A Sinless Mary

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runningdude said:
Ah, here’s gotcha 🙂 Mary was indeed sinless - but - she was sinless only because she was redeemed by the Grace she received in advance from her divine Son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

Jesus Christ, alone, is the only human being who is sinless by His own merits, hence why only His sacrifice brought about salvation for mankind!
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Yes and thus we reach logic early in a thread. Must be the good Air and Historically rich Catholic teaching in Conn.

The plan was Gods, and Gods plan was God through Mary as a Human with the Immaculate Conception, thus the Son of Man, the Redeemer. Marys significance at the Cross indicates She was and remained consistant as His “first disciple” . The death of a Son is difficult as any mother would confirm. Nowhere does Mary fall short, doesn’t happen. The perfect role-model of a truly human being.

God Bless. GT
 
Just wanted to say I loved reading these posts. Especially today. One day our non’Catholic brothers and sisters will get it. If not in this life, then in Purgatory. Thank God we have Purgatory. Purgatory is positive not negative God bless:thumbsup:👍👍
 
Medic_Mark said:
Question:

If Mary was sinless, could she have not made a perfect sacrifice upon the cross at Calvary? Isn’t this a typical protestant objection?
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Personally, I think this has to do with walking the talk.

Sure, Mary could have been the Virginal Sacrafice… But why?

The fact that GOD is willing to come down as man, and physically experience the pain, the humiliation, that all that is wrong with what was done to him… Well, he’s in the trenches with us… No?

I think many of us have more respect for a Boss that has actually DONE the dirty work themselves. As opposed to the prima donna who only pretends to know how hard it is…
 
Nowhere does Mary fall short, doesn’t happen. The perfect role-model of a truly human being.

HUh???

That is a bit confusing. Mary was an obedient servant, as was John the baptist … But Mary was also a very good Jewish mother . And so in obedience to God ( as a new mother) she brought in the temple at Jesus’s circumsision a pair of turtledoves for a SIN offering. (leviticus 12:6-8)

And in Luke 1:46-47 Mary herself says
  1. And Mary said:
    “My soul exalts the Lord,
  2. And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Do you see my confusion?! And GOD’s Word says that ALL have fallen short of the glory of GOD. IT does not say ALL, except Mary.
 
.*** Thank God we have Purgatory. Purgatory is positive not negative ***

I have a exhaustive concordance which is a book that lists EVERY word of the bible. And in english, hebrew and greek and aramaic, purgatory is not mentioned!!

Where do people get this idea from???.

When Jesus was on the cross there was a thief next to him that asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus got to his kingdom and Jesus’s reply is TODAY you will be with me in paradise. He did not say ’ when you are done in purgatory’. Pergatory is only a negative thing if we are supposed to go staight to the arms of our loving Father.

Jesus said " if you (meaning us), who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father in Heaven. God was not created in our image: angry and pointing the finger at us, waiting to smack us if we mess up. No we were made in His image: GOd is LOve.

If you would not send your child to suffer in fire, why would you think HE would?!!???
 
zafiacat said:
.*** Thank God we have Purgatory. Purgatory is positive not negative ***

I have a exhaustive concordance which is a book that lists EVERY word of the bible. And in english, hebrew and greek and aramaic, purgatory is not mentioned!!

Where do people get this idea from???.

When Jesus was on the cross there was a thief next to him that asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus got to his kingdom and Jesus’s reply is TODAY you will be with me in paradise. He did not say ’ when you are done in purgatory’. Pergatory is only a negative thing if we are supposed to go staight to the arms of our loving Father.

Jesus said " if you (meaning us), who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father in Heaven. God was not created in our image: angry and pointing the finger at us, waiting to smack us if we mess up. No we were made in His image: GOd is LOve.

If you would not send your child to suffer in fire, why would you think HE would?!!???
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Fist I would like you to use your exhaustive concordance, and look up some other words for me:
Trinity
Rapture
According to your logic, you should not accept either of those things either, as they do not appear in the Bible. I won’t discuss the Rapture here because it is utterly false (in the way it is taught among most non-denominational communities anyways). But What about the Trinity? God is Trinity, is he not? Yet the word Trinity c=is not to be found in the Scriptures at anywhere. Rather than copy and paste what I have written on Purgatory in the past, I will simply provide a link to what I have written on the subject: http://debunking-the-myths.blogspot.com/2010/07/yes-virginia-there-is-purgatory.html
 
zafiacat said:
Nowhere does Mary fall short, doesn’t happen. The perfect role-model of a truly human being.

HUh???

That is a bit confusing. Mary was an obedient servant, as was John the baptist … But Mary was also a very good Jewish mother . And so in obedience to God ( as a new mother) she brought in the temple at Jesus’s circumsision a pair of turtledoves for a SIN offering. (leviticus 12:6-8)

And in Luke 1:46-47 Mary herself says
  1. And Mary said:
    “My soul exalts the Lord,
  2. And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Do you see my confusion?! And GOD’s Word says that ALL have fallen short of the glory of GOD. IT does not say ALL, except Mary.
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You are alluding to romans 3:23. There is a problem with this interpretation. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, when interpreting Scripture, the very first thing we must do is to “Be mindful of the Content and Unity of Scripture.” What does this mean? It means that Scripture can never contradict itself. Here is the problem with your interpretation. In another place in the very same book (Romans 5:12), we read about the universality of sin by way of analogy:
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned –
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All men die, because all have sinned. Seems really straightforward, doesn’t it? But wait–not all have (or will) died. Preposterous, you say. Not really. Not if you believe the Sacred Scriptures. I am not sure if you are one of those who all but ignores the Old Testament or not (I sincerely hope not, because “All Scripture is inspired by God”), so I will begin with the New Testament. First we have Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.
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And also in 1 Thessalonians 4:17
then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
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But there is evidence in the Old Testament as well. First in Genesis 5:24, we have the Enoch alluded to by the Author of Hebrews:
Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
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and lastly, we have the account of Elijah going to heaven (2 Kings 2:11):
And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli’jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
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What was the point of all of this? By the direct act of God, not all die. The same is to be said of personal sin (utilizing the analogous comparison between death and sin in Romans 5:12) that also, through the direct act of God, not all will sin. This is what happened with Mary, since she was specifically chosen by God from the foundation of the world to be the mother of the Savior, she was given the graces to avoid sin throughout her entire life.
 
zafiacat said:
Nowhere does Mary fall short, doesn’t happen. The perfect role-model of a truly human being.

HUh???
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So where does it say Mary has fallen short in Bible? Besides being called Blessed on earth while alive. Visited by the Angel, an Immaculate Conception, and the correct bible interpretation is “My Soul Doth Magnify the Lord” . Overcome by the Holy Spirit, and she remains humbled and focused on the Lord, a perfect role model as mentioned. I fail to see where your confused?

The Blessed Mother teachs us in Her behavior how to decend in our humanity in order to assend to the Lords. Its the path of rising above the “self”. What parts not understood?

And the High Priest says to Jesus, “Are you the Christ the one born of the Blessed” and what does Christ say? And why would he say that?
 
runningdude said:
👍

Christ described Himself as the “Son of Man”. He was the son of a human being, Mary. Thus Himself a human being!

That He is also the Son of God the Father, and Himself God the Son is not to be discounted 😃 as this alone is why He was sinless by His own “merit”!

(somethings on a Catholic forum I hope are implied… ;))
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He was the Son of Man and the Son of God i.e. human and Divine. Our Lord preferred to use the term “Son of Man” to call attention to His Incarnation since most Jews of His day regarded themselves as “sons of God.” To Him to have called Himself, “Son of God” would have indicated to the Jews that He was just another Jew, like them!

As “Son of Man” He was still a Divine Son, a COMPOSITE being and never a “human being” (which would be heresy, if I understand correctly).

As a composite being, He was a Divine Person with two Natures - period.

That He was sinless goes without saying. It was the union of God with Man in Christ Jesus that already secured our salvation that culminated in His act of obedience, even unto the Cross.

So please refrain, brother, from calling our Lord a “human being.”

Alex
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
Actually Jesus saved us in His adorable humanity, not his divinity.
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Not at all (forgive me!). He saved us in both Natures. He saved us by assuming our human nature and taking it into His Divinity. “What is not assumed (into His Divinity) is not saved” as the Fathers taught.

Christ is perfectly One, Divine and Human.

Alex
 
I don’t think Mary was sinless because she had a human nature like the rest of us.
 
Wesley7 said:
I don’t think Mary was sinless because she had a human nature like the rest of us.
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So when Jesus commanded us saying, “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”, He was basically lying because we have a human nature and that would be impossible? Or you are just wrong. What do you think?
 
Also, I failed to comment in depth about an earlier post. Luke 2:23-24 which is a Gospel referrence by Luke of a sacrifice for any male born according to the law of the Lord in Old Testament Judaism. Thus the referrence to two Turtle Doves. The Holy Family keeping with Jewish Law and Tradition bears no indication of sin. The author simply states the family keeps “tradition” in this regards. In reality it is in itself a indicator that something other than tradition was happening, and rightfully so it was. Luke in itself when read from start to the point of the Presentation is clear on all aspects on Mary the Virgin, Mary overcome by the Holy Spirit, Visitation by the Angel Gabriel. The reality that this also happens with Elisabeth 6-mths prior indicates that an entire community is aware of the reality of not only Mary but Elisabeth. John the Baptist and the Blessed Mother. So here there were many who paid tribute to the Miracles from God. How one seeks to butcher the clarity of the event with false teaching is in itself an attrocity.

What the author doesn’t clearly explain could be easily figured out with little thought and a bit of reading and understanding. Remarkable Gospel which clearly shows the reality of all involved. The verse in Luke is also confirmed by the Prophecy in Old Testament of Isaiah 7:14 The Virgin Birth Prophesied. Matt 2:2-3 also indicates the Birth Anxieties with the Magi seeing the Star in the East and coming to worship a King Born. Numbers 24:17 also indicates the Star of Bethlehem.

These Particular verse’s in Luke 2:23-24 are the gateway into the Presentation. Which here also relates to the Joyful Mysteries. All of which are attributed to Luke.

Yet to clearly understand the birth of John the Baptist and the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary. The entire text of Luke and the first two chapters must be read and clearly understood. These are the Joyful Mysteries which would be aside from the entire chapters 1+2.

Annunciation Luke 1:28-30

Visitation Luke 1:41-42

Nativity Luke 2:7

Presentation Luke 2:22

Jesus at the Temple Luke 2:46

These Myseries in themself have been contemplated by scholars for centurys.

The indication I made earlier from Peters Denial and the High Priest only confirms that even the community who were in fact sinners, understood the claim of the Christ and the Blessed Mother. So the knowledge of this reality ran not only among the Jews, but throughout all area regions. Peters confrontation indicates this by the reason of another individual aside form those confronting Christ also understood the claims.

In other words, the didn’t say; “Are you the supposed God, born of the sinner Jewish peasant.” The claim and witness to exactly what was happening was there and for all to see. The fact the Christ was Crucified and the Denial of He and the Virgin Mother did exist then, only assures us it exists now and has continued through the ages right to this post.

Theres not some parts right and some parts wrong. Finding Christ thus God is a practice in buying the whole package. What Christ bought to the table was a witness to the Truth of God in himself and a Light for all to follow through all ages. He defeats Sin and leaves all Man with many excellent examples for how humans may seek the same path.

Debating if the reality in Heaven is greater for John the Baptist or the Blessed Mother, sounds childish wouldn’t you say? All need to be a little bigger than that. With a 5-9yo thats expected, but adults? Both receive a vital, crucial assignment from God, both complete their responsibility and leave everyone with the truth of what can be accomplished. But here we come back around to the humility. Because life is a lesson in humility. I refuse to stoop to the level of that debate though.

God Bless, GT
 
The Book of Genesis says the first Eve was mother of all the born (3:20); she sinned by having within her the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge. She then became mother of all the dying, because she and we were cut off from the tree of life (3:24).

The Book of John says Mary is Mother of all the re-born (19:27); she did not sin, because she had within her the Fruit of the Tree of Life which is mystically the Cross of Christ. Mary, the New Eve, is like the Garden of Eden; where God and man are in perfect harmony. She was not cut off from the Tree of Life; the True Fruit of the Tree of Life grew within her.
 
Wesley7 said:
I don’t think Mary was sinless because she had a human nature like the rest of us.
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DId you take your sn from John Wesley, the reformer? If you did , you might want to know that he believed in the sinlessness of Mary and had a strong Marian devotion
 
Eloi said:
The Book of Genesis says the first Eve was mother of all the born (3:20); she sinned by having within her the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge. She then became mother of all the dying, because she and we were cut off from the tree of life (3:24).

The Book of John says Mary is Mother of all the re-born (19:27); she did not sin, because she had within her the Fruit of the Tree of Life which is mystically the Cross of Christ. Mary, the New Eve, is like the Garden of Eden; where God and man are in perfect harmony. She was not cut off from the Tree of Life; the True Fruit of the Tree of Life grew within her.
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beautifully put.
 
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