A somewhat confusing Article of Faith

[Telstar]

CCC 107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

Does this article of faith in the authoritative catechism really say that it has been discerned that it is God’s will that the truth is confided to the scriptures? Confiding means entrusting the truth to the scriptures, where it stays.

Catholic Sola Scriptura isn’t taught by the hierarchy, tradition and the rest if the catechism.

Is this article of faith wrong?

No.

I am not presuming that this article is wrong. I wholeheartedly agree with it. Since it has been discerned and published as an article of faith that the truth is confided to the scriptures, then it must be.

Martin Luther was condemned for the same theology. Please explain.

As others have already said, the Scriptures certainly contain the truth, but that article does not in any way conclude that it’s the ONLY source of truth that is taught by the Catholic Church. You are reading something into it that isn’t there.

Would you blabber, if I were to confide something to you? Remember that it has been discerned that it is God’s will that the truth is confided to scripture. You cannot possibly take this article of faith lightly!

Your definition of ‘confided’, as seen in CCC 107, is incorrect. It means that the truth is *entrusted *to the Holy Scriptures, meaning that we can be confident that they are without error, theologically speaking. It DOES NOT say that it is the only source of all truth.

It might be very clear to you, but you haven’t been able to convince me.

Looking solely at CCC 107 I deduct that it is God’s will to entrust the truth necessary for salvation to the scriptures. I am really interested in God’s will. Are you or do you disagree with this article of faith?

We have an entire Catechism that must be taken into consideration before drawing any conclusions on what the Catholic Church teaches. One small article in that entire document does not stand on its own.

I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34 (all emphasis mine)

Clearly, in the above section of the Catechism, the contents of the Gospel and Apostolic teaching was not just confined to writings of Scripture, alone. The Church has used both methods used by the Apostles, in teaching their followers, to determine what constituted the whole Deposit of Faith. There is real truth contained in all of the teachings of the Apostles. Not everything was written in Holy Scripture. Even St. John said that the world could not contain all of the books that could be written about what Jesus did, or what He taught them. The New Testament only contains the basics of what Jesus taught, and highlights from the story of His public life for the three years that He preached. It is certainly not the whole story. If we limit our understanding of Jesus to the Bible alone, then we are depriving ourselves of the greater portion of His teaching that is contained in Sacred Tradition. If that’s enough for you, then so be it.

 

[Beryllos]

I’m heading out, friends, to threads that have some dialogue.

 

[CCC_107]

No.

As others have already said, the Scriptures certainly contain the truth, but that article does not in any way conclude that it’s the ONLY source of truth that is taught by the Catholic Church. You are reading something into it that isn’t there.

Your definition of ‘confided’, as seen in CCC 107, is incorrect. It means that the truth is *entrusted *to the Holy Scriptures, meaning that we can be confident that they are without error, theologically speaking. It DOES NOT say that it is the only source of all truth.

We have an entire Catechism that must be taken into consideration before drawing any conclusions on what the Catholic Church teaches. One small article in that entire document does not stand on its own.

I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34 (all emphasis mine)

Clearly, in the above section of the Catechism, the contents of the Gospel and Apostolic teaching was not just confined to writings of Scripture, alone. The Church has used both methods used by the Apostles, in teaching their followers, to determine what constituted the whole Deposit of Faith. There is real truth contained in all of the teachings of the Apostles. Not everything was written in Holy Scripture. Even St. John said that the world could not contain all of the books that could be written about what Jesus did, or what He taught them. The New Testament only contains the basics of what Jesus taught, and highlights from the story of His public life for the three years that He preached. It is certainly not the whole story. If we limit our understanding of Jesus to the Bible alone, then we are depriving ourselves of the greater portion of His teaching that is contained in Sacred Tradition. If that’s enough for you, then so be it.

CCC 107 states that the saving truth is confided/entrusted to the scriptures. There seems to be more truth, but that cannot be saving truth according to CCC 107. Can you specify what that non-saving truth and what’s the use of this non-saving truth?

 

[CCC_107]

It must be your discernment that every written word is sacred scriptures.

• The Gospel of John?
• The Epistle of James?
• I Maccabees?
• The Koran?
• The Book of Mormon?
• The Cat in the Hat?
• 50 Shades of Gray?
• …?

Goodness! So much truth God wished to confide to so much sacred scripture!

You must be voracious!

tee

Thanks for finally revealing what your non-saving truth is.

I know what inspired scripture is, as His sheep know His voice.

 

[CCC_107]

View attachment 21640

Pleased to meet you and thanks for sharing your image.

 

[Robyn_p]

We agree that everything in Scripture IS true and necessary for our salvation. That is why it is God’s will that this complete truth is entrusted to the scriptures. Otherwise it couldn’t possibly be sufficient for salvation.

But see, nowhere does CCC 107 say what you just said. What is in there IS there for our salvation, but that doesn’t mean it’s sufficient in and of itself. It needs to be interpreted in light of Tradition. Scripture literally is just the written portion of Tradition according to the Church. We can’t separate them from each other.

After that where we part company, as this truth in the scriptures saved me. How could you possibly argue with that?

I can’t argue with your experience, but I have to ask, don’t you think the canon of Scripture itself is necessary for our salvation?? I mean, without it, then there’s no way to even know for sure which books are the ones God entrusted this salvific truth to and which are just purely human in origin. That seems like a pretty important piece of truth to me. Insanely important. The very foundation of Christianity depends on it. And yet, it’s not found anywhere in the Bible itself. The only way we can know these books are the inspired word of God is to look to…Tradition. :yup:

So even if you were saved entirely by the Scriptures alone, without any exposure to Christian belief or practice prior, you still were relying on a truth not found in Scripture. That those 66 books (73 for us, but that’s another thread) that you were reading were actually the Word of God. In other words, you were relying on Tradition when you were saved.

Looks like there are some truths that are necessary for our salvation that God entrusted to something other than Sacred Scripture after all. If you accept the Bible as the written Word of God, then you implicitly believe this. So why can’t there be other things as well?

 

[CCC_107]

But see, nowhere does CCC 107 say what you just said. What is in there IS there for our salvation, but that doesn’t mean it’s sufficient in and of itself. It needs to be interpreted in light of Tradition. Scripture literally is just the written portion of Tradition according to the Church. We can’t separate them from each other.

I can’t argue with your experience, but I have to ask, don’t you think the canon of Scripture itself is necessary for our salvation?? I mean, without it, then there’s no way to even know for sure which books are the ones God entrusted this salvific truth to and which are just purely human in origin. That seems like a pretty important piece of truth to me. Insanely important. The very foundation of Christianity depends on it. And yet, it’s not found anywhere in the Bible itself. The only way we can know these books are the inspired word of God is to look to…Tradition. :yup:

So even if you were saved entirely by the Scriptures alone, without any exposure to Christian belief or practice prior, you still were relying on a truth not found in Scripture. That those 66 books (73 for us, but that’s another thread) that you were reading were actually the Word of God. In other words, you were relying on Tradition when you were saved.

Looks like there are some truths that are necessary for our salvation that God entrusted to something other than Sacred Scripture after all. If you accept the Bible as the written Word of God, then you implicitly believe this. So why can’t there be other things as well?

CCC #107 “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

It has been discerned that it is GOD’s will that the truth necessary for salvation has been entrusted to the scriptures.You disagree with CCC 107, an article of faith, and need more truth!

If the truth for salvation is entrusted to the scriptures as per CCC 107, then this paragraph contradicts itself, when another source of truth is needed to get to the word of God in scripture. Are you a Roman Catholic?

 

[Darryl_B]

Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”

 

[CCC_107]

Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”

I agree wholeheartedly and that is why I listen to the indwelling Holy Spirit, who enlightens what is written and who also told me about CCC 107, which seems to be a problem to many here.

Who do you listen to for the truth of salvation?

 

[Darryl_B]

I agree wholeheartedly and that is why I listen to the indwelling Holy Spirit, who enlightens what is written and who also told me about CCC 107, which seems to be a problem to many here.

Who do you listen to for the truth of salvation?

Sorry my friend that is simply not true. If you have never been to a church and listened to a protestant pastor, if you have never purchased and read a book written by a protestant book publishing pastor, if you have never listened to your friends and family, in pursuit of wisdom and understanding. Then and only then can you say that you “listen to the indwelling Holy Spirit”.

But the fact of the matter is you rely on others to transmit truth to you and then apply it. They will tell you how to read the Scriptures, they will tell you how to interpret Scriptures, they will tell you their theology, their soterology, their eschatology, their personal verdict on faith and morals, and you will formulate your own personal verdict as you feel appropriate.

Unless of course you live in a vacuum, and there is just you, a printed copy of Sacred Scripture, and your personal Revealer but since you only tell me what is Truth, eg “CCC107” (which yes you really do not understand what it is saying), I think maybe you have progressed rather quickly from listener to doctor.

 

[CCC_107]

Sorry my friend that is simply not true. If you have never been to a church and listened to a protestant pastor, if you have never purchased and read a book written by a protestant book publishing pastor, if you have never listened to your friends and family, in pursuit of wisdom and understanding. Then and only then can you say that you “listen to the indwelling Holy Spirit”.

But the fact of the matter is you rely on others to transmit truth to you and then apply it. They will tell you how to read the Scriptures, they will tell you how to interpret Scriptures, they will tell you their theology, their soterology, their eschatology, their personal verdict on faith and morals, and you will formulate your own personal verdict as you feel appropriate.

Unless of course you live in a vacuum, and there is just you, a printed copy of Sacred Scripture, and your personal Revealer but since you only tell me what is Truth, eg “CCC107” (which yes you really do not understand what it is saying), I think maybe you have progressed rather quickly from listener to doctor.

Thanks for telling me as an authority… (what you aren’t an authority as you have to seek interpretation from your superiors), that I don’t understand. I like to differ. His sheep hear His voice and you need the voice of your superiors to tell you what they have heard.

CCC 107 is correct in that the truth is entrusted to the scriptures. You are fighting your own article of faith.

2 Corinthians 10: 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

You cannot do that, as your only option is to make your thoughts obedient to your church.

 

[Gorgias]

Thanks for the explanation of the Latin word. I don’t have an issue with that the saving truth is recorded in the scriptures.

Why do you introduce another document into the conversation, when the saving truth is recorded in the scriptures? Please focus on CCC 107

I am focusing on CCC 107… and I’m not introducing another document: CCC 107 quotes Dei Verbum in the passage which you are citing to us. You’re pointing us to Dei Verbum by your citation of that part of CCC 107.

Why are you unwilling to focus on what Dei Verbum says, when it’s the basis for what you claim to believe (as quoted in CCC 107)? After all, you’re the one who claims to believe what’s written there!

 

[Church_Militant]

It might be very clear to you, but you haven’t been able to convince me.

Looking solely at CCC 107 I deduct that it is God’s will to entrust the truth necessary for salvation to the scriptures. I am really interested in God’s will. Are you or do you disagree with this article of faith?

Which is 99% of what is wrong with most n-C religions. You take a single verse of scripture or (as in this case) a single item from a document and force your agenda upon it (again as in this case) you pursue the agenda to promote Sola Scriptura (See It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II) ) and further, to attempt to proselytize Catholics away from their faith.

It’s pretty clear what you are doing, but it doesn’t hold water since, 1. there is no contradiction in the teachings of the Catholic Church, and 2. there is much more to authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching on this than you are willing to discuss… Take note of this long before your cited, agenda driven selection.

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] *Tradition *transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH
The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church
84 The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46
The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

 

[Church_Militant]

It is very clear that you pursue an agenda here since you choose to argue that the Church teaches Sola Scriptura in contradiction of her other teachings but that is not true. Again…lets have a look at your citation in context and we can plainly see that you have cherry picked something to seek to disturb the faith of faithful Catholics…but that isn’t going to happen so just http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/1sm191coke.gif

ARTICLE 3
SACRED SCRIPTURE
I. CHRIST - THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE
101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63
102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64
You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65
103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.66
104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68
II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE
105God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69
"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70
106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71
107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72
108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

Context is everything. You’ll find it here…

 

[fhansen]

CCC 107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

Does this article of faith in the authoritative catechism really say that it has been discerned that it is God’s will that the truth is confided to the scriptures? Confiding means entrusting the truth to the scriptures, where it stays.

Catholic Sola Scriptura isn’t taught by the hierarchy, tradition and the rest if the catechism.

Is this article of faith wrong?

The Church has always taught that Scripture is “materially sufficient” in terms of containing all truth, in some manner or another, to one degree or another, regarding the salvation of man. The matter is there IOW. However the Church has the vital role of correctly discerning that truth, from both Scripture as well as Tradition, and propagating it.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Thanks for finally revealing what your non-saving truth is.

I cannot dignify with an answer a statement which I do not believe I made. :tsktsk:

I can only repeat my actual question:

I find the truth of Precisely Which Writings Constitute Sacred Scriptures is very interesting.

If only I knew which writings are truth bearing sacred scriptures and which writings are worthless vanity?

I know what inspired scripture is, as His sheep know His voice.

Have you always been one of His sheep, who knows His voice?

Am I one of His sheep, that I too may know His voice?

Is the Mussulman one of His sheep?

Is the Morman one of His sheep?

Is the atheist/hedonist one of His sheep?

These are interesting questions.

tee

 

[ignatius777]

CCC 107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

Does this article of faith in the authoritative catechism really say that it has been discerned that it is God’s will that the truth is confided to the scriptures? Confiding means entrusting the truth to the scriptures, where it stays.

Catholic Sola Scriptura isn’t taught by the hierarchy, tradition and the rest if the catechism.

Is this article of faith wrong?

I am not sure what you think the problem is.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I am not sure what you think the problem is.

:twocents:
I think at least part of the problem is that she is trying to make the word *confide *to mean confined.
:twocents:

tee

 

[CB_Catholic]

:twocents:
I think at least part of the problem is that she is trying to make the word confide to mean confined.
:twocents:

tee

No, the problem is that she/he actually knows what we are saying, is pretending not to understand in order to promote her/his agenda of sola scriptura. In reality, all of this is a deception intended to proselytize Catholics and bait us. I am going to ask the moderators to close this useless thread.

 

[ignatius777]

:twocents:
I think at least part of the problem is that she is trying to make the word confide to mean confined.
:twocents:

tee

Yes. I think she is trying to make scripture say something it doesn’t.