A single woman's rant

[valient_Lucy]

Actually West is a popularizer of JPII, so for me he saves me from reading the formidable TOB (a huge book that sits on my bookshelf unread). The post I recommended to you is JPII via his popularizer West. It is loaded with quotes from the Catechism, Aquinas and John Paul II. Hardly West’s opinion but his marshalling of sources to answer questions.

Perhaps a better reference for you might be Dawn Eden. I reworked a list of reasons she gave for being chaste here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/12/30/dawn-eden%e2%80%99s-reasons-to-be-chaste-a-short-list/

Bad advice usually comes from nitwits – whether they are married or not is of little consequence (I would imagine). I became interested in the topic of prudence and temperance (of which chastity is a subset) so there are a number of readings on the topic at payingattentiontothesky.

I always found hating oneself is a developed taste. Glad you had an epiphany on the topic: I wish I had one but have nothing to offer. Please share if it is not too personal. PM me if you like.

dj

I’m well aware that Christopher West is a populizer of TOB by JP2. I read chapters out of Good News about Sex and Marriage a few months ago. The advice focused on what singles couldn’t do, and the only advice that he gave was wait (in other words, don’t live in the present, live in a future fantasy world) pray (good advice) and to remind us that we’ll be married to Christ in heaven and we’ll be part of the communion of saints. In other words, “Don’t worry single person, you’ll be dead soon!”

Yeah, super helpful.

I was on retreat this weekend. The retreat was about Mary, and a priest was talking about how Mary is a model for all vocations. When the priest talked about the vocation to the priesthood and religous life, he talked about the vow of chastity, and how single people aren’t properly living the virtue of chastity, otherwise they would understand the vocation of priests and religous. He said, “If a priest is trying to live chastity as a negative, ie, he views chastity as ‘I can’t do this, I can’t do that’ good luck!” He stressed that priests, religous, and singles must learn to integrate their sexuality into their whole person, and to give themselves completely to everyone. He urged us to “lose sleep over the salvation of others.”

In that moment, I realized two things.

1. My understanding of chastity was negative, ie, purely a list of things I couldn’t do.
   2 As an unmarried person, I am called to love everyone, and to give myself to everyone right now. No married person had ever taught me this. I understood that virginity and chastity isn’t limiting. If anything, marriage is limiting, becaue you are only called to love your spouse and children. If you’re not married, you’re called to love everyone!

In a few minutes, the priest answered two questions that had been haunting me: Why do I hate myself? and How am I to live right now, not 10 years from now?

A married person could not have answered those questions. They would be simply baffled by the first question. That’s not speculation. Many of the married posters who responded to this thread were kind, but utterly confused and horrified by what I was feeling. And they would be incapable of giving the advice that the priest gave me about how to live at this present moment, because they are not called to integrate their sexuality into their whole person in order that they might love everyone. They could explain the teachings of the Church, but they can’t give advice on how to live that, and they certainly cannot exemplfy this in their lives, because that is not their calling.

I’m not really angry at them. I see them a bit like the Apostles. They fished all night, but they caught nothing.

 

[djeter]

I see them a bit like the Apostles. They fished all night, but they caught nothing.

That tickled my fancy no end. I hope I can remember it to use it again.

dj

 

[valient_Lucy]

Bad advice usually comes from nitwits – whether they are married or not is of little consequence (I would imagine). I became interested in the topic of prudence and temperance (of which chastity is a subset) so there are a number of readings on the topic at payingattentiontothesky.

dj

I don’t think that married couples are nitwits. But in this issue (how to live a chaste life as a single) they are simply out of their league. They’re not qualified to give advice on this topic, and unfortunately, most of their advice, no matter how well meaning, usually backfires and only intensifies the problem. I know a lot of people won’t like this. I really hesitated last night over whether or not I should make this assertion. But this is what I believe, based on reason, and on my own personal experience.

BTW, this might just be my 1900th post! Yay! 100 more to go before P2K! (post 2000.)

 

[agapewolf]

I know C. West, and I’ve been to the institute. Viewing the negative is NOT what he advises. He has the best advice out of what I’ve heard…

How to love as a woman or a man, in whatever state you are in. To love as a mother, sister, daughter. No matter if you are married or not.

While I understand some people might not be able to relate to other vocations, there are many married people who indeed did live a life of celibacy for a long time, and they can still give good advice. I disagree that they are incapable of understanding it.

Just as I, a single person, often have helped many in marriage prep, and in lengthier marriages with getting to the bottom of the problems, because I see it objectively.

 

[prolifewife]

Ponyguy and Prolifewife, I remembered both of you in my rosary last night.

Oh! Thank you so much. You are such a sweetheart! :hug3:

I’m happy you are starting to find some answers and finding some peace in your vocation. God bless you and I’ll be thinking of you! :hug1:

 

[valient_Lucy]

I know C. West, and I’ve been to the institute. Viewing the negative is NOT what he advises. He has the best advice out of what I’ve heard…

How to love as a woman or a man, in whatever state you are in. To love as a mother, sister, daughter. No matter if you are married or not.

While I understand some people might not be able to relate to other vocations, there are many married people who indeed did live a life of celibacy for a long time, and they can still give good advice. I disagree that they are incapable of understanding it.

Just as I, a single person, often have helped many in marriage prep, and in lengthier marriages with getting to the bottom of the problems, because I see it objectively.

Pray for death is good advice? No thanks. I’d rather live.

In theory I would agree with you, that a married person should be able to see things more objectively. But this has simply not been my experience.

I looked to married people for advice because I would like to be married myself one day. And yet, while they were well meaning, their advice was ineffective, or counter-productive.
If you’ve found their advice helpful, that’s great. But it has not been the same to me. The advice married couples gave me was to wait. The advice the priest gave me was to live.

I still hope to marry someday, and if I do, I’ll go to married couples for advice. Until then, I’m going to go to priests and religous for advice on how to live today, because they not only understand my problems, they exemplify the solution.

And if I marry and have children, I’ll make sure that they are taught chastity in depth by good and holy priests and religous, not from my future husband and I. We would not be qualified to do so. We would be able to teach them to wait, but we would not be able to teach them how to live.

I’m not saying they were wrong to tell me to hold out for marriage, and I still hope to get married, and I try to remember to pray for my future husband. But I needed to know how to live each day, and quite frankly, I don’t think that someone’s vaguely remembered experiences on how his life used to be is very helpful. The priests and religous are living the same struggle I’m living right now, so it only makes sense to go to them for advice, I think.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Oh! Thank you so much. You are such a sweetheart! :hug3:

I’m happy you are starting to find some answers and finding some peace in your vocation. God bless you and I’ll be thinking of you! :hug1:

Thanks. I still hope to be married one day, but I have to live now. That’s what the priest helped me to see.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I’m not saying they were wrong to tell me to hold out for marriage, and I still hope to get married, and I try to remember to pray for my future husband. But I needed to know how to live each day, and quite frankly, I don’t think that someone’s vaguely remembered experiences on how his life used to be is very helpful. The priests and religous are living the same struggle I’m living right now, so it only makes sense to go to them for advice, I think.

I would go to a married person for advice about how to meet a future spouse, or what to look for in a husband. But I don’t think their advice is much help in my day to day life.

On the other hand, the priest’s advice to live and love everyone would probably make me more desireable as a spouse, and a better wife and mother as well.

 

[prolifewife]

Thanks. I still hope to be married one day, but I have to live now. That’s what the priest helped me to see.

Certainly! And I will pray you find him soon. But just as I can want to be a mother all I want, the fact is I’m not. So I too have to learn to live my vocation of the present moment, even if it’s not exactly where I’d like to be. And you my dear have helped me a lot with this. So thank you again! :hug3:

 

[agapewolf]

Pray for death is good advice? No thanks. I’d rather live.
:

Apparently, you missed the first thing I said. West does NOT ever say pray for death. If you actually have heard him speak or read what he writes in context, you’ll see he says the opposite of what you are portraying. You’ve used a hyperbole upon hyperbole.

My 2nd paragraph above says what he does say…to LIVE in the present by loving. In fact, he says that no one is satisfied, even by their spouses… we must all realize that our ache is for God, and will only be satisfied in heaven. That goes for everyone, not just single.

You made an absolute statement that married people are incapable of helping single people. I countered your absolute statement that its not always true.

And again, I know of many married people that went through a very long period of celibacy before being married and it is hardly a “vaguely remembered experience” to them.

I understand what you’re getting at, and it sounds like you needed different help than what you got, but that doesn’t discredit everyone else.

 

[djeter]

Apparently, you missed the first thing I said. West does NOT ever say pray for death. If you actually have heard him speak or read what he writes in context, you’ll see he says the opposite of what you are portraying. You’ve used a hyperbole upon hyperbole.

My 2nd paragraph above says what he does say…to LIVE in the present by loving. In fact, he says that no one is satisfied, even by their spouses… we must all realize that our ache is for God, and will only be satisfied in heaven. That goes for everyone, not just single.

You made an absolute statement that married people are incapable of helping single people. I countered your absolute statement that its not always true.

And again, I know of many married people that went through a very long period of celibacy before being married and it is hardly a “vaguely remembered experience” to them.

I understand what you’re getting at, and it sounds like you needed different help than what you got, but that doesn’t discredit everyone else.

Agapewolf –

I’ve been unable to see in any of the things Christopher West has written what valientLucy has been saying. In fact all I’ve seen is his interpretations of JPII TOB, which have been very helpful to me.

In fact this exchange:

Me: Bad advice usually comes from nitwits – whether they are married or not is of little consequence (I would imagine).

valient Lucy: I don’t think that married couples are nitwits.

one sees how valient Lucy isn’t able to follow an argument – transforming it into something else. I think she probably did this with Christopher West. As for her bad experiences with married people giving advice – I’m not questioning that, subjective as it is.

Thanks for the vote of confidence for Christopher West. He seems to have said a few controversial things but the stuff I’ve read has been just fine.

dj

 

[ElizabethAnne]

valient Lucy,

The argument that marrieds are unqualified to give advice on singleness is untrue and wades into dangerous territory. It ignores that married people were once single and that some married couples are not able to have sex. It is also very similar to the argument some use to justify ignoring the Church’s teaching on marriage – priests aren’t married, so they aren’t qualified to teach on the subject.

The married people you knew were not able to help you with the problems you encountered. You’ve taken that experience and applied it to all people, which isn’t fair.

I love what the priest told you on your retreat and am so glad that it helped you. It seems he is a very smart and very holy man! It’s advice that I have heard before, even from married couples. I’ve repeated it in talks that I have given about marriage to people in RCIA. I tell people I wish I had appreciated the gift of singleness when I had it! God wants us to enjoy every stage of life and use each to make us holier.

And if you do have children, I think you would be qualified to teach them about singleness. Look at what you’ve been through and what you have learned. How could that be anything but a fantastic witness?

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Also, it’s quite possible that some of the advice you previously received would be helpful for a different single person.