A simple question about Islam

[Hypatia]

In Christianity, God is not mere Creator but a Father for those who believe thus Christians can call God daddy, papa or abba which is an abomination to Islam. Therefore there is big difference in the relationship between God and humans according to both religions respectively.

I have already pointed out twice, in this thread, that God is Love in Islam. It is, for instance, one of the divine names mentioned in the Qur’an.

So, to say that God creates, is to say that God acts out of Love because God is Love. Just as God is the Being of beings, without which there is nothing, the very power by which being is called out of non-existence is love (on which Ibn’ Arabi offers perhaps the most profound meditations). And not only does Love bring us into existence, it is the life of God by which we are made one with God, since the whole purpose of the creature is tawhid or ‘oneing’ or union with God. Our lives are nothing else than a lover seeking union with their Beloved.

The only “big difference” I see between Christianity and Islam on this matter is that Islam believes everyone rests directly in the divine love, which calls out to them immediately and is their immediate relationship to God, while Christianity places someone between the creature and the “Father” (the distinction between an immediate and mediate relationship that was noted a couple of times early in the thread).

 

[Reuben_J]

I have already pointed out twice, in this thread, that God is Love in Islam. It is, for instance, one of the divine names mentioned in the Qur’an.

So, to say that God creates, is to say that God acts out of Love because God is Love. Just as God is the Being of beings, without which there is nothing, the very power by which being is called out of non-existence is love (on which Ibn’ Arabi offers perhaps the most profound meditations). And not only does Love bring us into existence, it is the life of God by which we are made one with God, since the whole purpose of the creature is tawhid or ‘oneing’ or union with God. Our lives are nothing else than a lover seeking union with their Beloved.

The only “big difference” I see between Christianity and Islam on this matter is that Islam believes everyone rests directly in the divine love, which calls out to them immediately and is their immediate relationship to God, while Christianity places someone between the creature and the “Father” (the distinction between an immediate and mediate relationship that was noted a couple of times early in the thread).

I don’t dispute that Islam also believes that God is love. In the Bible, it is mentioned that God is love (1 Jn 4:8). That’s not my point really. I was saying that Christians see God as a Father, like human father and a relationship that is based on except that God is a perfect Father. Islam does not accept that God is a Father.

God as a loving Creator which we both believe does not denote that God is not love. Christians understand that but they would miss the greater gift of God if they do not understand God as a Father.

God calls us by names and He says, " You are precious … and glorious, and … I love you". The awesomeness of this is that God actually says that and we are to live as what He says, that is, a precious, glorious, and loved by God. Once you understand that and begin to have that relationship with God, we can only be filled with the love of God which would be reflected in our own being and how we see the world. It becomes the principle in how we live our lives.

Islamic’s love does not have this factor simply because they do not believe that God is a father. Therefore they merely see God as a loving and merciful Creator. Well, we can be a creator in the things we created and we can be the owner of our properties. No matter how good an owner we are, we can never be like a father to them.

 

[Hypatia]

I was saying that Christians see God as a Father, like human father and a relationship that is based on except that God is a perfect Father. Islam does not accept that God is a Father.

In the contemporary context, Islamic reservations about “Father” language has to do with Christian language about the “Trinity”. It is a mistake to interpret those reservations as somehow lessening the intimacy between God and humanity. Persons hold a unique place in creation precisely because we are that in creation by which God is loved and known by creation; we are that by which the creation is personal. God is the Beloved Truth of that personal creation.

God calls us by names and He says, " You are precious … and glorious, and … I love you". The awesomeness of this is that God actually says that and we are to live as what He says, that is, a precious, glorious, and loved by God. Once you understand that and begin to have that relationship with God, we can only be filled with the love of God which would be reflected in our own being and how we see the world. It becomes the principle in how we live our lives.

The above seems like a perfectly good description of tawhid. As a popular hadith says, “When [the creature] loves Me, I am the hearing through which it hears, the sight through which it sees, the hand through which it holds, and the foot through which it walks.” When we surrender ourselves in love to Love, Love becomes transparent as the life of creation itself.

 

[Reuben_J]

In the contemporary context, Islamic reservations about “Father” language has to do with Christian language about the “Trinity”. It is a mistake to interpret those reservations as somehow lessening the intimacy between God and humanity. Persons hold a unique place in creation precisely because we are that in creation by which God is loved and known by creation; we are that by which the creation is personal. God is the Beloved Truth of that personal creation.

Thanks for telling me that as I thought from the many dialogues that I had with Muslims, the objection to Father God originates from the Quran where it mentions that God has no father or mother. I hope you are speaking for the other Muslims on this. BTW, the word Trinity is not found in the Bible but father is.

You lost me there about ‘personal creation’. I take it that this applies to humans and not other creations. And what is God the beloved truth of personal creation? We don’t deny that God created.

The above seems like a perfectly good description of tawhid. As a popular hadith says, “When [the creature] loves Me, I am the hearing through which it hears, the sight through which it sees, the hand through which it holds, and the foot through which it walks.” When we surrender ourselves in love to Love, Love becomes transparent as the life of creation itself.

You may not notice it but the tawhid mentioned is a far cry from what I was saying or what the Bible teaches on this.

I would move on to say that humans cannot love God the way God wants him to. This is the irony of God in Christianity asking humans to love him and love one another. In fact humans do not love God and do not have the capacity to love God that way. It says God loves us first and God chooses us, not that we choose Him.

Humans can only love God with the love he wants to unless God Himself helps humans to do that and changes them for them to be able to do that. That love is as exhibited by Jesus and the other aspect of God (for lack of better word at this stage), the Holy Spirit can empower humans to love the way Jesus loves. And we can love the way Jesus loves only if we believe in him because what he has and done will be given to us. For that to happen, we must see and accept God as a Father as God is the Father of Jesus.

I realize the thin difference between what you said and mine but nevertheless there is the difference because the theological force of God as a Father does not mean a love to be merely expressed as that of a father and a son but rather the real relationship between the two.

 

[LtTony]

In the contemporary context, Islamic reservations about “Father” language has to do with Christian language about the “Trinity”. It is a mistake to interpret those reservations as somehow lessening the intimacy between God and humanity.

I appreciate what you are saying. I assumed as much for some time, at least in the “contemporary context” you mention.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father#Islam

But the concepts of “Father/Creator/God” and “Father first person in the Trinity” have some distinctions in Christianity. I mean, no one would mistake muslims for trinitarians if they saw themselves as the children of God. How does the Quran evoke the intimacy between God in man, similar to the Bible’s a father and His children?

I could be wrong, but didn’t Jews – who preceded both christians and muslims – see God as father?
hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Father/father.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father

Ran across this:
“Muslim-friendly Bibles”
wnd.com/2012/01/new-bible-yanks-father-jesus-as-son-of-god/

 

[Hypatia]

Thanks for telling me that as I thought from the many dialogues that I had with Muslims, the objection to Father God originates from the Quran where it mentions that God has no father or mother. I hope you are speaking for the other Muslims on this. BTW, the word Trinity is not found in the Bible but father is.

It is certainly true, and part of the original emphasis on the rejection of God as Father stems from anti-pagan concerns. Much as you find the Hebrew scriptures rejecting the idea that God has a consort, so also you find the Qur’an rejecting pagan conceptions that would involve the divine in partnership, marriage or procreation insofar as it implies finitude and division in the divine.

But Christian ideas about the Trinity also come in for heavy critique as well (see my signature, I suppose) on a parallel front. I cannot see how the language of “Father” can be rehabilitated at the moment when it associated so firmly with the Trinity and the implication that God is Father because God has a Son. The rejection of the One implied therein is too stark as far as Muslims are concerned.

You may not notice it but the tawhid mentioned is a far cry from what I was saying or what the Bible teaches on this.

I would move on to say that humans cannot love God the way God wants him to. This is the irony of God in Christianity asking humans to love him and love one another. In fact humans do not love God and do not have the capacity to love God that way. It says God loves us first and God chooses us, not that we choose Him.

Humans can only love God with the love he wants to unless God Himself helps humans to do that and changes them for them to be able to do that. That love is as exhibited by Jesus and the other aspect of God (for lack of better word at this stage), the Holy Spirit can empower humans to love the way Jesus loves. And we can love the way Jesus loves only if we believe in him because what he has and done will be given to us. For that to happen, we must see and accept God as a Father as God is the Father of Jesus.

The differences seem only to do with Christian accounts of human sinfulness and incapacity. Moving past the account of sin, where there is genuine disagreement – there are no parallels, in Islam, to an “original sin” that renders human freedom incapable – I would agree that we only love because God loves first. The thrust of the hadith quoted above is that when we love God we discover that it was God who was our whole life all along. The Trinitarian account of love may have some unique inflections, but if the Trinitarian language is reduced to an account of the One then what I hear you saying is that God reveals God’s love and, in so doing, empowers persons to love. To which I say, Amen!

 

[Hypatia]

How does the Quran evoke the intimacy between God in man, similar to the Bible’s a father and His children?

The best place to look may well be the Arabic word “ilah”, which is typically translated “God” (e.g., The Shahadah: “There is no god (ilah), but God (Allah).”). The term is capable of very flexible usage from making things into idols, to making oneself into an idol, or, properly understood, it refers to God. Loosely, it means something like one’s ultimate concern. Etymologically, “ilah” has overtones not only of “one which is exalted”, but also, most importantly for our purposes, “one who is adored”. The idea of love is built right into the Arabic word for God to a certain degree. So we could very loosely translate the Shahada as “There is none adored, but God.”

This is widely exploited by Arabic, Persian, and Urdu religious poetry where the relation between the Lover and the Beloved is a ubiquitous theme (pick up anything by Rumi, for example), and allows for exploration of the idea of the union through love, or tawhid.

I could be wrong, but didn’t Jews – who preceded both christians and muslims – see God as father?

I could be wrong too, but is this really a prominent theme in the Hebrew scriptures? Does it appear more than a few times in the prophets?

I could also be wrong on this point as well, but I don’t recall “father” language in prominent 20th c. Jewish thinkers like Rosenzwieg or Levinas. I certainly don’t recall Jewish friends using “father” as a way of talking about God in religious conversations. But, apart from a few figures, but knowledge of contemporary Judaism is more limited, so I would be curious if others had information on the topic.

I suppose your point is that it is used at all, but, given Christian usage, it seems a word that is best avoided.

 

[principio]

There are only two similarities Catholics and Muslims have in common that matter, both practice:

1. Love
2. Hate

 

[Sam_777]

The deepest need in everyone’s heart is simply to be loved. It doesn’t matter how tough we are, how self made we are, whether we are the Pope or the President, what we need is to be loved. Unless we get that basic need filled, we will try to fill that need with other things and therefore can never truly love as how God loves.

 

[dolphinlove]

, Allah in Islam created human being to just worship Him, while GOD in the Bible shared His love with the human being…

 

[dolphinlove]

I don’t dispute that Islam also believes that God is love. In the Bible, it is mentioned that God is love (1 Jn 4:8). That’s not my point really. I was saying that Christians see God as a Father, like human father and a relationship that is based on except that God is a perfect Father. Islam does not accept that God is a Father.

God as a loving Creator which we both believe does not denote that God is not love. Christians understand that but they would miss the greater gift of God if they do not understand God as a Father.

God calls us by names and He says, " You are precious … and glorious, and … I love you". The awesomeness of this is that God actually says that and we are to live as what He says, that is, a precious, glorious, and loved by God. Once you understand that and begin to have that relationship with God, we can only be filled with the love of God which would be reflected in our own being and how we see the world. It becomes the principle in how we live our lives.

Islamic’s love does not have this factor simply because they do not believe that God is a father. Therefore they merely see God as a loving and merciful Creator. Well, we can be a creator in the things we created and we can be the owner of our properties. No matter how good an owner we are, we can never be like a father to them.

 

[PatrickSanDiego]

What are 5 things Catholicism shares in common with Islam?

What are 5 things that are in polar opposition to Islam?

Thanks, I look fwd to your answers.

Sounds like we’re doing your school homework for you.

 

[Reuben_J]

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

The differences seem only to do with Christian accounts of human sinfulness and incapacity. Moving past the account of sin, where there is genuine disagreement – there are no parallels, in Islam, to an “original sin” that renders human freedom incapable – I would agree that we only love because God loves first. The thrust of the hadith quoted above is that when we love God we discover that it was God who was our whole life all along. The Trinitarian account of love may have some unique inflections, but if the Trinitarian language is reduced to an account of the One then what I hear you saying is that God reveals God’s love and, in so doing, empowers persons to love. To which I say, Amen!

I am grateful for your explanation and you seem to be sincere in expressing your thought. I will not touch on the Trinity for now because the discussion on this may become quite complicated and digress from the original intent.

The big contention here is about our understanding on what love is. Both Islam and Christianity, as been explained, are a religion of love and that God or Allah is love.

I tried to bring the subject of Christian belief that God is a Father in an attempt to explain especially to a Muslim of our concept of what love is or rather, what God’s love is which we must emulate and practice ourselves no matter how difficult it is to do so.

The simplest way for a Christian to know what God’s love is, is to see how Jesus loved.

This love is unconditional love and self-giving. Jesus died because of his love for humans, he gave his own life for the benefit of humans. Well, at least that is the Christian belief. This love is a love for the enemy; it is a love that is to give the other cheek; it is a love that does not take revenge no matter how much we want to. It is a love that says when we are offended that the offender does not know what they are doing.

In other word that love is called Agape in Greek. You will note that the Greeks have about four majors way in categorizing different types of love - Agape, Eros, Philia and Storge. From my previous discussion with Muslims, they do not believe in Agape love. They are more practical and that there is a limit in how one loves.

A father’s love for his child has no limit. No matter how bad a child is, a father still loves him. Similarly for God. God does not hate and this attribute of God is not found in Islam for there is a situation where Allah of Islam hates.

 

[Sam_777]

The simplest way for a Christian to know what God’s love is, is to see how Jesus loved.

This love is unconditional love and self-giving. Jesus died because of his love for humans, he gave his own life for the benefit of humans. Well, at least that is the Christian belief. This love is a love for the enemy; it is a love that is to give the other cheek; it is a love that does not take revenge no matter how much we want to. It is a love that says when we are offended that the offender does not know what they are doing.

 

[muncaginta]

The second point concerning unconditional love is not silly. Here are quotes from Muslims when I posed this question on a Muslim form.

• “Islamic God is different. To put it in simple terms ; He loves those who do good deeds, He dislikes those who do bad deeds. That is why there is hell. None of this “but God loves us all”, unless people believe hell is for show and that God puts people He loves in hell. You don’t kill 100 people and say “but God still loves me it’s all good”. Just doesn’t work like that in Islam. It’s a very balanced and rational based God.”

In Catholicism, God does not send people to hell. We send ourselves to hell by rejecting God and his will.

• “The ones whom God loves, those are a special set of people–Allah says in the Qur’an in various places that He loves the people who do good, and the people who constantly repent, and the people who purify themselves, for instance. And there are those whom God does not love–those who cause corruption, who disbelieve, and who are unjust, for instance.”

Have you watched ‘‘Zeitgeist 1-2’’? I would like to know your comment on this documentary series…

In Catholicism, God loves the worst sinners and because of his fatherly love he desires that they repent.

Third point: If I understand correctly, Muslims submit to God’s will out of obedience. Catholics submit to God’s will out of love. We submit so we can love and worship him with all our hearts and mind.

Fourth point: I admit I really don’t understand this completely, However, I suspect this co-eternal belief of the Quran is why many Muslims get extremely violent when a Quran is burned.

I am sorry if I offend you. I find Islamic spirituality very hard to understand. I would appreciate any further clarification you can give.

 

[DennisTate]

I read an article recently by Sufi Islamic scholar Dr. Fazlul Islam. I hope that this helps.

SECOND COMING OF JESUS

by Fazlul Islam on Wednesday, August 31, 2011 at 3:47am ·
SECOND COMING OF JESUS

The Christians as well as Muslims believe that Jesus will return at a time close to the end of the world. In Islam, Jesus is considered to be a Prophet and Messenger of God who was sent to guide the Children of Israel with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel. He is considered the Messiah. He is also a word from God and a spirit from Him. He is considered honoured in this world and in the Hereafter, and he is one of those brought nearest to God. The Qur’an, considered by Muslims to be God’s final and authoritative revelation to humankind, mentions Jesus twenty-five times. Islamic tradition and commentaries states that he will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and save mankind from the hell fire. The Hindus, Buddhists and Jews are also believe in the emergence of a saviour of mankind close to the end of the world like Jesus Christ. In Hinduism he is known as the Kalki Avatar, and in Judaism Messiah.

According to Islamic tradition which describes this graphically, Jesus’ descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi, known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the Antichrist and his followers. The autocratic rulers of Middle East like Saddam and Gaddafi who deprived their people from huge oil wealth are considered to be Antichrists. Jesus will exterminate the Antichrists and false messiah.

After the death of Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Jesus’ rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Mankind will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Prophet Mohammad. - (Al-Bukhari, Al-Muslim).

UNIFICATION OF RELIGIONS

Today the Jews or Christians do not recognize any religion except their own. The Hindus and Buddhists believe that all the religions are false except their own. The Muslims do not believe in any religion except Islam. This conflict in religions leads mankind to atheism and doubt in religious beliefs that different religions give differing accounts as to what God is and what God wants; since all the contradictory accounts cannot be correct, many if not all religions must be incorrect. Professor Toynbee in his famous book “An Historian Approach to Religions” refuting this fundamental basis of atheism and doubt in religions said,
“The religions are agreed with one another in holding that God has a personal as well as an impersonal aspect. For Buddhism this personal aspect of super human presence manifested in the Bodhisattvas, is plural for Hinduism, and Christianity the personal of Absolute Reality is triune, for Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Islam it is singular. These differences are momentous, all the same, they perhaps not so significance as the point of agreement. Their common tenet that Absolute Reality or God has a personal aspect governs not only their theory but their aim.”

All the divine religions teach us continued existence of the soul and a transformed physical existence after death. There will be a day of judgment when all humans will be divided between the eternal destinations of Hell and Paradise. The variations which are now observed in the religions, these are actually for different languages, cultures and civilizations when the prophets were appeared and Holy Scriptures were revealed, and due to inadequate preservations which causes many of the original documents to be perished.

The Qur’an not only recognizes its preceding religions but unambiguously witnesses that the founders of these religions were prophets of God. The Holy Qur’an regards their prophethood as part of Islamic faith and orders to honour them like prophet Mohammad, as it has been stated in the following verses of the Holy Qur’an -

“Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him (Allah) do we submit.” - (3: 83).

“There is no doubt that I had sent my messengers to all the communities of mankind all over the world (who were taught) so that they worship only one Lord and are save from ingratitude and sins.”- (16: 36).

According to the Holy Qur’an, there is only one primordial religion which has existed from the beginning of mankind and this has moreover been revealed at regular intervals through prophets. The differences among the religions are due not so much as to difference in revelation as to specific historical factors and in particular, to the peoples distortion of their prophets fundamentally identical teachings. The Holy Qur’an says-

“The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - The which we have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, Jesus; Namely, that ye should remain stead fast in religion, and make no divisions therein…And they became divided only after knowledge reached them,—through selfish envy as between themselves.” - (32: 13-14).

“All of you (prophets) basically belong to one class and I am your Lord. So fear me. But latter on it is the people who were divided in their opinions and have split up religion (according to their choice).”- (22: 52-53).

“We sent not an apostle except to teach in the language his own people, in order to make things clear to them.”- (14: 4).

 

[DennisTate]

I have read articles regarding Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben David who are predicted in Judaism. I have wondered if all that Moshiach ben Yosef is predicted to do would correspond with the final Elijah who has so much to accomplish according to Ecclesiastes chapter 48???!!!

drbo.org/chapter/26048.htm

And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch…Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob.

Could the prediction of the two witnesses of the Apocalypse correspond with these predictions from Judaism and from Islamic Mystical thought!!!

 

[Reuben_J]

I read an article recently by Sufi Islamic scholar Dr. Fazlul Islam. I hope that this helps.

SECOND COMING OF JESUS

by Fazlul Islam on Wednesday, August 31, 2011 at 3:47am ·
SECOND COMING OF JESUS

The Christians as well as Muslims believe that Jesus will return at a time close to the end of the world. In Islam, Jesus is considered to be a Prophet and Messenger of God who was sent to guide the Children of Israel with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel. He is considered the Messiah. He is also a word from God and a spirit from Him. He is considered honoured in this world and in the Hereafter, and he is one of those brought nearest to God. The Qur’an, considered by Muslims to be God’s final and authoritative revelation to humankind, mentions Jesus twenty-five times. Islamic tradition and commentaries states that he will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and save mankind from the hell fire.

Surely the Jesus described above cannot be human. He would be now about 2012 years of age, not living in this world and will come back into the world indefinitely. No human can do that. Even if he is human, the task that he has to do - save mankind from the hell fire - only can be done by God Himself.

 

[mangy_dog]

There are no “simple” questions about Islam.