A Simple Timeline Proves the Early Church was Catholic

[imkingdad]

I tend to agree, if you assume that they still feel confident, to some degree, in the Church’s assessment of what it is. That is, if they think the ship is indeed unsinkable, rather than a kind of Titanic scenario. There would also be the practical problem of how to remain part of the institution without being somehow involved in the abusive behavior.

Bluecoat, Given the sad state of affairs that has existed in the past 50years within your High Holy Anglican Church, Might I be the 1st of many to extend the invitation to leave that cacaphony of Babel & do as may before you have done & come home to the Catholic Church. btw I am truly sorry for the vast turmult that has occurred within your Churches around the world especially since they significantly undermined the attempts at reconciliation that were being pursued for decades.

Good Luck In the Anglican Church. You’ll need it.
Yours in Christ. Vivat Jesus.

 

[Bluegoat]

Bluecoat, Given the sad state of affairs that has existed in the past 50years within your High Holy Anglican Church, Might I be the 1st of many to extend the invitation to leave that cacaphony of Babel & do as may before you have done & come home to the Catholic Church. btw I am truly sorry for the vast turmult that has occurred within your Churches around the world especially since they significantly undermined the attempts at reconciliation that were being pursued for decades.

Good Luck In the Anglican Church. You’ll need it.
Yours in Christ. Vivat Jesus.

Is this a non sequiter, or meant to relate to the discussion around the Protestant reformers?

It certainly is a tumult. We’ll see how it turns out eventually, I suppose.

 

[JustaServant]

JustaServant, do you have an idea as to why the books of the New Testament are ordered the way they are, rather than chronoligically? I had always assumed that they were ordered chronologically (at least the Gospels). Thanks for this thread and the timeline post by the way - truly enlightening!

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The catalogue of the Council of Trent arranges the inspired books partly in a topological, partly in a chronological order. In the Old Testament, we have first all the historical books, excepting the two books of the Machabees which were supposed to have been written last of all. These historical books are arranged according to the order of time of which they treat; the books of Tobias, Judith, and Ester, however, occupy the last place because they relate personal history. The body of didactic works occupies the second place in the Canon, being arranged in the order of time at which the writers are supposed to have lived. The third place is assigned to the Prophets, first the four Major and then the twelve Minor Prophets, according to their respective chronological order. The Council follows a similar method in the arrangement of the New- Testament books. The first place is given to the historical books, i.e., the Gospels and the Book of Acts; the Gospels follow the order of their reputed composition. The second place is occupied by the didactic books, the Pauline Epistles preceding the Catholic. The former are enumerated according to the order of dignity of the addresses and according to the importance of the matter treated. Hence results the series: Romans; I, II Corinthians; Galatians; Ephesians; Philippians; Colossians; I, II Thessalonians; I, II Timothy; Titus; Philemon; the Epistle to the Hebrews occupies the last place on account of its late reception into the canon. In its disposition of the Catholic Epistles the Council follows the so- called western order: I, II Peter; I, II, III John; James; Jude; our Vulgate edition follows the oriental order (James; I, II, III, John; Jude) which seems to be based on Galatians 2:9. The Apocalypse occupies in the New Testament the place corresponding to that of the Prophets in the Old Testament.

Now this is curious, because Protestants are relying upon an arrangement of Scripture ordered by the Catholic Church. The challenge of the OP, which Protestants seem to be running away from, is to observe the writings in chronological order. Which puts an entirely different perspective on how the early church thought and what they practiced. Taking with that the non-canonical books written in the first generation, one gets a picture of the early church that was in no way what Protestants envision them to be.

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

Because they are looking at the world through post-enlightenment, post-printing press eyes. I remember overhearing a group of fundamentalists pondering what a church service looked like in the first century. One said 'they probably just met in their homes and had a Bible study. :banghead:

LOL! That would have been pretty tough topull off without a Bible.

We know that early Church worship included the Eucharist and there are ancient altars in the catacombs. Adding 2and 2, it probably resembled the Mass.

 

[ctkrcia]

Because they are looking at the world through post-enlightenment, post-printing press eyes. I remember overhearing a group of fundamentalists pondering what a church service looked like in the first century. One said 'they probably just met in their homes and had a Bible study. :banghead:

This is too funny! Reminds me of a story where several Christians were dicsussing which version of the Bible is the true one. After a while, the discussion became heated. At that time an elderly lady blurted out,
“If the King James Bible was good enough for St. Paul, it’s good enough for me!”

End of discussion.

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

Thank You St. Al, ignorance is not bliss if it leads you away from the TRUTH. Not in the long run. Its a good thing I stirred up all this great conversation. Maybe I am not such a bad person after all. God Bless, Memaw

You’re certainly not. Keep the Faith, Memaw.

 

[RNRobert]

This is too funny! Reminds me of a story where several Christians were dicsussing which version of the Bible is the true one. After a while, the discussion became heated. At that time an elderly lady blurted out, "If the King James Bible was good enough for St. Paul, it’s good enough for me!"End of discussion.

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw: If it ain’t the King James, it ain’t the Bible.

I would have liked to ask the owner of the vehicle what Christians read before the KJV was translated in 1611…

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

This is too funny! Reminds me of a story where several Christians were dicsussing which version of the Bible is the true one. After a while, the discussion became heated. At that time an elderly lady blurted out,
“If the King James Bible was good enough for St. Paul, it’s good enough for me!”

End of discussion.

That’s hilarious, but so typical. SolaScriptura evangelicals are the worst at knowing Church history. Since they largely refuse to even glance at non-Canonical writings, relying soley on the Bible, they are playing with half a deck. They never learn how the ancient writings mesh so well with the NT books,supporting them and clarifying them, bringing them to life in a different way. They really flesh out the story of the early Church.

I think part of the reason for that avoidance of history is that it confirms what most Catholics know: the early Church was Catholic in belief and tradition.: They further support what the Church teaches and has taught since the beginning. The Bible, which in their circles is open to subjective individual (mis) interpretation, is less clear in many areas than these histories. So it can be used, erroneously, to support wrongheaded notions about the Church.

I consider it their loss,really to ignore these great sources that shed light on the story of the early Church.

 

[JustaServant]

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw: If it ain’t the King James, it ain’t the Bible.

I would have liked to ask the owner of the vehicle what Christians read before the KJV was translated in 1611…

There’s a motherlode of crazy ideas coming from KJV-only fundamentalists to keep a shrink in business for years.
“The KJV’ was purified seven times”.
“Jesus IS the KJV Bible”
“The KJV Bible is the Stone cut out without hands (from Daniel)”.
How about singing hymns to the KJV Bible? Or a liturgical-like procession taking a giant styrofoam KJV to the pulpit?
I could go on, but you get the picture…
This is why I stayed with the Jerry Falwell variety of fundamentalists.
They were still wrong, but they weren’t crazy.

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

I’m fairly new to these pages, but I wanted to compliment you on your conversion to Catholicism. I imagine that was a major turn for you, coming from a fundamentalist background. There are so many misunderstandings, misinterpretations and outright untruths about the Catholic Church in that community, I was wondering how you escaped!

I’m curious because my grandchildren are being raised in a fundamentalist environment and are told things like, “Your grandparents don’t know Jesus” because we aren’t of their ilk. You should have seen the look of delight on my granddaughter’s face when she saw me wearing my Catholic crucifix from the Vatican. She cried,“Mommy, Mommy, Pop Pop does know Jesus!”

I can understand there are differences between denominations - or whatever their little church can be called - but what kind of mindset brings on that kind of religious backstabbing within your family? We avoid talking about religion unless they ask something directly and there’s a chance for some apologetics. They try to bait us occasionally, but we usually don’t fall for it. The poor kids are caught in the middle and we have to be diplomatic when they ask us things about God. I’m sure I’ve given the “wrong” answer sometimes, but I have to be true to what I know, being raised Catholic.

Anyway, if you wanted to share any thiughts on the matter, that would be great. And again, welcome home!

 

[paul_c]

I’m fairly new to these pages, but I wanted to compliment you on your conversion to Catholicism. I imagine that was a major turn for you, coming from a fundamentalist background. There are so many misunderstandings, misinterpretations and outright untruths about the Catholic Church in that community, I was wondering how you escaped!

I’m curious because my grandchildren are being raised in a fundamentalist environment and are told things like, “Your grandparents don’t know Jesus” because we aren’t of their ilk. You should have seen the look of delight on my granddaughter’s face when she saw me wearing my Catholic crucifix from the Vatican. She cried,“Mommy, Mommy, Pop Pop does know Jesus!”

I can understand there are differences between denominations - or whatever their little church can be called - but what kind of mindset brings on that kind of religious backstabbing within your family? We avoid talking about religion unless they ask something directly and there’s a chance for some apologetics. They try to bait us occasionally, but we usually don’t fall for it. The poor kids are caught in the middle and we have to be diplomatic when they ask us things about God. I’m sure I’ve given the “wrong” answer sometimes, but I have to be true to what I know, being raised Catholic.

Anyway, if you wanted to share any thiughts on the matter, that would be great. And again, welcome home!

if you read these pages, you will see that roughly half the Catholic apologists on this site, including the director of Apologetics are actually converts. Those that say they swam the Tiber are noting that they are converts…

 

[holy_moly]

if you read these pages, you will see that roughly half the Catholic apologists on this site, including the director of Apologetics are actually converts. Those that say they swam the Tiber are noting that they are converts…

Ive been wondering what all that tiber stuff was about!

 

[E.E.N.S]

if you read these pages, you will see that roughly half the Catholic apologists on this site, including the director of Apologetics are actually converts. Those that say they swam the Tiber are noting that they are converts…

Tiber Swim Team of 2001 here. =)

 

[Tomb54]

I’m fairly new to these pages, but I wanted to compliment you on your conversion to Catholicism. I imagine that was a major turn for you, coming from a fundamentalist background. There are so many misunderstandings, misinterpretations and outright untruths about the Catholic Church in that community, I was wondering how you escaped!

I’m curious because my grandchildren are being raised in a fundamentalist environment and are told things like, “Your grandparents don’t know Jesus” because we aren’t of their ilk. You should have seen the look of delight on my granddaughter’s face when she saw me wearing my Catholic crucifix from the Vatican. She cried,“Mommy, Mommy, Pop Pop does know Jesus!”

I can understand there are differences between denominations - or whatever their little church can be called - but what kind of mindset brings on that kind of religious backstabbing within your family? We avoid talking about religion unless they ask something directly and there’s a chance for some apologetics. They try to bait us occasionally, but we usually don’t fall for it. The poor kids are caught in the middle and we have to be diplomatic when they ask us things about God. I’m sure I’ve given the “wrong” answer sometimes, but I have to be true to what I know, being raised Catholic.

Anyway, if you wanted to share any thiughts on the matter, that would be great. And again, welcome home!

There are a few books out there that might help you like " Fundamentalist born again Catholic" can’t remember author because my daughter has book right now. I am sure otehr would have suggestions but it would help you understand their way of thinking which might help you at least talk across a bridge. Just a thought.

 

[Tomb54]

if you read these pages, you will see that roughly half the Catholic apologists on this site, including the director of Apologetics are actually converts. Those that say they swam the Tiber are noting that they are converts…

If fact I hate to say it but a fair amount of the converts know our faith better than those of us raise Catholics. Growing up during the 70 and 80s did not seem to be a good time to learn our faith very well. Thought I knew a fair amount but still learning alot more here and watching EWTN.

 

[RNRobert]

There are a few books out there that might help you like " Fundamentalist born again Catholic" can’t remember author because my daughter has book right now. I am sure otehr would have suggestions but it would help you understand their way of thinking which might help you at least talk across a bridge. Just a thought.

The book is “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” by David Currie, and it is a good book.

 

[paul_c]

If fact I hate to say it but a fair amount of the converts know our faith better than those of us raise Catholics. Growing up during the 70 and 80s did not seem to be a good time to learn our faith very well. Thought I knew a fair amount but still learning alot more here and watching EWTN.

I agree. I have learned more in the last 4 years than in the previous 45 … The opportunities to learn about the faith have never been greater with the internet and EWTN.

 

[imkingdad]

Is this a non sequiter, or meant to relate to the discussion around the Protestant reformers?

It certainly is a tumult. We’ll see how it turns out eventually, I suppose.

It was more in response to this part of the previous answer & esp. in light of what could be a similar problem for yourself & others at this time.

There would also be the practical problem of how to remain part of the institution without being somehow involved in the abusive behavior.

You are even more aware of the divisiveness, animus & angst within your current institution. Just thought I’d invite you to come try us out, like many others have.
I will pray for you & the Anglican Church that it may somehow come to its senses since a house divided can not stand. Good Luck to You!

 

[imkingdad]

I agree. I have learned more in the last 4 years than in the previous 45 … The opportunities to learn about the faith have never been greater with the internet and EWTN.

As a convert from Happy Heathenism following the light of my Wife I joined the Church after a great deal of investigation & reflection. It boiled down to either being Jewish or if a believed in the Messiah, then Catholic. Some 30 yrs ago.

But Like you Paul, It has just been recently that I once again woke up & saw the need to know more, to love more. Thank God for EWTN, for Catholic Radio, for this & other wonderful Catholic websites, and for the many fine men & women who care enough to share with us their knowledge, their love, their time and their prayers with us.

vivat Jesus

 

[Memaw]

I’m fairly new to these pages, but I wanted to compliment you on your conversion to Catholicism. I imagine that was a major turn for you, coming from a fundamentalist background. There are so many misunderstandings, misinterpretations and outright untruths about the Catholic Church in that community, I was wondering how you escaped!

I’m curious because my grandchildren are being raised in a fundamentalist environment and are told things like, “Your grandparents don’t know Jesus” because we aren’t of their ilk. You should have seen the look of delight on my granddaughter’s face when she saw me wearing my Catholic crucifix from the Vatican. She cried,“Mommy, Mommy, Pop Pop does know Jesus!”

I can understand there are differences between denominations - or whatever their little church can be called - but what kind of mindset brings on that kind of religious backstabbing within your family? We avoid talking about religion unless they ask something directly and there’s a chance for some apologetics. They try to bait us occasionally, but we usually don’t fall for it. The poor kids are caught in the middle and we have to be diplomatic when they ask us things about God. I’m sure I’ve given the “wrong” answer sometimes, but I have to be true to what I know, being raised Catholic.

Anyway, if you wanted to share any thiughts on the matter, that would be great. And again, welcome home!

I have been a Catholic all my life but I’ve had many non-catholic friends over the years and in my personal opinion they are afraid of what they don’t understand, especially after they have been told by their preachers etc. all those falsehoods about the Catholic Faith. One friend , (for 40 years, and she has changed her denomination several times over the years because she didn’t agree with what they were doing), still is not convinced I don’t worship statues. It still comes up in conversations . Some are jealous, I think because they know they don’t have the fullness of truth and they know the problems within the different denominations but to stubborn to really look into the Catholic Faith to see if it is the True Faith. So they find fault. I had a Dr. tell me once that most people who try to find fault with others, have a low opinion of themselves. If one has to lie about others in order to make themselves look good, that’s pretty sad. What about the 8 Commandment???
As Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said, ‘The Truth is the truth even if no one believes it and a lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it.’

As for your grandkids, don’t be surprised if they see thru those lies. continue to set a good example and pray your hearts out for them and they will see thru the lies. I believe the protestant denominations are beginning to implode. They have divided and divided so much they are weakening. The Catholic Church has always been and will always be strong in the face of persecution. Christ promised that. The Holy Spirit will never allow the Catholic Church to teach anything but the fullness of the TRUTH. Someone once said, ‘If the sinners within the Church can’t destroy it, (and they try) then don’t expect those outside the True Church to do it’ That may not be the exact quote but you get the point anyway.
The more I know about the Catholic Church, the more I love it, I see Her strengths and faithfulness to Christ and the Holiness of many of her past and present. I am 72 years old and I learn more every day, I have learned lots just from this thread. It is an exciting journey to walk with Jesus Christ in the very Church HE founded for us and promised would NEVER error. The Catholic Church is 2.000 years old and has witnessed all of Christian History and still stands strong and Holy in our modern mixed up world. Faithful to all the Truths Jesus has given us. Welcome Home and God Bless all who are coming home or have already come home. Memaw