A simple argument refuting Faith Alone

[GreggAlvarez]

The problem is that when you look at the Mosaic Law (in the Torah), you’ll find all kinds of broader ethical obligations to love one’s neighbor. But most most likely, “works of the law” include all the imperatives found in the Old Testament–the law, prophets, psalms, proverbs and other writings. But even if you confine “works of the law” to the Pentateuch, you still find a lot in there about “good works.” It’s not just the ten commandments and ceremonial laws; it’s also full of a lot of commands that we find in the New Testament.

Works of the law and good works are completely different in the New Testament. To liken “works of the law” to “good works” leaves no room to obey the law of Love set for by Christ as seen in First John. The difference between “works of the law” and “good works” is exactly as you said it: one is an “ethical obligation”. By definition, one cannot love another (good works) if they are obligated (works of the law).

Anyway, justify this biblical statement with “Faith Alone”.

“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” ~ James 2:14

One cannot say that works are to justify himself in front of men because Jesus clearly condemns that in Matthew 6. In any case, you are not doing a good work if you do it to be known in front of others. THAT is an obligation.

So, justify Faith Alone with James 2:14 and 19b - “Even the demons believe that and tremble.” I guess those demons are saved also.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

What do you mean by “Final” salvation? Is there a non-Final salvation?

Final Salvation is that in which you are found to have been a “good and faithful servant” at the end of your life by God, at which point you become worthy of entering Heaven. Before that, it’s only conversion (becoming a servant) and living out your life in servanthood.

The phrase, “Purified by faith” is the same thing as “the righteousness that comes by faith” which is a phrase that the apostle Paul used in Romans 4:13. But that doesn’t refute imputation, it is only stating that the imputed righteousness of Jesus is apprehended by our God-given faith in Jesus. We are credited with His righteousness not on the basis of our own worthiness, but on the worthiness of Jesus, if we trust in Him for our salvation.

You can’t frame “Christ’s Righteousness” as an alien legal righteousness if you want to say it “purifies your heart” since this violates the Justification-Sanctification distinction Protestants claim (which isn’t actually Biblical at all).

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Paul does talk about the three theological virtues in 1 Cor. 13. But he does not mention these as the condition that must by satisfied in order to be justified.

Hope and Love must be present to make Faith “living” (e.g. Rom 4:18-22).

But let’s clarify our terms. Catholics don’t distinguish between justification and sanctification

We do and we don’t. It all depends on the context of which someone is speaking. For example, the terms can be used synonymously, or the mention of one implies the presence of the other. Justification is generally an broad term encompassing within it forgiveness, sanctification, adoption, etc.

; rather the distinction is between initial justification (which normally takes place in and through baptism) and ongoing justification (i.e., growing in grace unto perfection).

That is also true.

Fine–I won’t quibble about the language–it’s the concept that matters. Given this schema, then I think we can say that Paul nowhere makes faith, hope or love the condition that must be fulfilled in order to attain one’s initial justification.

Sure he does, many times (e.g. 2 Thes 2:13).

In fact, it’s the other way around in Catholic theology. In baptism, faith, hope and love are infused into the recipient.

That’s only in the case of an infant; in an converting adult, those gifts can already exist (at least Faith) and are strengthened.

So if that’s the case, then I’m not sure it’s accurate to say that we are justified (initially) by faith, hope and love. But perhaps it is accurate to say that we are justified (in the ongoing sense, or what Protestants usually call sanctification) by faith, hope and love.

Love justifies because it (agape) along with sanctifying grace enables God to dwell inside your soul, and thus to be in a relationship with God (you can’t be in a relationship with someone you don’t Love). The epitome of Justification is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you. But one cannot have Love without also having Faith and Hope (those these latter two can be had without Love in the case of Mortal Sin). The “ground” for Justification is the condition of our soul - that is why Catholics say Justification and Sanctification can’t be formally separated.

“Works of the law” include both good works in general and also specific obligations. Whatever is prescribed in the Law and the Prophets is what Paul puts under the heading, “works of the law.” That means everything from “offer a turtledove” to “trust in the Lord with all your heart” can fall under the rubric of “works of the law” for Paul.

Amen! It is a package deal, so to speak. You cannot choose to keep some of those laws but not others. Once you grasp this, it sets you up to reject the idea “faith - works of law = faith alone”. Paul was rejecting the Law as one big package, not concerned with whether this or that command was a “good work”.

I still don’t get it. You keep asserting this. But you haven’t explained why. Here’s how I see it: If we are no longer obligated to do the works of the law, then, perforce, we’re under no obligation to be circumcised, right? Isn’t this exactly the argument against the Judaizers by several NT authors?

You are right. But you cannot then turn around and say after Justification Christians are called to do “works of the Law” as part of their Sanctification. Christians can be called to do “good works” after Justification, but that is not synonymous with “works of the Law”!

If anything, I think you would be drawing the exact opposite conclusion. For example: Consider this argument:

1. Christians are not obligated to do “works of the law.”
2. “Love of neighbor” is a work of the law.
3. Therefore Christians do not need to love their neighbor.

Of course we all reject this argument. But why? The reason is because there may be another reason why Christians would want to love their neighbor that has nothing to do with “law-keeping” and everything to do with the imitation of Christ and the obedience of faith.

You are on the right track. You see, love of neighbor is not uniquely a “work of the Law,” it is a universal principle, thus you can love your neighbor without in any way necessitating you’re engaging in works of the Law. Thus, when Paul says “faith apart from works of the Law,” this in no way necessitates “faith apart from loving neighbor.”

Paul’s argument is that the Mosaic Law came 430 years after Abraham (Gal 3:15-18) - so how could Abraham keep or be bound to a Law that didn’t even exist yet? Just because the Mosaic Law didn’t exist, didn’t mean things like theft, murder, etc, were not sins! They were sins, just not punishable under Mosaic dipensation/jurisdiction.

Please explain how. I really am not following you here.

If you believe Christians can/should/must do good works after they’re justified (in opposition to antinomianism), then circumcision should be on the list of “good works” (if you consider it a good work).

But if circumcision is not a good work, then the following Protestant substitution is invalid:
“faith apart from works of the Law, like circumcision”
equals
“faith apart from good works, like circumcision”

See, you cannot claim “works of the Law” are “good works” and thus you cannot say Paul was contrasting faith to good works.

(1 of 2)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(2 of 2)

I think I’m starting to understand your point. My provisional answer is that “the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2) overlaps quite a bit with “works of the law” so that often what belongs to the former also belongs to the latter.

Yes. For example, theft can be illegal in England and theft can ALSO be illegal in America, but they are under two different legal systems. Saying one is saved apart from English Law (“works of the Law”) does NOT automatically indicate one is saved apart from ANY law (“good works”)!

If an English person abandons their country and becomes a US Citizen, they are no longer under English Law (Moses), but they are under American Law (Christ). This means the person no longer has to follow certain English Laws such as respecting the King&Queen (circumcision), because there is no Monarchy in American Law.

But the same can’t be said of circumcision, animal sacrifices, the observance of particular Jewish feasts, and even the Sabbath itself, all of which are clearly marked as “fulfilled” under the terms of the New Covenant. So if Protestants are in a bind for not following these fulfilled items from the “works of the law,” then so are Jesus and the apostles, from whom we got the idea.

That’s just it, you cannot limit what is fulfilled and what is not, and simply keep what is not. What that is doing is dividing the Mosaic Law up into ceremonial, civil, and moral works, and keeping only the latter. But that’s simply butchering the Mosaic Law, saying it keeps it’s force for moral commands but loses its force (and thus ignoring) it’s ceremonial and civil demands.

Take the Ten Commandments (the heart of the Mosaic Law) as an example. Are they moral, civil, or ceremonial works? It can’t be moral only, since the 4th Commandment gives strict Sabbath day ceremonial-civil regulations. Are you free to keep 9 of the 10 by ignoring the 4th Commandment? NO. That’s butchering the Ten Commandments. Rather, with the New Covenant ushered in, the Mosaic Law Covenant is abolished, thus the Ten Commandments as a whole legally have no force.

If you believe the Ten Commandments still have force, you must keep the 4th Commandment to the letter.

The problem is that when you look at the Mosaic Law (in the Torah), you’ll find all kinds of broader ethical obligations to love one’s neighbor. But most most likely, “works of the law” include all the imperatives found in the Old Testament–the law, prophets, psalms, proverbs and other writings. But even if you confine “works of the law” to the Pentateuch, you still find a lot in there about “good works.” It’s not just the ten commandments and ceremonial laws; it’s also full of a lot of commands that we find in the New Testament.

Sure, your logic is fine. It only runs into problems when you try to substitute “good works” whenever you see Paul mention “works of the Law”.

So it’s not that Protestants are arbitrarily choosing to follow some things in the OT and not others. On the contrary, we take our queue are from Jesus and the apostles who make it quite plane which parts of the OT law are still in effect and which have been fulfilled.

None of the Mosaic Law is “still in effect” - that’s actually a form of rejecting the New Covenant. The entire Mosaic Law is fulfilled in Christ and wholly abolished.

 

[ifonefun]

Final Salvation is that in which you are found to have been a “good and faithful servant” at the end of your life by God, at which point you become worthy of entering Heaven. Before that, it’s only conversion (becoming a servant) and living out your life in servanthood.

Salvation is an extremely important matter for us sinners. So, what is the definition of “good” as you use it when you say this? Is it the same thing as PERFECT? If not, then how “good” is good enough for God, and how do we know how much “goodness” is required of us for salvation?

You can’t frame “Christ’s Righteousness” as an alien legal righteousness if you want to say it “purifies your heart” since this violates the Justification-Sanctification distinction Protestants claim (which isn’t actually Biblical at all).

I said that it is through our God-given faith that we lay hold of the grace of justification, not by our good works. I provided some verses that tell us this. But now you say that it isn’t biblical?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Being saved is by grace through faith. But once you have been saved, you must respond with love to go to heaven. That is the part of the Gospel you have ignored.

Do you think God is an accountant? Seriously, God gave you the grace and skills to do his works and we are expected to do them. To those to whom more was given, more will be expected. And yes, we are expected to love at all times. Love is a mindset of doing things for others without expecting anything in return. Its about being selfless instead of selfish. Instead about worrying about how you are going to get to heaven, start worrying about how you will get someone else to heaven. That’s how you get there. And God will judge you both justly and mercifully. And by the way, do you think its bad news that you are expected to love your fellow man? Because that’s what heaven is all about. If you can’t do that on earth, you won’t need to worry about heaven.

Romans 11:5-6 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Sure, we are saved by grace. We don’t do anything to get into the state of grace other than ask for it through the sacraments. But once we have that grace, we are expected to use it.

As the apostle tells us, chosen by grace cannot mean, “chosen because we’ve done all of the things that prove our love for God.” Salvation is either all of grace or it is all of our works. What the apostle will not allow is some combination of God’s grace plus our good works.

What are you talking about? have you ever read Romans? here is Chapter 2: 1-11:
1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
The Good News is that if we follow Jesus, he will lead us to heaven. That is very good news indeed. If you are not willing to actually follow Jesus, then you will get what you deserve.

So you think you can’t follow Jesus but you still think you are going to heaven? Isn’t that exactly what he said to do: pick up your cross and follow him? While you will never be exactly like Jesus,- afterall he is God - you can certainly follow him as closely as possible. If you give up without even trying, then you should expect to be condemned. He gave each one of us a set of skills and the necessary grace to do the works he has meant for us to do and he expects us to do them.

 

[fhansen]

It is one thing to trust that God has the power to convert you (cause you to change your mind) and a very different thing to believe that your changed mind is ever going to make you worthy of heaven. In our flesh, even forgiven sinners still sin in our thoughts, attitudes, and our deeds. Even king David sinned horribly with Bathsheba after he began walking with God by faith.

So, under the old covenant, David had no way of knowing that his sins–murder and adultery, were violations of God’s laws? I’m not sure if this is what you’re saying.

Do you think God would say to David, “You believe in me, David, and with that I’m well pleased-go, and have as many Uriahs killed as you like-it matters not to me.”

Gods’ purpose isn’t merely to change our minds-it’s to give us a new heart, replacing the stony one with a heart of flesh. It’s to renew us, to mold us into the beings he’s created us to be. Conversion is a* process*-we’re not merely converted to faith, we’re converted to* love*, to fulfill the greatest commandment. This is our justice, a justice He promises to help us fulfill because He never intended us *not *to fulfill it-and this life of semi-exile from Him supplies the “ingredients” to help us find out our need for Him and to find our way back to Him.

The CC teaches that we’ll struggle with concupiscence throughout our lives. This is the struggle against sin-the attachment for created things rather than God. And this is a good struggle, which we’ll win with His help prior to heaven, because no sinners can enter heaven according to scripture-sinners aren’t yet capable of “seeing” God because they aren’t yet fully sold out to Him, still loving other things more than Him.

Our wills are the prize-Adam & Eve fell willfully, we must rise willfully, with His help. When our wills are finally one with His, our salvation is complete and the universe is back in order again. God forgives us our sins but He wants us to go, and sin no more.

This is mankinds’ purpose-not merely to fall into sin and then be forgiven/saved arbitrarily at some later date-but to find out for ourselves why sin is wrong and to learn the “value” of God above all else. The New Covenant message is that only God can save-man can’t save himself-because man needs what he’s missing, what he spurned at the fall-which is Gods’ Spirit, itself, living in us, being our God, without which we remain in our sins, hopeless against triumphing over them. With us this is impossible, but "with God all things are possible."

 

[ifonefun]

So you think you can’t follow Jesus but you still think you are going to heaven? Isn’t that exactly what he said to do: pick up your cross and follow him? While you will never be exactly like Jesus,- afterall he is God - you can certainly follow him as closely as possible. If you give up without even trying, then you should expect to be condemned. He gave each one of us a set of skills and the necessary grace to do the works he has meant for us to do and he expects us to do them.

OK, what if we do those good works but we don’t always do them with perfectly loving motives? What if we often do good unto others because we are hoping to attain salvation for ourselves? Are our good works “good enough” for salvation under those conditions?

 

[ifonefun]

Do you think God would say to David, “You believe in me, David, and with that I’m well pleased-go, and have as many Uriahs killed as you like-it matters not to me.”

No, I don’t think that God would ever approve of sinning. It is for this reason that I am not convinced that “pretty good” is good enough for God, who’s standard for goodness is absolute perfection at every moment and in every detail. The whole problem with your view of God with regard to our sin, is that you seem to be saying that “pretty good” righteousness in this life is good enough TO BE FOUND WORTHY OF SALVATION.

My view of God is the opposite. I think that God detests every kind of sin more than any of us sinners can imagine, and that is why nothing less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus can be sufficient for our salvation. We must be found righteous IN HIM–in Jesus, and not in ourselves, because none of us has any righteousness in ourselves. As Paul says in Romans three, “there is no one righteous, not even one.”

 

[fhansen]

No, I don’t think that God would ever approve of sinning. It is for this reason that I am not convinced that “pretty good” is good enough for God, who’s standard for goodness is absolute perfection at every moment and in every detail. The whole problem with your view of God with regard to our sin, is that you seem to be saying that “pretty good” righteousness in this life is good enough TO BE FOUND WORTHY OF SALVATION.

My view of God is the opposite. I think that God detests every kind of sin more than any of us sinners can imagine, and that is why nothing less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus can be sufficient for our salvation. We must be found righteous IN HIM–in Jesus, and not in ourselves, because none of us has any righteousness in ourselves. As Paul says in Romans three, “there is no one righteous, not even one.”

But the problem with your view, in my opinion, is that it means God created man to sin. IOW, “perfect righteousness” is, in the end, nothing more or less than however God created us to be-and who He expects us to be-and who He will have us be. I said nothing about our being “pretty good”. Only perfection will do, as Jesus told us: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

[ifonefun]

But the problem with your view, in my opinion, is that it means God created man to sin.

IMO it would be more accurate to say that God created man for His own glory, and that sin was foreknown by God to play a huge role in the glory of God. But God’s purpose in the creation is all about God’s glory. So, although I wouldn’t word it the way you did, I’m not really saying that you are wrong.

IOW, “perfect righteousness” is, in the end, nothing more or less than however God created us to be-and who He expects us to be-and who He will have us be. I said nothing about our being “pretty good”. Only perfection will do, as Jesus told us: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

It seems to me that what God expects sinners to do is sin. The reason why we sin is because we are sinners by nature in Adam.

 

[fhansen]

. The reason why we sin is because we are sinners by nature in Adam.

Yes, but that’s exactly what God wants to put an end to. That’s why Jesus came-to reconcile us with God. But not only by forgiving sin, but by taking it away! “Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more.” Sin, itself, is what separates man from God. And the first, or Original, sin accomplished just that. God was spurned, rejected, no longer recognized as God. And all personal sin following the first one amounts to a continuation of that disposition, that unbelieving, mistrusting offense against God.

This is why faith is the beginning of our restoration. Then we become malleable clay in the Potters’ hands. Then He can mold us into His creation. Then the New Covenant promises of Jeremiah 31 can be fulfilled, God writing His laws on our hearts and in our minds,* making* us just, helping us to know Him again, individually, so no man need teach another, "Know the Lord, because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”

This is mans’ restoration and his only means to be holy-by the Spirit of God once again residing within Him. This is what man lost at the fall and what must be regained. This is Gods’ righteousness within us, rather than the righteousness of man, a false righteousness, a stolen prerogative. And this is why the Law-mere obedience to a moral code, no matter how right that code is- justifies no one-only God can do so.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
So you think you can’t follow Jesus but you still think you are going to heaven? Isn’t that exactly what he said to do: pick up your cross and follow him? While you will never be exactly like Jesus,- afterall he is God - you can certainly follow him as closely as possible. If you give up without even trying, then you should expect to be condemned. He gave each one of us a set of skills and the necessary grace to do the works he has meant for us to do and he expects us to do them.

Read Matthew Chapter 6. If you fast, pray or give alms for public adulation, then you have already got your reward. Yu must do these things out of pure motives to get spritual benefit. This requires a change in mind frame. As John the Baptist put it. " He (Jesus ) must increase, we must decrease."

But you need to start somewhere. Try small acts of kindness, for whatever motive. When it becomes habitual, you will have learned to love.

As for whether its good enough, God will be the judge.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhansen
But the problem with your view, in my opinion, is that it means God created man to sin.

Do you really think God created man to reveal his own glory? Wow, do you have a low opinion of God. I think God created man to share in his love. And he gave man free will because love must be freely given. Sin is man exercising his free will in opposition to God.

Quote:
IOW, “perfect righteousness” is, in the end, nothing more or less than however God created us to be-and who He expects us to be-and who He will have us be. I said nothing about our being “pretty good”. Only perfection will do, as Jesus told us: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Wow, you also have a really low opinion of man, who was afterall, created in the image of God. When man sins, its a failure on his part - something to be ashamed of, . not something to be condoned as perfectly natural…

 

[ifonefun]

Do you really think God created man to reveal his own glory? Wow, do you have a low opinion of God.

Why would that make my opinion of God ‘low’ ?

I think God created man to share in his love.

To me, this seems unlikely since most of mankind do not truly know God. Most people worship false gods, and do not know God.

And he gave man free will because love must be freely given. Sin is man exercising his free will in opposition to God.

Yes, before the fall, Adam and Eve were truly free, and they truly loved God, and they trusted Him completely. But then they ate the fruit and they lost their freedom. There is no freedom in being continually alienated from God because of sin. The bible tells us that “Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.” If you think that loving darkness more than the Light is a manner of existence that sounds like freedom, then you have a very different view of freedom from mine.

Wow, you also have a really low opinion of man, who was afterall, created in the image of God. When man sins, its a failure on his part - something to be ashamed of, . not something to be condoned as perfectly natural…

If you think I’m condoning sin, then you must have misunderstood me. What I’m trying to say is that our sinful fallen condition is now the natural state of every human from birth. All of us were born into a sinful world that became sinful in Adam. What was once natural for the first two human beings (perfect righteousness at every moment) is now gone from the earth. There is no one righteous, not even one, as scripture says.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Do you really think God created man to reveal his own glory? Wow, do you have a low opinion of God.

Because you seem to think that God created the world for the applause of his creatures.

Quote:
I think God created man to share in his love.

But yet God loves everyone, giving each one everything he has without any expected payback…

Quote:
And he gave man free will because love must be freely given. Sin is man exercising his free will in opposition to God.

Do you deny that you have the freedom to chose to do good or evil?

Quote:
Wow, you also have a really low opinion of man, who was afterall, created in the image of God. When man sins, its a failure on his part - something to be ashamed of, . not something to be condoned as perfectly natural…

Again, you have a very low opinion of man. Perhaps its a function of those that you hang out with. I think that most people try to do the right thing - some don’t for sure, but most people are decent, law abiding people, not the criminals you describe who naturally do evil .

 

[ifonefun]

Because you seem to think that God created the world for the applause of his creatures.

I think that He created the whole universe for His own glory. But you seem to think that makes God wrong or evil. Can you explain why?

But yet God loves everyone, giving each one everything he has without any expected payback…

Yes, God loves everyone, but He doesn’t love everyone in exactly the same way, and His love is expressed in different ways with each person. Some people have to struggle with poverty while others attain enormous wealth. Some people are rather plain looking and others are attractive, and so on. Some people will never hear about Jesus or Christianity during their entire life on earth. God is free to make each person as He wishes, for His purposes.

Do you deny that you have the freedom to chose to do good or evil?

I don’t deny that we all have the freedom to choose what we desire, but what fallen unrepentant sinners desire is not good. So, there is no real freedom in such people making their own choices when their choices are evil. A drug addict will choose his or her drug of choice, but that doesn’t mean that he or she is truly free.

Again, you have a very low opinion of man. Perhaps its a function of those that you hang out with. I think that most people try to do the right thing - some don’t for sure, but most people are decent, law abiding people, not the criminals you describe who naturally do evil .

Then how do you explain the fact that everywhere in the world, people are still making the same kinds of mistakes that human beings have made for thousands of years? Do people still lie, steal, commit adultery, murder? Do they still have lust in their hearts? Is God supposed to have a high opinion of fallen mankind when He sees what humans still do? I think that God is not impressed by mankind in the least. This is the reason that we all need Jesus.

 

[paul_c]

I think that He created the whole universe for His own glory. But you seem to think that makes God wrong or evil. Can you explain why?

Why does God need to do something for his Glory. It makes him seem needy.

Yes, God loves everyone, but He doesn’t love everyone in exactly the same way, and His love is expressed in different ways with each person. Some people have to struggle with poverty while others attain enormous wealth. Some people are rather plain looking and others are attractive, and so on. Some people will never hear about Jesus or Christianity during their entire life on earth. God is free to make each person as He wishes, for His purposes.

This is all true. God makes everyone for a purpose and that person is given everythiing he or she needs to carry out that purpose.

I don’t deny that we all have the freedom to choose what we desire, but what fallen unrepentant sinners desire is not good. So, there is no real freedom in such people making their own choices when their choices are evil. A drug addict will choose his or her drug of choice, but that doesn’t mean that he or she is truly free.

Everyone has the opportunity to repent, right up until the moment of their death. No one’s choices are only to do evil. Some drug addicts recover, after all.

Then how do you explain the fact that everywhere in the world, people are still making the same kinds of mistakes that human beings have made for thousands of years?

Because the same temptations exist -

Do people still lie, steal, commit adultery, murder?

The vast majority of people have never murdered or committed adultery. Very few people steal or lie as a matter of course.

Do they still have lust in their hearts?

Lust is a temptation that most people do not act on.

Is God supposed to have a high opinion of fallen mankind when He sees what humans still do?

God is truly grieved by sinners. Are you familiar with the miracles at Fatima in 1917? If not, read through this website. It describes exactly what you are saying. And note what the three children were able to accomplish by their prayers…ewtn.com/fatima/index.htm

I think that God is not impressed by mankind in the least. This is the reason that we all need Jesus

Yes, we all need Jesus. He is the light of the world and he not only sacrificed himself to reconcile us to God, but in doing so, he demonstrated perfect love as an example for us to follow. Jesus’s sacrifice provided the necessary grace for us to overcome original sin. While we still have sinful tendencies, they can be overcome by the grace of God - not covered over, overcome…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Salvation is an extremely important matter for us sinners. So, what is the definition of “good” as you use it when you say this? Is it the same thing as PERFECT? If not, then how “good” is good enough for God, and how do we know how much “goodness” is required of us for salvation?

God determines if the individual was good enough at the Final Judgment. It is not equivalent to perfect though, else the provision for forgiveness would be nonsensical.

I said that it is through our God-given faith that we lay hold of the grace of justification, not by our good works. I provided some verses that tell us this. But now you say that it isn’t biblical?

You’re changing subjects. Re-read what I said (which is what you quoted).