A soft approach to ending abortion

[lynx]

Just like existing legal sanctions have lead to underground slavery and human trafficking. Slavery would likely be safer if it were legalized.

Thanks

Now we’re both making assumptions. Will legal sanctions be like human trafficking or prohibition? It’s a tough call to make.

 

[DysonSphere]

Now we’re both making assumptions. Will legal sanctions be like human trafficking or prohibition?

It is a tough call to make, like you said. We live in a world of uncertainty. In many cases, I think that’s a wonderful thing: there are so many mysteries to be solved. In some cases, the fact of uncertainty needs to be set aside: eventually, decisions must be made.

It seems clear that there is a big difference, morally, between enslaving another human being and having a beer. Even people who are against beer would agree, I think.

I think that abortion is the killing of a human person. I am very confident in this conclusion, though I admit that I could be wrong. My confidence in this varies with respect to closeness to conception. It is nevertheless my conclusion, and was reached after carefully and critically considering the issue.

Given this conclusion, it should be understandable why I favor legal abolition of abortion as well as strong social reform (and both not just for the sake of the unborn child but for the mother and for society and social diversity as well).

I also strongly favor respect when dealing with those who have differing views. I want the resolution to be non-violent and as non-confrontational as possible, especially toward the women whose decision this currently is.

 

[losh14]

Losh14 - I’m sorry, I did not mean to offend you and I obviously have. I humbly apologize. Some of your statements in your original post sounded heartless and deception-oriented to me, but perhaps that was in my reading of it, not in your intention. I’m sorry.

I appreciate and accept your apology, and I see it wasn’t your intention to cause offense. Please forgive me my outburst.

This is an emotional issue for many of us.

Indeed. I was on the fence until I held my daughter for the first time. There’s few greater joys in my life than doing so and I cannot understand how one could destroy a person so precious.

I would agree that some clinics don’t provide enough resources, and I think they should have to by law. But the ones I have come into contact with (in the course of working with rape victims) do a good job of that.

I’m very glad to hear it. All I hear reported in terms of legislation is resistance to providing required counseling. I would certainly feel more comfortable if there were an independent person not affiliated with the agency who provided the counseling.

Specifically, in my experience, they counsel the client that any form of surgery is a risk.

This was just proposed in Missouri that abortion providers must disclose all risks, but the catch is that they must disclose that the fetus would feel pain.

 

[losh14]

Make it so that child is not a burden and abortion goes away. I doubt anything like this will ever happen though.

Children do add “burdens” but that’s part of the sacrifice of parenthood and I don’t think any legislation can or should be expected to take it away. Besides, there’s the option to put up the child for adoption.

1. The emotional and physical comfort they need
   a) Maid, therapy and companionship services
   b) Rides to and from general stores and hospital as needed with attendee

Counseling, I’d understand, as well as social assistance during recovery and while the child is young. I don’t understand why we need to pay to clean their home, nor the nature of the ‘companionship’ services, but I think there are ample social programs to provide counseling, and unless the mother has alienated all friends and family and social networks she’d have access to some form of help.

1. The financial support they need
   a) Hospital bills during and after pregnancy (related only to the pregnancy)
   b) Food, clothing, transportation and any other bills arising from the pregnancy

Is this not the intent of public insurance - medicare and medicaid? Will we not all be required to have insurance shortly? There are programs to acquire food aid as well. I can understand the concerns of a single expectant mother over being able to care for the child, but is not having a car a sufficient reason to allow abortion?

Sadly, though, I think you are right. I think too often the mentality is “should I keep this child?” rather than “what do I have to do to prepare for its birth?”

Even Christians aren’t immune to this. At a local church where some of our friends put their kids in day care, there was a scandal. The pastor’s son impregnated the daughter of the congregant who runs the day care. The daughter had an abortion - mother found out only following an ER visit for bleeding. My wife’s friend, whose daughter goes there, called her last night very upset about this.

So I suppose you could add to the list “a loss of stigma due to pregnancy, though keeping the stigma attached with illicit sex”.

 

[Hereswith]

Sadly, though, I think you are right. I think too often the mentality is “should I keep this child?” rather than “what do I have to do to prepare for its birth?”

Wow - you can say that again.

 

[lynx]

Children do add “burdens” but that’s part of the sacrifice of parenthood

You are correct 100%. This is also why women have abortions, because children are burdens.

and I don’t think any legislation can or should be expected to take it away.

It doesn’t need to be legislation. Really, I challenge any group to give up their time and money to support any woman who’s thinking of having an abortion. I have laid out the plan of what needs to be done to almost completely negate the burden of pregnancy. If that unborn child is worth that much to anyone, then pro lifers should have no problem with the sacrifice.

Besides, there’s the option to put up the child for adoption.

Whoa whoa whoa. This doesn’t address any of the concerns during pregnancy, which is a huge strain on the body and wallet.

Counseling, I’d understand, as well as social assistance during recovery and while the child is young. I don’t understand why we need to pay to clean their home,

During pregnancy, and how well it’s going, mobility becomes an issue. Assuming the worst case scenario that this woman is alone in her pregnancy, someone must help her perform the tasks she would usually do i.e. cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc.

nor the nature of the ‘companionship’ services,

Pregnancy is difficult with just one person at any given time. She might need someone emotionally to vent to, past a counselor. This person would also be needed for transportation, emergency services and anything a maid doesn’t cover. They are also used to judge the well being of the mother. Assume that as a result of pregnancy she develops suicidal tendencies. Someone needs to be there to look out for mother and child best interests.

but I think there are ample social programs to provide counseling

Yes there are, but only for counseling and that is not enough if you personally want to save an unborn child.

and unless the mother has alienated all friends and family and social networks she’d have access to some form of help.

Perhaps if she had these networks to begin with she wouldn’t be thinking about an abortion. Assume the likely worst case scenario.

Is this not the intent of public insurance - medicare and medicaid? Will we not all be required to have insurance shortly? There are programs to acquire food aid as well.

So instead of you paying for her support you want the taxpayers to pay for her support? If I get a vote i’d rather she have the abortion is she feels she is unfit rather than have me pay for her burden.

I can understand the concerns of a single expectant mother over being able to care for the child, but is not having a car a sufficient reason to allow abortion?

It’s all a matter of negating the burden of a child. I’m just adding things that lessen the burden. Each in the list is a small step towards your goal. Each piece individually is not that important, it’s when you add it all up.

So I suppose you could add to the list “a loss of stigma due to pregnancy, though keeping the stigma attached with illicit sex”.

Perhaps. Regardless, I have given what needs to be done. I challenge anyone to do it. If it’s “too much” just post back.

 

[Cristiano]

You are correct 100%. This is also why women have abortions, because children are burdens.

It doesn’t need to be legislation. Really, I challenge any group to give up their time and money to support any woman who’s thinking of having an abortion. I have laid out the plan of what needs to be done to almost completely negate the burden of pregnancy. If that unborn child is worth that much to anyone, then pro lifers should have no problem with the sacrifice.

Whoa whoa whoa. This doesn’t address any of the concerns during pregnancy, which is a huge strain on the body and wallet.

During pregnancy, and how well it’s going, mobility becomes an issue. Assuming the worst case scenario that this woman is alone in her pregnancy, someone must help her perform the tasks she would usually do i.e. cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc.

Pregnancy is difficult with just one person at any given time. She might need someone emotionally to vent to, past a counselor. This person would also be needed for transportation, emergency services and anything a maid doesn’t cover. They are also used to judge the well being of the mother. Assume that as a result of pregnancy she develops suicidal tendencies. Someone needs to be there to look out for mother and child best interests.

Yes there are, but only for counseling and that is not enough if you personally want to save an unborn child.

Perhaps if she had these networks to begin with she wouldn’t be thinking about an abortion. Assume the likely worst case scenario.

So instead of you paying for her support you want the taxpayers to pay for her support? If I get a vote i’d rather she have the abortion is she feels she is unfit rather than have me pay for her burden.

It’s all a matter of negating the burden of a child. I’m just adding things that lessen the burden. Each in the list is a small step towards your goal. Each piece individually is not that important, it’s when you add it all up.

Perhaps. Regardless, I have given what needs to be done. I challenge anyone to do it. If it’s “too much” just post back.

From your post it seems to me that we should euthanize those women because they are unable to refrain from sexual acts, they are unable to provide for their prole, and they would be a burden on society. A single abortion would not solve the problem and maybe euthanasia of the poor and the week would release a burden from society. It seems to me that these individuals do not have a right to life because they are worthless, and so as a society we do not have an obligation toward them. On the other side if you want all these poor and week people you should consider supporting them at your own expenses without burdening the rest of the productive society. Are you sure that we want to move in that direction?

 

[losh14]

It doesn’t need to be legislation. Really, I challenge any group to give up their time and money to support any woman who’s thinking of having an abortion… If that unborn child is worth that much to anyone, then pro lifers should have no problem with the sacrifice.

Our limited means aren’t nearly the altruism we’d like to be able to show. Time is indeed a challenge for all of us, I think as I told our friends who are due next month that we’ll make some food to freeze for them so they’ll have some easy meals for the first week.

Whoa whoa whoa. This doesn’t address any of the concerns during pregnancy, which is a huge strain on the body and wallet.

Pregnancy strains both and I can understand the profound difficulty, having helped my wife physically and workwise, and also gone through the finances of it (nearly $22K if we didn’t have insurance). This is where the importance of a culture of life really shows - it can be said “it takes a village to raise a child” but I think that village is just as needed during the pregnancy. Where a woman may be single and expecting, I’d still hope that her family and friends would help her when she needs them. Where she is truly alone, that is where I think the temptation would be highest. Where she is not alone and those around her do nothing to help, that I think is deplorable.

During pregnancy, and how well it’s going, mobility becomes an issue. Assuming the worst case scenario that this woman is alone in her pregnancy, someone must help her perform the tasks she would usually do i.e. cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc.

Thanks for rephrasing - that sounds more reasonable. Does anyone know of an organization that volunteers to help new moms or expecting moms with these sorts of things?

Pregnancy is difficult with just one person at any given time. She might need someone emotionally to vent to, past a counselor.

That sounds more feasible than ‘companionship.’

Perhaps if she had these networks to begin with she wouldn’t be thinking about an abortion. Assume the likely worst case scenario.

Likely and we must often assume the worst.

So instead of you paying for her support you want the taxpayers to pay for her support? If I get a vote i’d rather she have the abortion is she feels she is unfit rather than have me pay for her burden.

This isn’t a tax solution. This is a community problem. The brokenness of the world and the brokenness of a person. Perhaps this is something I should bring up to our parish - that we should have families who ‘adopt’ moms (whether within our without our community) who need help. As I think of it, this is something our group of friends does for one another almost without question. Maybe it’s time to extend that community.

Perhaps. Regardless, I have given what needs to be done. I challenge anyone to do it. If it’s “too much” just post back.

What’s too much is to let a child die that could be saved, and let a mother suffer who doesn’t need to suffer.

 

[losh14]

From your post it seems to me that we should euthanize those women because they are unable to refrain from sexual acts, they are unable to provide for their prole, and they would be a burden on society.

Easy, Cristiano. I too feel that abortion disproportionately impacts the poor, but I don’t think that such monstruous genocide of the mothers is being suggested here. Let’s keep the conversation rational and constructive.

 

[lynx]

From your post it seems to me that we should euthanize those women because they are unable to refrain from sexual acts, they are unable to provide for their prole, and they would be a burden on society.

Twisting my words and using gross exaggerations. Well done

A single abortion would not solve the problem and maybe euthanasia of the poor and the week would release a burden from society.

Where are you logically even coming from? We’re not talking about the poor, stay on topic.

It seems to me that these individuals do not have a right to life because they are worthless

Your words, not mine.

, and so as a society we do not have an obligation toward them.

Societies have obligations. What that obligation is though is relative to the problem and solutions available.

On the other side if you want all these poor and week people you should consider supporting them at your own expenses without burdening the rest of the productive society. Are you sure that we want to move in that direction?

I don’t support impoverished people very often. If I do, it’s only with food. I would rather move towards a direction where individuals can take care of their issues by themselves. Example, if you have an unwanted pregnancy, abort it. Maybe, just maybe, if the burden of the child was lessened, there would be less abortions. Maybe you should donate your time and money to saving unborn lives rather than trying to attack me. However, my guess is that they don’t mean that much to you. But who knows. Go out and prove me wrong. I’ve told you what you need to do, now it’s all up to you.

 

[Cristiano]

Easy, Cristiano. I too feel that abortion disproportionately impacts the poor, but I don’t think that such monstruous genocide of the mothers is being suggested here. Let’s keep the conversation rational and constructive.

The monstrous genocide of pregnant women is not being suggested here, but the monstrous genocide of future mothers as been suggested because they could be a burden in the early phases of their lives. If the conversation were rational and constructive I would not expect some asinine idea of forcing people to take care of someone else kids before and above forcing new parents to assume individual and social responsibility. It is quite easy and stupid to challenge people to take care of my issues because I do not want to prevent them or deal with them. I have seen mothers that assume responsibilities for their pregnancies while looking for support. Just look at a lot of the mothers that ask for support from the Gabriel project, they ask for help while trying to make a life for themselves. They do not ask someone to get rid of their children.

My point was a reductio ad absurdum to show one of the poster that it is stupid and dangerous to dump our issues on someone else. Ownership of responsibilities if of the essence.

 

[lynx]

Our limited means aren’t nearly the altruism we’d like to be able to show. Time is indeed a challenge for all of us, I think as I told our friends who are due next month that we’ll make some food to freeze for them so they’ll have some easy meals for the first week.

I wish I had neighbors like you

Pregnancy strains both and I can understand the profound difficulty, having helped my wife physically and workwise, and also gone through the finances of it (nearly $22K if we didn’t have insurance). This is where the importance of a culture of life really shows - it can be said “it takes a village to raise a child” but I think that village is just as needed during the pregnancy. Where a woman may be single and expecting, I’d still hope that her family and friends would help her when she needs them. Where she is truly alone, that is where I think the temptation would be highest. Where she is not alone and those around her do nothing to help, that I think is deplorable.

Too true. Sadly, we don’t all live in this environment. So what’s a woman to do?

This isn’t a tax solution. This is a community problem. The brokenness of the world and the brokenness of a person. Perhaps this is something I should bring up to our parish - that we should have families who ‘adopt’ moms (whether within our without our community) who need help. As I think of it, this is something our group of friends does for one another almost without question. Maybe it’s time to extend that community.

It’s certainly a step in the right direction.

What’s too much is to let a child die that could be saved, and let a mother suffer who doesn’t need to suffer.

Fair enough.

 

[lynx]

The monstrous genocide of pregnant women is not being suggested here, but the monstrous genocide of future mothers as been suggested because they could be a burden in the early phases of their lives.

Life, in general, can be difficult with few easy answers to complex problems. I have told you why women have abortions, and have stated that i’m not against their solution. This is not to say that there isn’t a better solution in the middle. But, those that truly care have to do their part like losh14.

If the conversation were rational and constructive I would not expect some asinine idea of forcing people to take care of someone else kids before and above forcing new parents to assume individual and social responsibility.

Assuming responsibility is a tricky subject. One can see an abortion as assuming responsibility for past mistakes. There are few acts of atonement more difficult. At the very least, we can all agree, that the issue is that the pregnancy is unwanted. That is why abortions happen. If you know of a better way to end abortions other than minimizing the burden of the child then by all means speak up.

It is quite easy and stupid to challenge people to take care of my issues because I do not want to prevent them or deal with them.

I personally don’t have an issue, as I don’t care what woman does to herself. I feel as though the challenge is valid though. I have set up what I think needs to be done. If you feel it is lacking let me know.

I have seen mothers that assume responsibilities for their pregnancies while looking for support. Just look at a lot of the mothers that ask for support from the Gabriel project, they ask for help while trying to make a life for themselves. They do not ask someone to get rid of their children.

Not all women are the same. The opportunities and knowledge across the female gender varies greatly on abortion.

My point was a reductio ad absurdum to show one of the poster that it is stupid and dangerous to dump our issues on someone else. Ownership of responsibilities if of the essence.

Fair enough. They take ownership of their situation by aborting the child. I know you don’t like the solution but it a solution, one that is all too common.