A somewhat confusing Article of Faith

[Gorgias]

My option I have made very clear which is to demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10: 5

Keep reading, brother: “and we are ready to punish every disobedience, once your obedience is complete.” (2 Cor 10:6)

Is your obedience complete? How can it be, if you are attempting to tear down the Church that Christ himself founded? How can it be, if you persist in maintaining fellowship with a church founded not by Christ, but by a man, a millennium and a half after His earthly ministry? Turn from your pretentions that set themselves up against God, and join His Church on earth!

 

[CCC_107]

It is value to me in context, it is just not ABOUT me, it promotes authority of the Catholic Church when read in context. Is it school holidays?

casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ 2 Cor 10:5

How do you bring the thoughts of others, or even shared thoughts into the obedience of Christ? You really have my full attention now. I would love to be able to bring some thoughts people have to Christ.

 

[Gorgias]

Correct me if I am wrong, but CCC 107 clearly states that it is God’s will that the truth needed for salvation is entrusted and sealed in the scriptures. I wholeheartedly agree!

No – it states only that “that truth which God wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures” is transmitted inerrantly. That truth which God wished to confide elsewhere – for example, in Sacred Tradition – is confided there. Not “all truth”, not “the truth”, but “that truth”.

 

[CCC_107]

Keep reading the definition; don’t stop there. Consigno means “to seal, to vouch or authenticate, to record”. The Bible, then, is sealed by God – that is, He places His seal on it to vouch that it is His record of His self-revelation.

Since you believe in Catholic teaching, isn’t time you finally enter into the Catholic Church and give up your other, non-Catholic beliefs?

Again we totally agree. If you can provide that seal for other sources you consider to contain the truth, then I will certainly have to consider becoming a Roman Catholic. Awaiting your knowledgeable response with great expectation.

At this stage I don’t seem to be entertaining non-Catholic beliefs, as CCC 107 sums up what Catholicism should be all about.

 

[Darryl_B]

casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ 2 Cor 10:5

How do you bring the thoughts of others, or even shared thoughts into the obedience of Christ? You really have my full attention now. I would love to be able to bring some thoughts people have to Christ.

Context. Did you listen.

 

[CCC_107]

My option I have made very clear which is to demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5

Keep reading, brother: “and we are ready to punish every disobedience, once your obedience is complete.” (2 Cor 10:6)

Is your obedience complete? How can it be, if you are attempting to tear down the Church that Christ himself founded? How can it be, if you persist in maintaining fellowship with a church founded not by Christ, but by a man, a millennium and a half after His earthly ministry? Turn from your pretentions that set themselves up against God, and join His Church on earth!

I fully support CCC 107 and thank you for your most valuable contribution you have made to my understanding. Again I must tell you that I uphold what is written for our salvation in the scriptures. How you turn that into disobedience is beyond my realm of understanding. Can I please draw on your great knowledge and ask if you could explain why this is so?

 

[Darryl_B]

I fully support CCC 107 and thank you for your most valuable contribution you have made to my understanding. Again I must tell you that I uphold what is written for our salvation in the scriptures. How you turn that into disobedience is beyond my realm of understanding. Can I please draw on your great knowledge and ask if you could explain why this is so?

My friend, did you not listen to me. I was protestant for 18 years, but your style of protestantism is embarrassing to my protestant history. This is not protestant.

 

[Gorgias]

Again we totally agree. If you can provide that seal for other sources you consider to contain the truth, then I will certainly have to consider becoming a Roman Catholic.

Absolutely! Jesus said to Peter, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:19), and to the eleven Apostles, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, … teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Mt 28:19, 20).

Jesus explicitly gave authority to Peter and commissioned him and the other Apostles to teach. That is the ‘seal’ that you mention. ‘Sacred Tradition’ is nothing more (and nothing less!) than Apostolic Teaching – which, as you now are aware, has been explicitly commanded by Christ.

I look forward to reading your announcement that you’ve joined an RCIA program in order to enter into the Catholic Church.

Again I must tell you that I uphold what is written for our salvation in the scriptures. How you turn that into disobedience is beyond my realm of understanding. Can I please draw on your great knowledge and ask if you could explain why this is so?

Certainly. Thank you for asking, and inviting me to witness to you.

You have stated that you believe what the Catholic Church teaches. You have also stated that you are not a member of the Catholic Church; moreover, you are attempting to teach us what the Church teaches, but are teaching something in opposition to Church teachings (namely, that the only source of authority is Scripture).

This means that you are following the example of Aaron and Miriam (see Numbers 12), murmuring against the authority of the Church, refusing to submit to that authority, and placing yourself in that position of authority, over against Jesus’ Church. This is the very definition of ‘disobedience’. I urge to you repent, turn to the Church which Christ founded, and submit to His holy will. I’ll be praying for you…

 

[CCC_107]

Absolutely! Jesus said to Peter, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:19), and to the eleven Apostles, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, … teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Mt 28:19, 20).

CCC107 comes to mind.

Jesus explicitly gave authority to Peter and commissioned him and the other Apostles to teach. That is the ‘seal’ that you mention. ‘Sacred Tradition’ is nothing more (and nothing less!) than Apostolic Teaching – which, as you now are aware, has been explicitly commanded by Christ.

Again CCC 107

I look forward to reading your announcement that you’ve joined an RCIA program in order to enter into the Catholic Church.

Certainly. Thank you for asking, and inviting me to witness to you.

For a moment I thought that I was run over by a bulldozer. I need time to capture my thoughts and make them obedient to Christ. I can tell the difference between an assembly and the living God.

You have stated that you believe what the Catholic Church teaches. You have also stated that you are not a member of the Catholic Church; moreover, you are attempting to teach us what the Church teaches, but are teaching something in opposition to Church teachings (namely, that the only source of authority is Scripture).

I have not promoted anything but CCC 107, which is the truth. CCC 107 states that it is God’s will that the truth necessary for salvation is entrusted and sealed in the scriptures. Convince me that more truth is needed and please explain precisely what that truth is, so I can make that thought obedient to Christ.

This means that you are following the example of Aaron and Miriam (see Numbers 12), murmuring against the authority of the Church, refusing to submit to that authority, and placing yourself in that position of authority, over against Jesus’ Church. This is the very definition of ‘disobedience’. I urge to you repent, turn to the Church which Christ founded, and submit to His holy will. I’ll be praying for you…

I am not murmuring at all against your church. Your hierarchy has discerned that the truth necessary for salvation is in the scriptures, as that is the will of God. That will of God is the only authority which matters to me. Are you disagreeable with that as well?

 

[Aloysium]

There have been many excellent replies addressing the OP’s confusion.
If one misunderstands scripture, it seems evident, that the problem will continue when scripture is used as a source for clarification.
As in the post above, a personal reflection might be useful.
The Holy Spirit brought me here, where through His graces, I humbly state that my knowledge and understanding of God and my relationship with Him has grown in ways I would never have imagined.
Most of us are here as members of God’s church on earth helping one another grow in faith, ever closer to Him.
What I observe: The OP enters this home, twisting words and refusing the truth, a Pharisee engaging with others as he, within himself, distorts Christ’s teaching, cut off from the inspired wisdom of the many who have travelled this Path. Alone in his discernment, his own opinion, he holds to be the word of our Lord. The implementation of God’s will is nowhere to be found in the oft repeated phrases.
It is within the totality of participation in the Church founded by Jesus, that we grow in the true one Way.
On re-read this all sounds very harsh. A boil must be lanced for healing to occur.

 

[Gorgias]

CCC107 comes to mind.

Again CCC 107

CCC 107 says that God’s truth is in Scripture; it does not say that God’s truth is only in Scripture. Please re-read it. Perhaps you can show me where it says that Scripture is the only font of God’s truth?

I need time to capture my thoughts and make them obedient to Christ.

Please take your time. Jesus – and His Church – are waiting for you.

I can tell the difference between an assembly and the living God.

Why do you insist there is a difference, as if the living God is not found in His ekklesia? Jesus founded it; He commanded His Apostles to make all people disciples of it; … and you refuse to enter it?

Convince me that more truth is needed and please explain precisely what that truth is, so I can make that thought obedient to Christ.

I have demonstrated to you – from Christ’s very words! found in Scripture! – that His truth is found in His commands, which he taught the Apostles and which He commanded the Apostles to teach to us!

You’re big on definitions, and therefore, I provided you with the definition of ‘Sacred Tradition’, as Catholics use the term – that is, it is ‘Apostolic Teaching’. I cannot convince you; only the Holy Spirit can convince one whose heart is hardened against His Church. Like I said, I’ll be praying for you.

I am not murmuring at all against your church. Your hierarchy has discerned that the truth necessary for salvation is in the scriptures, as that is the will of God. That will of God is the only authority which matters to me. Are you disagreeable with that as well?

If the ‘will of God’ is the only authority which matters to you, then you are telling us – plainly, clearly, and explicitly – that you do not believe in Jesus’ word, since He says in Scripture that “all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me” (Mt 28:18), just before He exercises that authority in the commissioning of His Apostles. If you refuse to follow the authoritative command of Christ, it means that you do not believe He has authority, and you are following something that you think is of Christ, but is not. Remember, “not all who cry ‘Lord, Lord!’” (Mt 7:21) – if you want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, become a member of Christ’s own Church! I’m praying for you…

 

[Church_Militant]

I note that this person has not bothered to respond to my posts which show the context of his citation, so I believe that what we have here is simply someone in pursuit of an agenda and completely uninterested in real discussion or dialog.

The context of that citation from the catechism shows clearly that it in no way supports Sola Scriptura, since the Bible itself nowhere does so, as I have also shown.

Essentially…if we do not agree with their out-of-context and twisted interpretation then we are lacking in comprehension, or some other such specious and insulting remark.

Their later scripture citations indicate that their agenda is one of contempt for our Catholic faith and disrespect to us as Catholic members here.

I think we’ve spent enough time explaining and defending this issue and I, for one, am off to find someone who actually has a willingness to dialog.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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