A single Biblical passage to undermine all of mormonism.

[defender4Christ]

I have always wondered why that mormons beileve that their god has a god and that he was a man just like us. I really wonder how people can beileve stuff like that, even though they call themselves Christain, when they are not.

 

[Paul_G]

(although Gordon Hinckley waffled on this when he was publicly interviewed)

No waffle, we just don’t make more of it than it is. The critics teach more about it than us.

 

[Paul_G]

papist1:

paul will continue to play ignorant,

I’m sorry you feel that I’m ignorant. However, many times on this board members throw out questions and accusations without any more effort than to copy and paste from our critics, leaving whoever answers to spend a good deal of time writing an answer.
I believe that when discussing matters of scripture I should at least know what you are trying to say.

begging the question to try to stretch out this obvious text into something it is not.

You mean it may not agree with your reading of the passage. I’m sure it won’t. Since the Server was down again I will have to wait until I have time later on this evening to contribute what I think.

 

[arieh0310]

Paul G:

No waffle, we just don’t make more of it than it is. The critics teach more about it than us.

Uh, dude, read some of the quotes above. Or check out this link or this sermon by Joseph Smith. I know that the LDS church hired a professional marketing company a few years back to help it appear more Christian but no amount of marketing will erase 150 years of teachings of God’s own progression to diety.

 

[Casen]

PaulDupre:

The modern discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the Copper Scroll which contains the entire book of Isaiah, puts the final nail in the coffin of the LDS lie that the bible was corrupted. The Copper Scroll’s Isaiah (from circa 140 BC) is exactly the Isaiah we have now. No corruption, no deletions, no additions, no “plain and precious parts” missing.

R.I.P. Mormon Church

It’s funny you would mention this. I actually studied the Dead Sea Scrolls at Hebrew University in Jerusalem some years ago. Interestingly, there were items in them found in our Book of Abraham and also the Book of Mormon but NOT in the current Old Testament. Jewish scholars finally had no choice but to classify some of them as written by a unique Jewish sect since they didn’t match current scripture exactly. Anyway, I found it all fascinating and additional evidence that Joseph Smith was who he said he was. One Jewish Rabbi once jokingly remarked to me that the so-called Jewish sect must have been Mormon since Joseph Smith’s writings kept showing up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. If anyone is interested I’ll see if I can dig out my old notes.

 

[arieh0310]

Casen:

It’s funny you would mention this. I actually studied the Dead Sea Scrolls at Hebrew University in Jerusalem some years ago. Interestingly, there were items in them found in our Book of Abraham and also the Book of Mormon but NOT in the current Old Testament. Jewish scholars finally had no choice but to classify some of them as written by a unique Jewish sect since they didn’t match current scripture exactly. Anyway, I found it all fascinating and additional evidence that Joseph Smith was who he said he was. One Jewish Rabbi once jokingly remarked to me that the so-called Jewish sect must have been Mormon since Joseph Smith’s writings kept showing up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. If anyone is interested I’ll see if I can dig out my old notes.

Oh boy, more esoteric nonsense to distract from the real question. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been an embarassment to the LDS church:
Mormon apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of Brigham Young University, had to admit that the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the Book of Mormon:

" After reading the Scrolls very carefully, I come to the conclusion that there is not a line in them that suggests that their writers knew the Gospel as understood by Latter-day Saints. In fact, there are a few passages that seem to prove the contrary…

We should be especially interested in the light the Isaiah scroll throws on the problem of the Isaiah text in the Book of Mormon. I have compared in some detail the text of the scroll with its parallels in the Book of Mormon text. This tedious task has revealed that **the scroll seldom agrees with the departures of the Book of Mormon text from that of the conventional Masoretic text of Isaiah and consequently the Authorized Version**.... The Isaiah scroll is of relatively little use to Latter-day Saints as showing the antiquity of the text of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon.... **The Scrolls undoubtedly contribute much to the history of Judaism and Christianity, and specialists of the Old and New Testaments are properly much concerned with them**...."

Back to the original question, can any Mormon stay on topic and answer these verses in Isaiah?

 

[majick275]

Of course they can’t/won’t. If you believed that you were an ebryonic God on your way to infinite, eternal increase how much time/effort would you spend on things that might disprove your beliefs?

You would probably be very motivated to complete your earthly “apprenticeship” so you could get to your celestial harem and start creating worlds without end.

 

[alterserver_07]

They can’t answer the passages. I bet an answer from a missionary or someone like that would be that the Bible is translated wrong, that the evil Catholics changed it or that it is true, as Casen has been saying in other post that they beleive in one God, like us.

 

[alterserver_07]

You know the other funny thing is that the Book of Mormon also says that there is only one God and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one! Bible and there own BoM and yet they teach something else.

 

[Tmaque]

Casen:

It’s funny you would mention this. I actually studied the Dead Sea Scrolls at Hebrew University in Jerusalem some years ago. Interestingly, there were items in them found in our Book of Abraham and also the Book of Mormon but NOT in the current Old Testament. Jewish scholars finally had no choice but to classify some of them as written by a unique Jewish sect since they didn’t match current scripture exactly. Anyway, I found it all fascinating and additional evidence that Joseph Smith was who he said he was. One Jewish Rabbi once jokingly remarked to me that the so-called Jewish sect must have been Mormon since Joseph Smith’s writings kept showing up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. If anyone is interested I’ll see if I can dig out my old notes.

Casen,

I would be interested in what you found.

 

[Tmaque]

The tone some of these posts are taking are frankly disturbing. Enough with the sarcasm and condemnation. We have an opportunity here(that unfortunately rarely occurs in normal life) to share our faith with those from a different religion. I believe we can do that much more effectively with a spirit of humility and love than with high minded self righteousness. Let’s try to remember Christ’s words, “Judge not lest ye be judged”.

 

[stillsearching]

Casen:

It’s funny you would mention this. I actually studied the Dead Sea Scrolls at Hebrew University in Jerusalem some years ago. Interestingly, there were items in them found in our Book of Abraham and also the Book of Mormon but NOT in the current Old Testament. Jewish scholars finally had no choice but to classify some of them as written by a unique Jewish sect since they didn’t match current scripture exactly. Anyway, I found it all fascinating and additional evidence that Joseph Smith was who he said he was. One Jewish Rabbi once jokingly remarked to me that the so-called Jewish sect must have been Mormon since Joseph Smith’s writings kept showing up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. If anyone is interested I’ll see if I can dig out my old notes.

Casen, I would be more interested in hearing a Jewish RAbbi say that he found Joseph smith’s writings in the Dead Sea Scroll. That would make more sense than your notes. I’m sorry Casen, but I simply believe you heard and read what you wanted to hear and read.

 

[PaulDupre]

Paul G:

Refresh my memory what do we say about Isaiah?

The Mormon Church has always maintained that the Bible is hopelessly corrupt and untrustworthy:

1 Nephi 13:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

The above passage claims that the bible we have now is not the same bible written by the prophets and apostles. Many of the “plain and precious parts” were taken away by the “great and abominable Church”. Why? “that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.” (1 Ne:13:27)

Verse 29 states that those who believe the bible with the plain and precious parts deliberately removed by the great and abominable church stumble so that Satan has great power over them.

Continued…

 

[PaulDupre]

Bible corruption continued…

What do the modern LDS prophets and apostles say?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote of

“the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text”
(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg. 53).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., popular LDS author and son of the tenth president of the church, said

“The early ‘Apostate Fathers’ did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from the Biblical text” (Religious Truths Defined, p.175).

Apostle Mark E. Peterson casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible and states forcefully that the corruption was intentional:

“Many insertions were made, some of them ‘slanted’ for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated”
(As Translated Correctly, p.4).

“It is evident then that many of the ‘plain and precious’ things were omitted from the Bible by failure to choose all of the authentic books for inclusion, and by deliberate changes, deletions and forgeries …”
(As Translated Correctly, p.14).

The encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Quote:
“Thus, the elements of mistranslation, incompleteness, and other errors weaken the Bible”
(Encyclopedia of Mormonism , Vol. 1, Bible).

Again we can see from this small sample of quotes how the conviction that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy starts with The Book of Mormon (“the most correct book on earth” and “the keystone of our religion”) and continues to pervade Mormon thinking and writing throughout their history.

If the LDS heirarchy is attempting to distance themselves from these teachings in the face of recent evidence that debunks them, all well and good. But do not insult the intelligence of those who lived through these teachings for decades by denying that they were ever authoritatively taught.
Grace to you all,
Paul

 

[stillsearching]

PaulDupre:

The Mormon Church has always maintained that the Bible is hopelessly corrupt and untrustworthy:

1 Nephi 13:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

The above passage claims that the bible we have now is not the same bible written by the prophets and apostles. Many of the “plain and precious parts” were taken away by the “great and abominable Church”. Why? “that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.” (1 Ne:13:27)

Verse 29 states that those who believe the bible with the plain and precious parts deliberately removed by the great and abominable church stumble so that Satan has great power over them.

Continued…

Sooooo, if the Bible is wrong, why are you using it?

 

[PaulDupre]

stillsearching:

Sooooo, if the Bible is wrong, why are you using it?

Perhaps you are confusing me with Paul G.

I am a Catholic who used to be Mormon. I was exposing the consistent teaching of the Mormon Church that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy. As a Catholic, I believe the bible to be the inerrant word of God.

 

[majick275]

I find it somewhat confusing that LDS believe that the KJV Bible is corrupt, that Jospeh Smith corrected it (JST Bible), they quote from the Joseph Smith version in their lesson manuals and various other writings and talks…yet they still claim the KJV as one of their “standard works”. Why don’t they switch to what they believe to be teh more doctrinally correct version? (and don’t tell me it wasn’t finished because I have a copy of it)

 

[papist1]

because they know that they cannot get people to convert while using a totally foreign translation of scripture.

since they prey upon lukewarm christians who don’t really know their faith anyway, they rely upon the KJV which is certainly the most widely known model of scripture in the modern world, and therefore can much more easily make themselves out to LOOK like Christians and therefore have a more acceptable appearance.

if they used the faulty JSV of scripture, they certainly would not get far.

 

[majick275]

You know I don’t think that he changed that much. In any case, if we were to accept that only the “standard works” of the LDS church is “doctrine” then the only “plain and precious things” missing from KJV that are important would be the portions of Genesis and Matthew that are contained in their Pearl of Great Price.

I find this “book of Moses” especially confusing in this context as it appears to contradict their book of Abraham on this very subject (Only one God reference in Isaiah). This book of Moses refers to God creating the earth yet Abraham consistently says “the Gods” throughout the creation narrative. It seems to me that at some point in time Joseph Smith switched from a belief in one God (or at least a conventional view of the Trinity) to this infinite Gods, each with worlds without end whose august company we can potentially join.

I wonder how many Mormons (if any) believe that Joseph Smith has become one of these “Gods”.

 

[Casen]

arieh0310:

Back to the original question, can any Mormon stay on topic and answer these verses in Isaiah?

Gosh, excuse me but I wasn’t the one that brought up the Dead Sea Scrolls; it was PaulDupre and I was just responding.

Is it just me or has the board become a lot less friendly lately??

Regarding the original thread question there are a few possible explanations I can think of. The first is what has already been mentioned which is the “corrupt scriptures” argument, which, of course, can be used whenever something shows up that we can’t explain. I try to avoid using the argument because it seems like a copout.

The second argument is that this scripture is for US from OUR perspective. In other words, FOR US there is only ONE GOD. To me this seems to be what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. Of course, he may be referring to the heathen Gods but either way my point is the same. Did the Great Flood cover the whole earth? Maybe not but from Noah’s perspective it did. So that’s one possibility.

The third possible explanation is that the scripture is exactly correct, that our God is the only GOD (big G) and whatever it means for us become “son’s of God” as mentioned in the Bible and become LIKE him (little g – god’s) and inherit all that He has, as Christ told us we could - we will never be a God (big G) like He is, hence, Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none. In any case, every Christian has to reconcile Isaiah 43:10 with Christ’s words, where he said:

1. We could become ONE with Christ just has Christ is ONE with The Father.
2. Become “Son’s of God”, children of a King, inheriting “All that the Father hath”.
3. “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

This argument would seem to fit. We can somehow become “like” God all Christians must agree because the Bible teaches us this. What exactly that means we don’t know.