A single Biblical passage to undermine all of mormonism.

[honeybear]

Casen:

Gosh, excuse me but I wasn’t the one that brought up the Dead Sea Scrolls; it was PaulDupre and I was just responding.

Is it just me or has the board become a lot less friendly lately??

Regarding the original thread question there are a few possible explanations I can think of. The first is what has already been mentioned which is the “corrupt scriptures” argument, which, of course, can be used whenever something shows up that we can’t explain. I try to avoid using the argument because it seems like a copout.

The second argument is that this scripture is for US from OUR perspective. In other words, FOR US there is only ONE GOD. To me this seems to be what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. Of course, he may be referring to the heathen Gods but either way my point is the same. Did the Great Flood cover the whole earth? Maybe not but from Noah’s perspective it did. So that’s one possibility.

The third possible explanation is that the scripture is exactly correct, that our God is the only GOD (big G) and whatever it means for us become “son’s of God” as mentioned in the Bible and become LIKE him (little g – god’s) and inherit all that He has, as Christ told us we could - we will never be a God (big G) like He is, hence, Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none. In any case, every Christian has to reconcile Isaiah 43:10 with Christ’s words, where he said:

1. We could become ONE with Christ just has Christ is ONE with The Father.
2. Become “Son’s of God”, children of a King, inheriting “All that the Father hath”.
3. “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

This argument would seem to fit. We can somehow become “like” God all Christians must agree because the Bible teaches us this. What exactly that means we don’t know.

But Casen, most Christians would agree that they cannot become God. They can be like him, but not be him. Unfortunately, when reading the D & C, a case could be made that the Mormons actually do think they will become Gods. this is a problem for most Christians.
Secondly, isn’t it rather silly to reference the Bible to back your claims, when your bible is a creation from the St. James, which is derived from the Catholic Latin Vulgate, which according to LDS, is corrupt? Please explain.

 

[Casen]

honeybear:

Secondly, isn’t it rather silly to reference the Bible to back your claims, when your bible is a creation from the St. James, which is derived from the Catholic Latin Vulgate, which according to LDS, is corrupt? Please explain.

We don’t believe the Bible to be perfect as it has been translated many times but we believe it’s MOSTLY correct and hence we use it and are encouraged to read and study it regularly. I don’t understand your reasoning that if something isn’t absolutely perfect I shouldn’t be reading it.

 

[arieh0310]

Casen:

The third possible explanation is that the scripture is exactly correct, that our God is the only GOD (big G) and whatever it means for us become “son’s of God” as mentioned in the Bible and become LIKE him (little g – god’s) and inherit all that He has, as Christ told us we could - we will never be a God (big G) like He is, hence, Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none. In any case, every Christian has to reconcile Isaiah 43:10 with Christ’s words, where he said:

1. We could become ONE with Christ just has Christ is ONE with The Father.
2. Become “Son’s of God”, children of a King, inheriting “All that the Father hath”.
3. “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

This argument would seem to fit. We can somehow become “like” God all Christians must agree because the Bible teaches us this. What exactly that means we don’t know.

If you believe that then you are heterodox to your own faith. LDS doctrine clearly states that God progressed to Godhood, that He was once a mortal, finite man.

Jesus in John 10:34 is referring back to Psalm 82 which is talking about the judges of Israel at the time who had received a commission from God to exercise the divine prerogative of judgment on his behalf. The psalm is actually a condemnation of the judges for not exercising their responsibility faithfully, thus corresponding both to the condemnation of these Jewish leaders in John and to Jesus as the true judge.

Also, your comment about becoming sons of God is also heterodox. Christians believe that we become sons of God by adoption (which scripture makes clear), whereas the LDS position is that we are sons by nature, that we pre-existed in heaven as literaly procreated sons of God and some godess mother.

 

[PaulDupre]

Casen:

1. Become “Son’s of God”, children of a King, inheriting “All that the Father hath”.

It says that we can inherit all that the Father HAS, not all that He IS.

Huge difference.

Grace to you,
Paul

 

[Tom_Govern]

I am late in commenting on this thread but I have read postings and would like to comment. The bottom line is that there is no good Mormon argument to this (or much of the other Isaiah) passage(s). There is no good Mormon argument to other inconsistancies between Mormon doctrine and Scripture (eternal marriage, baptism for the dead, etc.). Ironically there is no “scriptural” basis even if you include the Book of Mormon!!

They do not care.

All of you who make these areguments need to understand that they (Mormons) do not care about that. They only care that their beliefs make them feel good.

I have wasted countless apologetic arguments on missionaries and adult Mormons only to have them fall back on “I know my church is true because I prayed about it”.

I would love to here from a Mormon who will respond directly to the question of where their unique beliefs are supported in the Bible or in their own Book of Mormon!

I have asked many without a response to date.

I have a list ready if there is a reply.

Tom Govern

 

[Brad_Haas]

Casen, I’d sure like to know what from the BoA and the BoM was in the Dead Sea Scrolls, too.

 

[arieh0310]

Brad Haas:

Casen, I’d sure like to know what from the BoA and the BoM was in the Dead Sea Scrolls, too.

You will note that he said that he would look for his notes. I hope that he can get us links to the source material and not just his translations. JS may have been able to pull that off but I ain’t gonna believe uncorroborated translations.

 

[Brad_Haas]

Well, I’d take either one; either could be verified and/or compared with other professionals’ findings.

 

[claydoc33]

Paul G:

No waffle, we just don’t make more of it than it is. The critics teach more about it than us.

EXACTLY. your church wouldn’t want to teach on something that disproves it. and i don’t think you guys make any of it for what it is… it seems pretty obvious to me that God is the one and only God that existence will ever know.

 

[claydoc33]

are mormons confusing godhood with glorified bodies, possibly? i mean if that woulda been a first misconception, it coulda had a snowball effect.

 

[Paul_G]

EXACTLY. your church wouldn’t want to teach on something that disproves it.

I don’t believe in Church doctrine we teach that it is true or untrue. Yes, there have been some expound it their writings, because I’m sure that it makes perfect sense to them. I must say that it makes sense to me as well. That doesn’t mean I completely understand it, or how it all worked, but I am willing to allow the concept.

Whether I believe it to be true or not, it is not essential for me to believe or accept it as true for my salvation. It is an interesting bit of information given by someone who I believe to be inspired by Our Father in Heaven. Scriptures do not give us a clear and precise picture of how things proceed before our Father in Heaven in His Kingdom. What is said, I believe, is that we look through a glass which is dark, and that we can not even imagine what awaits us, and that Heavenly Father’s ways are not our ways.

I think many people’s preconceptions cloud their ability to accept a possibility that does not square with their strongly entrenched traditions. Jesus taught that we must become like little children, I believe that it is only in this condition we are able to hear and accept the things of the Spirit.

it seems pretty obvious to me that God is the one and only God that existence will ever know.

Well and fine, I respect your believe in this respect I just don’t share it. I’m sure that we both can supply chapter and verse which supports our separate views
I believe that scripture allows me to believe that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct personages. If the scriptures allow it, is quite possible that Heavenly Father allows it as well.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

PaulDupre:

Perhaps you are confusing me with Paul G.

I am a Catholic who used to be Mormon. I was exposing the consistent teaching of the Mormon Church that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy. As a Catholic, I believe the bible to be the inerrant word of God.

Paul,
As a former Mormon, you know that LDS believe in the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon and that they go hand in hand and are of equal importance, since they both testify of Jesus Christ.

Majick275,
Are you confusing Mormons with Muslims? You keep mentioning harems, and we don’t have any harems in our religion. So I guess you are mixed up about that. And if that, maybe there are other things you are confused about. Sorry, couldn’t resist

Honeybear,
We have discussed the LDS belief in God, and that we must try to follow Jesus example that he set for us on earth. As in following the commandments etc. In doing so we do not expect to ever become as God, but must keep trying to stay on the path and do our best. It is precisely because we can’t attain this perfection that Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for us by His sacrifice upon the Cross for our sins. It is called the Atonement and it allows us to repent of our sins and keep trying to follow his example until we pass into the next life. If we do our best, we hope to inherit all that God hath.
We will never attain the position of GOD(there is only one God), but as your Saints attain Sainthood, we hope to be able to attain godhood{which is as close to being like God that we can ever hope to be) The difference is that your Saints are not married and you do not believe that marriage is important or continues after death. We do believe that marriage continues and that our families dwell together after the resurrection, provided that all members have been faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The things that Catholics have studied about God and harems are not familiar to me, and I have not studied these things at all. I only study the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. We never discuss anything but the things Jesus Christ taught and we are taught to adher to His teachings to the best of our abilities, with the hope of attaining eternal salvation. In 62 years I have never been taught that I will be a God or Godess, as in replacing or becoming the same as God or Mary. It is only possible to try to be like him. To love one another, teach our children, and do the best we can in all things. We can only hope we pass the test, when the resurrection comes. BJ

 

[majick275]

No I know the difference between Mormons and Muslims. The term “Harem” was used for illustrative puposes but is technically correct in my opinion. LDS doctrine as revealed by “modern prophets” makes it very clear that those who reach the highest degree of celestial glory (eternal increase, exaltation, etc.) will exist in polygamous relationships. i.e. Men in these kingdoms will be “Gods” who will preside over kingdoms and they will have many wives who will bear them many spirit children…thus the term eternal increase. SO…While yes, this doctrine (eternal progression) does not claim that man will ever be equal to God… it is quite clear that it teaches that Man may become as God is now…He (God) will of course also be eternally progressing and thus will be always further ahead of us.

 

[arieh0310]

BJ Colbert:

We will never attain the position of GOD(there is only one God), but as your Saints attain Sainthood, we hope to be able to attain godhood{which is as close to being like God that we can ever hope to be) The difference is that your Saints are not married and you do not believe that marriage is important or continues after death. We do believe that marriage continues and that our families dwell together after the resurrection, provided that all members have been faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
…In 62 years I have never been taught that I will be a God or Godess, as in replacing or becoming the same as God or Mary. It is only possible to try to be like him. To love one another, teach our children, and do the best we can in all things. We can only hope we pass the test, when the resurrection comes. BJ

Why do Mormons keep trying to sweep the clear and consistant teachings of people becoming gods under the rug? Maybe because it is easily demonstratible heresy. From the lips of your own leaders and prophets:

*Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48:

The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.22, p.125, George Q. Cannon, October 31, 1880:

Every man and every woman who prays unto the Father, who is in the habit of doing so, expresses that desire in his or her prayer--that we may be counted worthy to receive celestial glory and exaltation in the presence of God and the Lamb. ... When we talk about celestial glory, we talk of the condition of endless increase; if we obtain celestial glory in the fullest sense of the word, then we have wives and children in eternity, we have the power of endless lives granted unto us, the power of propagation that will endure through all eternity, all being fathers and mothers in eternity; fathers of fathers, and mothers of mothers, kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and shall I say more? Yes, all becoming gods.

Milton R. Hunter, Pearl of Great Price Commentary, p.144-145:

Later the Prophet Joseph explained what the revelation [D&C 132] meant by the statement, "which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." He pointed out that the Gods were to be parents of spirit-children just as our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were the parents of the people of this earth. Following are the words of the Prophet:

    Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, ...they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the Priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.*

And I can go on and on. As to your marriage question we do honor marriage but we also listen to our Lord when He says:

Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Matthew 22:29-30

 

[PaulDupre]

BJ Colbert:

Paul,
As a former Mormon, you know that LDS believe in the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon and that they go hand in hand and are of equal importance, since they both testify of Jesus Christ.

BJ,
You really don’t know what your chuch teaches, do you?

The Mormon Church has always maintained that the Bible is hopelessly corrupt and untrustworthy:

1 Nephi 13:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

The above passage claims that the bible we have now is not the same bible written by the prophets and apostles. Many of the “plain and precious parts” were taken away by the “great and abominable Church”. Why? “that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.” (1 Ne:13:27)

Verse 29 states that those who believe the bible with the plain and precious parts deliberately removed by the great and abominable church stumble so that Satan has great power over them.

Continued…

---

 

[PaulDupre]

Bible corruption continued…

What do the modern LDS prophets and apostles say?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote of

“the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text”
(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg. 53).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., popular LDS author and son of the tenth president of the church, said

“The early ‘Apostate Fathers’ did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from the Biblical text” (Religious Truths Defined, p.175).

Apostle Mark E. Peterson casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible and states forcefully that the corruption was intentional:

“Many insertions were made, some of them ‘slanted’ for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated”
(As Translated Correctly, p.4).

“It is evident then that many of the ‘plain and precious’ things were omitted from the Bible by failure to choose all of the authentic books for inclusion, and by deliberate changes, deletions and forgeries …”
(As Translated Correctly, p.14).

The encyclopedia of Mormonism:

“Thus, the elements of mistranslation, incompleteness, and other errors weaken the Bible”
(Encyclopedia of Mormonism , Vol. 1, Bible).

Again we can see from this small sample of quotes how the conviction that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy starts with The Book of Mormon (“the most correct book on earth” and “the keystone of our religion”) and continues to pervade Mormon thinking and writing throughout their history.

If the LDS heirarchy is attempting to distance themselves from these teachings in the face of recent evidence that debunks them, all well and good. But do not insult the intelligence of those who lived through these teachings for decades by denying that they were ever authoritatively taught.
Grace to you all,
Paul

 

[catholic-rcia]

“I looked up the translation of the Latter Day Saints Bible”

What Bible? Are you speaking about the King James? It would be the same would it not? Accept for a few books missing.

 

[MEP]

“I looked up the translation of the Latter Day Saints Bible”

What Bible? Are you speaking about the King James? It would be the same would it not? Accept for a few books missing.

Joseph Smith translated an English language version of the Bible that was intended to address the “flaws in translation” that Mormons believe exist in all other versions of the Bible. LDS don’t actually use this translation of the Bible in their ministries though for reasons I’ve never understood. The reason I’ve always heard is that they use the KJV because it is the most commonly accepted Bible and therefore would make the LDS church less alien to potential converts.

I don’t understand how using known false doctrine (which is what LDS believe about at least part of the KJV – those parts which were mistranslated or corrupted through the apostasy) to convert people to your faith is a good thing though. If JS’s translation is better than ours, and is free from the stain of the apostasy, why not use it exclusively above all others? It’s almost as if the Bible is an afterthought to Mormons when compared to their standard texts. I find that odd since the Bible contains the only first-hand accounts of Jesus’ life and ministry on this Earth and he is supposed to be the central character of their faith.

The excuses for not using JS’s translation have just always sounded very thin to me, and potentially blasphemous if you believe in the truth of JS’s revelation about the apostasy.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

PaulDupre:

BJ,
You really don’t know what your chuch teaches, do you?

The Mormon Church has always maintained that the Bible is hopelessly corrupt and untrustworthy:

Wrong again, Paul…
Also, your own RCC teaches that there are wrong translations of the Bible, so the Catholic Church also has different interpretations based on who was doing the translating and the meaning that person thought was being put forth.
“In their translation, the Douay-Rheims commission took great pains to translate exactly: and—contrary to what would appear to be the procedure of the modern Bible translators—when a passage seemed strange and unintelligible, they left it alone, even if obscure, and “let the chips fall as they may.” But it would appear that the modern Bible translators, on the other hand, often look at an obscure passage, decide what they think it means, then translate the passage with words that bring out that meaning. The result is that the English is usually(not always) easier to understand, but it is not necessarily what the Bible says:rather it is the translators interpretation and understanding of what the Bible says. However the Holy Ghost may have hidden several additional meanings in any given passage which the translators do not see. Those meanings may well be completely translated out by this method of translation!”

This is a quoted passage from the Douay-Rheims Bible which is one of the several different translations to English of the Catholic Bible.
In this same vein, the King James Version, which we follow, has words which have been translated wrong, and by the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, mentioned above(that you yourselves believe in)Joseph Smith was able to clarify some of the passages. There are footnotes in my copy of the KJV which tell the translation or clarification of meaning that Joseph Smith gave through the power of the Holy Ghost, but the KJV has not been changed from the original KJV.
We follow the original Bible with some clarifications, of the original translation, in footnotes, but no changes have been made in the copy, it is the same as the version all other churches follow. Indeed it is the same as the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible except for the books that are excluded from the KJV, such as Machabees, Lamentations, Baruch, Osee, etc.
You as Catholics all know that you yourselves have several(about 4-5 translations of the Bible) I have been told by forum members that the one the priests use is different that the one the parishners use. And that one translation is better than another. I found this out through quoting a passage from Douay Rheims and was told that passage was not in the Catholic Bible, then is when I found out there were several different translations of the Catholic Bible and some verses are conveniently left out or enhanced depending on which version you are reading.
I’m sorry, Paul, but it is you who did not know what the LDS Church teaches. Do you know what the Catholic Church teaches? Which version of the CB do you read? You only picked out half truths to add to your vast array of misinformation. In order to fully understand the plan, you cannot take bits and pieces and translated them to your own meaning. The things you quote have an entirely different meaning to me, than they do to you. To me they make perfect sense when taken in context with the rest of the story. There is way too much information, to say that one passage is all there is. Many things depend on other things to clarify and enhance the message God has for us. That is why there is so much repetition from God in the Bible. He is our Father and like a Father teaching a child, He must repeat over and over, in many different teaching scenarios, until, hopefully we get the message.
I prefer to not read unseen messages into scripture as the Catholics seem to do, but to take it literally as far as it is translated correctly. Scripture is God’s instruction book to us, read it and pray for your own understanding of his message. We each may understand it differently, as it pertains to our lives and needs. The Holy Ghost guides us if we ask for his help in understanding the words. BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Any translation of any book to English is bound to have errors, depending on the person doing the translating on a particular day. The Bible took years to translate and there were many persons doing the translating at different times, some had more knowledge than others in translating languages, and some were more in tune with God and let His inspiration guide them.
The best way to read the Bible and know it is correct would be to learn the original language it was written in and read it without translation to English. Anyone, willing to do that?
The Biblical passage to undermine all Mormonism, probably undermines all Christianity, if a person trying to do such a thing wants to take it out of context. Anyone, can take anything and use it to prove or disprove according to his particular knowledge or lack of knowledge about the subject. Religion is not to be proved or disproved. Faith is belief in those things which are unseen. There are people who profess to believe that God does not exist, I for one believe He does exist. Can I prove it to you, NO. But I know without a shadow of doubt that it is true. God is real and He is my Father in Heaven and He is there when I need guidance and help in my daily life. He cares about me as if I were the only child He had, and he loves each of His children equally. To quibble over translations is a moot point in the scheme of things. The important thing is that we understand that He loves us to the end and is there to help us if we ask. ALL OF US! There are no favorites in God’s eyes. BJ