A somewhat confusing Article of Faith

[Aloysium]

The only thing I know that Jesus wrote was written in the sand.
What He did was to establish His Church, founded on the rock of Peter.

 

[pianistclare]

I will go beyond your expectations and reply, by asking how is this relevant to CCC 107?

It sounded to me like you were advancing that we can gain everything we need by the Bible alone.

 

[Robyn_p]

Since it is the will of God to entrust the truth, necessary for salvation, to the scriptures (CCC 107). You are now introducing more truth, which cannot be necessary for salvation , otherwise paragraph 107 is wrong.

I don’t have any issues with paragraph 107. Your post leaves me somewhat confused.

Paragraph 107 isn’t wrong, but you are taking it out of context and making it say something it isn’t. That section is specifically about Sacred Scripture and how inspiration works. What it’s saying is that everything in Scripture IS true and necessary for our salvation.

But that is not the same thing as saying everything that is true and necessary for our salvation is only found in Scripture explicitly. That’s like if I said everything in this salad is good for you and necessary for staying healthy. That DOESN’T mean I’m saying everything that is good and necessary for staying healthy is only found in my salad.

See the difference?

 

[CCC_107]

The article does not say *

necessary

for salvation *-- It says for the sake of our salvation.

You are parsing it wrong.
It is not God wished to see truthForTheSakeOfOurSalvation confided to the Sacred Scriptures.
It is God wishedToSeeConfidedForTheSakeOfOurSalvation truth to the Sacred Scriptures.

Let me put it this way:
For the sake of our salvation, God wished to confide some truth to Sacred Scriptures.
For the sake of our salvation, God wished to confide some truth to Sacred Tradition.
For the sake of our salvation, God wished to confide the fullness of truth to the Church, which guards those truths which have been confided to Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition.

Why is this difficult to understand?

tee

Are you saying that the truth, which God entrusted to the scriptures for the sake of our salvation, isn’t necessary?

That is very interesting.

 

[CCC_107]

CCC #107 “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

It sounded to me like you were advancing that we can gain everything we need by the Bible alone.

I am agreeing with CCC 107, which clearly states that God wished that the truth, which is needed for our salvation, is confided to the scriptures.

What do you make of that?

 

[Aloysium]

View attachment 21640

 

[tee_eff_em]

Are you saying that the truth, which God entrusted to the scriptures for the sake of our salvation, isn’t necessary?

That is very interesting.

No.

I am saying that *the truth, which God wished to confide to the scriptures for the sake of our salvation *is not all the truth.

Do you disagree?
That is very interesting.

tee

 

[CCC_107]

Paragraph 107 isn’t wrong, but you are taking it out of context and making it say something it isn’t. That section is specifically about Sacred Scripture and how inspiration works. What it’s saying is that everything in Scripture IS true and necessary for our salvation.

But that is not the same thing as saying everything that is true and necessary for our salvation is only found in Scripture explicitly. That’s like if I said everything in this salad is good for you and necessary for staying healthy. That DOESN’T mean I’m saying everything that is good and necessary for staying healthy is only found in my salad.

See the difference?

We agree that everything in Scripture IS true and necessary for our salvation. That is why it is God’s will that this complete truth is entrusted to the scriptures. Otherwise it couldn’t possibly be sufficient for salvation.

After that where we part company, as this truth in the scriptures saved me. How could you possibly argue with that?

 

[CCC_107]

No.

I am saying that *the truth, which God wished to confide to the scriptures for the sake of our salvation *is not all the truth.

Do you disagree?
That is very interesting.

tee

What is that truth that is so interesting, when you can know the truth needed for salvation in the scriptures?

I do NOT disagree with CCC 107

 

[Beryllos]

CCC 107 …
Is this article of faith wrong?

I am not presuming that this article is wrong. I wholeheartedly agree with it.

… I am promoting CCC 107, as I agree with it…

I don’t have any issues with paragraph 107.

I do NOT disagree with CCC 107

We are all telling you what CCC 107 literally says. You are telling us it says something different. That is why this thread is getting nowhere.

 

[Gorgias]

Does this article of faith in the authoritative catechism really say that it has been discerned that it is God’s will that the truth is confided to the scriptures? Confiding means entrusting the truth to the scriptures, where it stays.

You’re applying your own definition of ‘confiding’ here, and then demanding that the quotation means what you wish it to mean. That’s not a valid approach.

In any case, what you’re failing to see is that this line is itself a quotation – from the 2nd Vatican Council document Dei Verbum. The English translation of that document, as found on the Vatican website, renders the sentence you’re focusing on as follows:

“Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”

(Moreover, in the original Latin of Dei Verbum, the clause reads “quam Deus nostrae salutis causa Litteris Sacris consignari voluit.”)

Notice that the word ‘confided’ doesn’t show up here, either in the original Latin or in the English translation (in the original Latin, the word is ‘consignari’, or “to be recorded”). Therefore, your interpretation of the paragraph in the Catechism (which has its own translation of Dei Verbum), centering as it does on the word ‘confided’, really doesn’t hold up to logical scrutiny.

 

[CCC_107]

We are all telling you what CCC 107 literally says. You are telling us it says something different. That is why this thread is getting nowhere.

It might be very clear to you, but you haven’t been able to convince me.

Looking solely at CCC 107 I deduct that it is God’s will to entrust the truth necessary for salvation to the scriptures. I am really interested in God’s will. Are you or do you disagree with this article of faith?

 

[Beryllos]

… this truth in the scriptures saved me. How could you possibly argue with that?

Can’t argue with the Scriptures saving you. Praise God!

 

[CCC_107]

Can’t argue with the Scriptures saving you. Praise God!

CCC 107 states that this saving truth is entrusted to the scriptures. There cannot be more saving truth after being saved. If there is then CCC 107 becomes problematic.

 

[CCC_107]

You’re applying your own definition of ‘confiding’ here, and then demanding that the quotation means what you wish it to mean. That’s not a valid approach.

In any case, what you’re failing to see is that this line is itself a quotation – from the 2nd Vatican Council document Dei Verbum. The English translation of that document, as found on the Vatican website, renders the sentence you’re focusing on as follows:

“Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”

(Moreover, in the original Latin of Dei Verbum, the clause reads “quam Deus nostrae salutis causa Litteris Sacris consignari voluit.”)

Notice that the word ‘confided’ doesn’t show up here, either in the original Latin or in the English translation (in the original Latin, the word is ‘consignari’, or “to be recorded”). Therefore, your interpretation of the paragraph in the Catechism (which has its own translation of Dei Verbum), centering as it does on the word ‘confided’, really doesn’t hold up to logical scrutiny.

Thanks for the explanation of the Latin word. I don’t have an issue with that the saving truth is recorded in the scriptures. Why do you introduce another document into the conversation, when the saving truth is recorded in the scriptures? Please focus on CCC 107

 

[tee_eff_em]

What is that truth that is so interesting, when you can know the truth needed for salvation in the scriptures?

I find the truth of Precisely Which Writings Constitute Sacred Scriptures is very interesting.

I find the truth of Did The Church Come From The Scriptures Or Did The Scriptures Come From The Church is very interesting.

I find many truths very interesting.

I do NOT disagree with CCC 107

tee

 

[CCC_107]

Do you have reason to believe that *that truth which God wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures *is all the truth?

tee

I find the truth of Precisely Which Writings Constitute Sacred Scriptures is very interesting.

I find the truth of Did The Church Come From The Scriptures Or Did The Scriptures Come From The Church is very interesting.

I find many truths very interesting.

I do NOT disagree with CCC 107

tee

Do you get all your saving truth from the scriptures as per CCC 107?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Do you get all your saving truth from the scriptures as per CCC 107?

If only I knew which writings are truth bearing sacred scriptures and which writings are worthless vanity? That is a chin scratcher.

tee

 

[CCC_107]

If only I knew which writings are truth bearing sacred scriptures and which writings are worthless vanity? That is a chin scratcher.

tee

It must be your discernment that there is worthless vanity in the inerrant scriptures. You don’t really believe CCC 107!

 

[tee_eff_em]

It must be your discernment that there is worthless vanity in the inerrant scriptures. You don’t really believe CCC 107!

It must be your discernment that every written word is sacred scriptures.

• The Gospel of John?
• The Epistle of James?
• I Maccabees?
• The Koran?
• The Book of Mormon?
• The Cat in the Hat?
• 50 Shades of Gray?
• …?

Goodness! So much truth God wished to confide to so much sacred scripture!

You must be voracious!

tee