s Flying Circus” that featured sketches involving this sort of thing, so I’m not the first person to think of it as material for a comedy, rather than a serious real-life thing.
Yeah, my favorite episode was the live parrot. 🙂
 
Grace & Peace!
They had a deep friendship - and as far as I can tell, they never went on any dates.
Deep friendship indeed. Certainly not a “disinterested” one.

You must be aware (or rather, I should say that I have trusted that you were aware) that when I speak of dates, I’m speaking of an opportunity to grow in relationship, to express fondness, love, intimacy, etc. I would imagine that such opportunities were not unknown in the ancient world, but you are quite right to point out that “the date” is a relatively modern social convention.
I have no idea what your purpose is, in bringing them up - although I’m kind of glad you did, since I think they can serve as a model of friendship, as can the relationship between Ruth and Naomi, which also was not a dating relationship.
I made my purpose clear in my previous post. I feel like I’m repeating myself a lot in this thread so would rather not do so again. If after re-reading my post you feel that I was not sufficiently clear, I can walk you through it.

David and Jonathan are indeed a model friendship. But I believe the evidence points to much more than friendship, however deep. I think that by employing the word “friend” that you’re being unduly dismissive of the evidence that suggests that theirs is a model loving homoerotic relationship as well. (You can argue the same for Ruth and Naomi, but I don’t believe there is as much evidence there to argue from.)

In a subsequent post, you mentioned the idea of “sham marriages.” I’m curious to know your thoughts on the affrerement or adelphopoiesis rites? Keep in mind that I don’t believe either were gay marriage substitutes–but that they were used to mark a relationship as set apart from other relationships, as having more involved than just “disinterested friendship” is clear. Even the David and Jonathan relationship was “covenanted”…

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
The LPGA by its nature and purpose excludes men. If men sued and won the right to play in the LPGA, it would no longer be the LPGA. It might still be called the LPGA but it would no longer be what men had sued to be a part of. You might even say the men who participated in the LPGA would be “laughing stock.”

The same can be said about marriage; by its nature and purpose it excluded people of the same sex. Same sex couples are demanding to be let into “marriage.” As they “marry,” they destroy the institution they want to be a part of.
OH, now I see what you were getting at. Yes, I agree. 👍
 
Yeah, my favorite episode was the live parrot. 🙂
I’m sure you would agree that the scene presented is funny because it is totally absurd. Were such a thing to occur in real life, you would suspect mental illness, would you not?

It is the same concept being presented with their absurdist portrayals of men in women’s roles.
 
I’m sure you would agree that the scene presented is funny because it is totally absurd. Were such a thing to occur in real life, you would suspect mental illness, would you not?

It is the same concept being presented with their absurdist portrayals of men in women’s roles.
I don’t know. I work in international business relations. I have seen some very strange things and wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see someone try to tell me that a dead parrot is alive. Anyway, seeing two men or two women getting married wouldn’t look funny to me, nor would it look like mental illness, but that’s just me. If it is how they express their love, then I don’t think it would be absurd or the object of ridicule.
 
I don’t know. I work in international business relations. I have seen some very strange things and wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see someone try to tell me that a dead parrot is alive. Anyway, seeing two men or two women getting married wouldn’t look funny to me, nor would it look like mental illness, but that’s just me. If it is how they express their love, then I don’t think it would be absurd or the object of ridicule.
The purpose of marriage is to unite a man and woman in their common goal of establishing a family.

As Stephen pointed out above, two people of the same sex getting “married” has no chance of achieving that goal in any realistic way. Instead, one of them puts on a wedding dress and one of them puts on a tux, and they play-act a wedding, and then, nothing happens, because it isn’t physically possible for them to become united in holy matrimony.
 
It was overturned, yesterday. 🙂
no

the decision was stayed pending appeal

Does this mean that you did not read it even though I posted it and it answers your question? I took it to be a sincere question with sincere interest in the answer.
 
The purpose of marriage is to unite a man and woman in their common goal of establishing a family.

As Stephen pointed out above, two people of the same sex getting “married” has no chance of achieving that goal in any realistic way. Instead, one of them puts on a wedding dress and one of them puts on a tux, and they play-act a wedding, and then, nothing happens, because it isn’t physically possible for them to become united in holy matrimony.
Hi JMCRAE: If we are now saying that the the purpose of a marriage is to raise a family and main qualifier that distinguishes gay marriage from straight marriage is the biological ability to produce children, shouldn’t heterosexual couples take a fertility test before being given a marriage license? No point on them getting married if they can’t have children. Of course both straight and gay couples could adopt one of the many children in this world who need homes, don’t you think? They could, that is. if we grew as a society to the point where we didn’t ridicule people for what they are.I know lesbian couples who are raising children. Are there people who scoff at them and shun them? Yes, but whose problem is that?

As far as men wearing dresses to weddings, I do not believe that would been seen very often. Most gay men wear men’s clothes and do so in accordance with the occasion, meaning you would more likely see two tuxedos.
 
… Of course both straight and gay couples could adopt one of the many children in this world who need homes, don’t you think? They could, that is. if we grew as a society to the point where we didn’t ridicule people for what they are.I know lesbian couples who are raising children. Are there people who scoff at them and shun them? Yes, but whose problem is that?..
Unfortunately, it is mostly the children who suffer in these cases. I am a teacher; I have seen it.
 
Unfortunately, it is mostly the children who suffer in these cases. I am a teacher; I have seen it.
Yes, but they suffer because of the limited views of the society that they live in, and that can change. As long as people insist on trying to throw scriptural passages around to say how something is wrong, it isn’t likely to change. Anyway, it’s human nature to try and elevate one’s self esteem by finding someone you see as lesser than yourself to denigrate People will always find someone to isolate and ridicule until they gain some level of enlightenment. I have seldom seen any level of enlightenment emerge from the ranks of people who quote scripture to say that their religion is right, the one way, infallible and so on. It seems to come from simple people, whose minds are uncluttered with useless points if biblical law. To me, there is one law. It came from Jesus when he said to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If you read my posts, I quote that like a broken record. I do it because it means more than it says at first glance. It means that you, the person next to you, and all people are spiritual sparks, in quality one with the Lord. When you see Him in yourself and in everyone else, the laws just start to fall in place for you. You no longer want to steal or to lie or to do any of the things prohibited by God’s laws. You have to know God fist, and the other commandments become easy. That is why this was Jesus’ only commandment. For 2,000 year we have put the cart before the horse - trying to connect with God by obeying commandments and laws. You will go to your grave craving and obsessing over things you never overcame, and therefore will have accomplished nothing. It has to be the other way. You have to know God first, become enlightened, and then your bad proclivities will fall away of their own. It doesn’t work well the other way round. Sri Anandamayi Ma expressed it more simply and eloquently than I can.
 
=StAnastasia;6941959]For example, XY females, who are genetically male but anatomically female, due to gestational hormonal insufficiency. Are they allowed to marry males? Or must they marry females? Or are they simply condemned to a life of celibacy?
Marriage is between One man and One Women…PERIOD.

If this is unwanted for any reason [God remains IN charge] Take up your Cross and follow ME!

Gen. Chapter 1: 26-29
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. *** And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply,*** and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. "

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
Marriage is between One man and One Women…PERIOD.

If this is unwanted for any reason [God remains IN charge] Take up your Cross and follow ME!

Gen. Chapter 1: 26-29
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. *** And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply,*** and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. "

Love and prayers,
Pat
Did they marry?
 
=larkin31;6967790]Did they marry?
It would be good for you to keep the following in mind.

God does send anyone to hell; we make that decision ourselves.

Neither God nor I are impressed with secular smart alec answers.

Obviously the Sacrament had yet to be instituted; however they did experience an eariler form of marrige.

Gen. Chapter 2: 18- 25
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked,** and were not ashamed**

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
It would be good for you to keep the following in mind.

God does send anyone to hell; we make that decision ourselves.

Neither God nor I are impressed with secular smart alec answers.

Obviously the Sacrament had yet to be instituted; however they did experience an eariler form of marrige.

Gen. Chapter 2: 18- 25
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked,**** and were not ashamed

Love and prayers,
Pat
There was nothing smart-alec about my statement. If you do not understand that the marital-status of Adam and Eve–indeed even their very existence–is a serious theological debate among believers, then all I can say is, “Read a bit more.”

And if your only reply is to quote the line about the psychological explanation for why we have sexual desire (by the way, the Hebrew word in the original does not necessarily mean “wife”), then there is not much more to say, eh?

But if you would like to actually discuss the REASONS you take Adam and Eve to be the first example of a “married” couple, then I would love to read it! Sincerely.
 
Grace & Peace!
The purpose of marriage is to unite a man and woman in their common goal of establishing a family.
Jmcrae, I don’t mean to get too off topic here, but you must realize that this an understanding of what marriage has become, not what marriage* always has been*. Evidence suggests that marriage was a private matter for much of the first millennium and was largely understood along the lines of Roman civil law. Marriage was largely a social obligation and often not so much about the people getting married as the uniting of the families to which those people belonged–the civil/social/political/economic dimensions of marriage are paramount. There was no standard liturgy, and while many wrote of procreation as a part of marriage, there does not seem to have been any general trend toward a mysticisation of the marriage rite, the message being that marriage is about this world, not the next (which accords with the gospels). Lateran 2 sums it up when clerical marriage is condmned: a priest should not “indulge in marriage and impurities.” The “and” there is telling. Marriage and impurity (which, in this context, must refer to sex), in the eyes of the medieval church, went hand in hand. But we’re getting ahead of ourselves by a couple centuries, because marriage does not properly become the business of the church until the turn of the second millennium, at which point Church blessing of a marriage becomes obligatory, it assumes the nature of a sacrament and the beginnings of a standardized marriage rite enter the liturgical books in earnest. But even then, the practices of clandestine marriage (a holdover from the time when marriage was private and civil) and concubinage were not dealt with until Trent, and were only dealt the final death blow at Vatican I, I believe.

The shift seems to have been occassioned by a movement from civil authority to place questions of inheritance, property rights, wills, etc. in the hands of the church. Given that marriage was, for the most part, about property and inheritance (creating and maintaining legacies, as well as expanding or cementing business and political ties) marriage also came under the purview of the church.

It isn’t until much much later (the 18th century has been suggested by some) that the idea of marrying someone you love gains any sort of wide purchase in the public imagination. At which point, the civil/social/economic/political purposes of marriage begin to take a back seat to individual desire and romance. Which, in many ways, is the logical consequence of the much earlier repeal of Roman civil penalties for childless couples or single people–because the church valued asceticism and celibacy.

All of which is why the idea of traditional marriage as it is currently articulated simply doesn’t make sense. It’s not traditional in the least–it’s a child of 20th century fantasizing. Marriage as it is now is the result of a process of change and growth that has been going on for millennia. It is, moreover, not the end of the process. We do ourselves and history an injustice when we believe ourselves, our times, our culture to be the inevitable sum of history. That is not an argument for gay marriage–you’ll see in these posts that I make no such argument. It is just an appeal for historical perspective and the dismantling of fantasy juggernauts.
As Stephen pointed out above, two people of the same sex getting “married” has no chance of achieving that goal in any realistic way. Instead, one of them puts on a wedding dress and one of them puts on a tux, and they play-act a wedding, and then, nothing happens, because it isn’t physically possible for them to become united in holy matrimony.
I suspect that you consider a married couple a family only when they have children and not when they get married.

It may not be possible for my partner and I to be united in holy matrimony. But that’s fine. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again–I don’t want a rite performed over us which is just a watered down version of heterosexual marriage. I don’t think that respects our relationship, and I don’t think it respects heterosexual relationships–I don’t understand the impulse that says all loving relationships must look the same and be the same when not all loving relationships *are *the same, and admit significant differences. But that my partner and I can covenant with each other, like David and Jonathan, that our souls can be knit together (i.e. united by this covenant) by God’s grace like David’s and Jonathan’s were, is happily not dependent on the rite of marriage (as scripture demonstrates).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

Jmcrae, I don’t mean to get too off topic here, but you must realize that this an understanding of what marriage has become, not what marriage* always has been*. Evidence suggests that marriage was a private matter for much of the first millennium and was largely understood along the lines of Roman civil law. Marriage was largely a social obligation and often not so much about the people getting married as the uniting of the families to which those people belonged–the civil/social/political/economic dimensions of marriage are paramount. There was no standard liturgy, and while many wrote of procreation as a part of marriage, there does not seem to have been any general trend toward a mysticisation of the marriage rite, the message being that marriage is about this world, not the next (which accords with the gospels). Lateran 2 sums it up when clerical marriage is condmned: a priest should not “indulge in marriage and impurities.” The “and” there is telling. Marriage and impurity (which, in this context, must refer to sex), in the eyes of the medieval church, went hand in hand. But we’re getting ahead of ourselves by a couple centuries, because marriage does not properly become the business of the church until the turn of the second millennium, at which point Church blessing of a marriage becomes obligatory, it assumes the nature of a sacrament and the beginnings of a standardized marriage rite enter the liturgical books in earnest. But even then, the practices of clandestine marriage (a holdover from the time when marriage was private and civil) and concubinage were not dealt with until Trent, and were only dealt the final death blow at Vatican I, I believe.

The shift seems to have been occassioned by a movement from civil authority to place questions of inheritance, property rights, wills, etc. in the hands of the church. Given that marriage was, for the most part, about property and inheritance (creating and maintaining legacies, as well as expanding or cementing business and political ties) marriage also came under the purview of the church.

It isn’t until much much later (the 18th century has been suggested by some) that the idea of marrying someone you love gains any sort of wide purchase in the public imagination. At which point, the civil/social/economic/political purposes of marriage begin to take a back seat to individual desire and romance. Which, in many ways, is the logical consequence of the much earlier repeal of Roman civil penalties for childless couples or single people–because the church valued asceticism and celibacy.

All of which is why the idea of traditional marriage as it is currently articulated simply doesn’t make sense. It’s not traditional in the least–it’s a child of 20th century fantasizing. Marriage as it is now is the result of a process of change and growth that has been going on for millennia. It is, moreover, not the end of the process. We do ourselves and history an injustice when we believe ourselves, our times, our culture to be the inevitable sum of history. That is not an argument for gay marriage–you’ll see in these posts that I make no such argument. It is just an appeal for historical perspective and the dismantling of fantasy juggernauts.

I suspect that you consider a married couple a family only when they have children and not when they get married.

It may not be possible for my partner and I to be united in holy matrimony. But that’s fine. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again–I don’t want a rite performed over us which is just a watered down version of heterosexual marriage. I don’t think that respects our relationship, and I don’t think it respects heterosexual relationships–I don’t understand the impulse that says all loving relationships must look the same and be the same when not all loving relationships *are *the same, and admit significant differences. But that my partner and I can covenant with each other, like David and Jonathan, that our souls can be knit together (i.e. united by this covenant) by God’s grace like David’s and Jonathan’s were, is happily not dependent on the rite of marriage (as scripture demonstrates).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
An excellent, thoughtful post, that takes into account a large perspective of what marriage has been, rather than only what a church has said that marriage “should be”.
 
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