J
JM3
Guest
However, you cannot refuse to go to a ‘legal’ Mass to attend an ‘illegal’ Mass. That’s my understanding, anyway.
- Status
M
Mike30
Guest
As long as you are attending due to a love for and devotion to the old Mass and not because you adhere to a schismatic attitude towards the Church is what is required to attend an SSPX Mass. The Church does caution however that regular attendance at SSPX Masses may lead to developing a shsismatic attitude, so regular attendance is discouraged but not prohibited. The Eucharist they confect is valid and you can fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending their Masses. If there is an approved indult Mass in your area however you cannot choose to go to the SSPX Chapel instead of the indult Mass. If there is no approved indult Mass in your area and you are attached to the old Mass by love and devotion then you may attend the Mass at the SSPX Chapel.However, you cannot refuse to go to a ‘legal’ Mass to attend an ‘illegal’ Mass. That’s my understanding, anyway.
I hope that answers any questions.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Mike, someone asked what I’m about to ask in another thread, but do you have a link Vatican documentation stating this? I can’t find anything either.
Thanks.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Admittedly the FSSPX priests have been in suspension since the 70’s but I have these from my notes:
LETTER OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY
Under signature of Silvio Cardinal Oddi, President (March 17, 1984)
Code:
[In answer to a family attending Mass at an SSPX chapel as to
whether such attendance fulfilled her obligation for Sunday Mass,]
"According to the New Code of Canon Law, 'The obligation of
assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a
Catholic rite....' I hope that settles your doubts."LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION “ECCLESIA DEI”
Under Signature of Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary
May 28, 1996; repeated in Protocol N. 236/98 of March 6, 1998
Code:
"It is true that participation in the Mass and sacraments at the
chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute
'formal adherence to the schism.'"
Code:
1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by
attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of Saint Pius
X.
2. ...If your intention is simply to participate in Mass according to
the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.
3. It would seem that a modest contribution to the collection at Mass
could be justified.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Thank you Pro!
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
There are two problems with these letters that are put forward as a defense for attendance of SSPX Masses,
These letters are responses to queries from individuals. The actual letters being answered by these have never been made public so we do not really know what is being ask. Also when such an answer is given it is to the individual asking the question, such an answer is not a blanket answer for all of the faithful. This is like my asking to be dispensed from some obligation and receiving the dispensation and then making this dispensation public and telling everyone that they are dispensed because I was. It does not work that way.
M
Mike30
Guest
I would think it very clear what was being asked in the letters that were written if you read the responses that were sent. I would also submit that if an answer is given by the Church as was given in these situations that they would in fact pertain to everyone. Why would they not? The conditions that were laid down seemed pretty clear cut with no ambiguity and at least to me seemed to make perfect sense.
Your analogy doesn’t really seem to be on target.
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Sorry but no. With out knowing the questions being asked and the context that they were asked you can not apply the response to everyone. If the Church would have meant for the reply to have been to everyone then they would have issued the response in such a manner that it was clear that it was for everyone.
I find it very suspicious that the responses have been widely circulated on the internet but the original queries are no where to be found. That leads me to believe that there is something in those original queries that make it obvious that the replies would not cover everyone. Why else not circulate them?
M
Mike30
Guest
So you would say that it is not allowed at all except to the person or persons to whom the letters were originally sent?
F
freshwind
Guest
Hopefully the sentence below answers the question?
Catholic Laymen Incur No Penalty
Following this quote in the German interview, Cardinal Castrillón emphasized again what he said in the March 17 interview, his fearing the possibility of schism and heresy, quoting St. Jerome. However, the fact remains that the lay faithful who attend SSPX masses to fulfill their Sunday obligation are not sinning nor incurring any canonical penalty by doing so.
FULL ARTICLE
renewamerica.com/columns/mershon/070410
is there something in this that I missed? seems it has been posted numerous times in the past and the same questions keep coming up?
not sure, but I find nothing newer to recant this…
and for a Bishop to tell his flock to stay away, could it be the individuals in that area?
I am sure you will find good and not so good SSPX chapels?
The one I attended (my only visit) spent an awful lot of time invoking prayers of Mary and the saints for the Holy Father and the good of the whole Church…
Catholic Laymen Incur No Penalty
Following this quote in the German interview, Cardinal Castrillón emphasized again what he said in the March 17 interview, his fearing the possibility of schism and heresy, quoting St. Jerome. However, the fact remains that the lay faithful who attend SSPX masses to fulfill their Sunday obligation are not sinning nor incurring any canonical penalty by doing so.
FULL ARTICLE
renewamerica.com/columns/mershon/070410
is there something in this that I missed? seems it has been posted numerous times in the past and the same questions keep coming up?
not sure, but I find nothing newer to recant this…
and for a Bishop to tell his flock to stay away, could it be the individuals in that area?
I am sure you will find good and not so good SSPX chapels?
The one I attended (my only visit) spent an awful lot of time invoking prayers of Mary and the saints for the Holy Father and the good of the whole Church…
C
Cat
Guest
It seems to me that the main reason that most Catholics attend SSPX Masses is because they love the traditional Latin Mass. Is that a fair assessment of most Catholics and the SSPX?
I realize that some Catholics reject Vatican II and have more separatist motives for getting involved with the SSPX. But I like to think that most Catholics are happy to remain loyal to the Pope, the Vatican, and the Church–they just want a Latin Mass. Fair?
It also seems to me by attending a SSPX Mass or getting involved with an SSPX chapel on a regular basis, a Catholic is “giving up” on ever seeing a TLM in regular Catholic parishes in his/her town/city. They are admitting to themselves and others that things will never change, and sending the message to their friends and family that this specialty group, the SSPX, has more efficacy and offers more sanctifying graces than the regular Catholic Church and their own Pope-appointed bishop.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to be like the woman that Jesus praises because she continues to “pester” the judge for her petition–remember? Finally the judge gave in to her!
Wouldn’t it make more sense, rather than “escaping” a parish that offers the OF Mass and has all kinds of “modern” practices, to instead stick it out and continue to petition the priest and the diocese to offer the TLM at the parish? Wouldn’t it be better to be “salt” and “light” in the OF parish rather than giving up on them and attending the Mass of your choice?
That would of course mean being sociable and making friends, networking among the parishioners and seeking out those who are like-minded who would also prefer the TLM, as well as buttonholing parishioners who are not interested themselves, but who are sympathetic and would support a TLM in a parish, and also working to persuade those of us who are not really interested in a TLM to at least support it in the parish with our words and monies.
(I do support the idea of a TLM, but since our city has daily TLM and weekend TLMs at a nearby oratory, I’m not in favor of seeing our parish offer one because our OF Masses are already overflowing, and our priests are already way busy and our offerings are already earmarked for various parish and diocescan expenses.)
It just seems to me that going to an SSPX chapel is “giving up” and taking the easy way out and doing something that feels good for you. I personally have a hard time with this. I don’t like “giving up” and I don’t like to see others who believe in a good cause “give up” so easily.
Why not instead dig in and do all the work and eventually, earn the joy of seeing the TLM become a reality in a regular parish that is fully recognized by the Vatican? Wouldn’t that be a wonderful legacy to leave behind? It might take decades, yes, but what an accomplishment for the Lord and His Church! All the people who attend the TLM through the years would be greatly blessed by all the work and effort and agony that you put into getting it established. And the Catholic who does this work would become more like Jesus as they set aside their own personal preferences and make the sacrifices necessary to bring about a good work.
If nothing else, even if the TLM is never established, perhaps the work would bring about good changes in the way the parish does Masses (e.g., more traditional and ancient music, more use of Latin, etc.), and eliminate the liturgical abuses that are not good for the Church and distressing to the Holy Spirit.
I realize that if you’re sick or injured, that perhaps you do not have the physical strength to do this kind of work, and all you want to do is go to the Mass of your preference, and that’s OK.
But for all others who are reasonably healthy, even for those who are elderly, why not dedicate yourself to the difficult task, do the hard and discouraging work, face the obstacles, and persevere until these obstacles are eliminated and the TLM is established on a firm basis in the parish?
After all, many saints persevered through much more difficult and horrific situations. Many of you have read the bio of St. Teresa of Avila, and know of her constant trials in trying to reform the Carmelites. Wouldn’t it be good to be like her? Wouldn’t that be the example that we want to set for our children and teenagers? Why would we want to teach our children and teenagers to “look out for #1 and do what you want to do and the heck with everyone else.” ?? I wouldn’t want to teach my children that message. I would want to teach them to do as Sir Winston Churchhill said so well–never, never, never, never never give in. Something worth having is worth suffering for.
In fact, I DID teach my children to stick to their guns and dig in and work for what they want. When my younger daughter started coaching synchronized skating teams at a skating club in her college city, there were two small recreational teams. Eight years later, the club has 8 full teams, including five competitive teams, and the club has earned spots at Nationals three times, and last year, won a Bronze medal at Nationals. Those eight years were hard and discouraging at times, but my daughter stuck with it and has been able to see her hard work (and that of many others in the club) pay off.
And that’s just figure skating–a temporal pleasure! This thread is about the Holy Mass!
It seems to me that if the TLM is really worth spltting with your own parish and going to a splinter organization and risking developing sedavacantist attitudes in your own soul, then it’s worth working and suffering for in a regular diocescan parish.
We’ve seen several parishes in our diocese begin offering the TLM since the motu. It can be done. It should be done. Why not be the one who does the work to make it happen?
Or are my feelings about this totally warped? Am I being “Protestant” again to say that Christians shouldn’t give up on a worthwhile pursuit?
I realize that some Catholics reject Vatican II and have more separatist motives for getting involved with the SSPX. But I like to think that most Catholics are happy to remain loyal to the Pope, the Vatican, and the Church–they just want a Latin Mass. Fair?
It also seems to me by attending a SSPX Mass or getting involved with an SSPX chapel on a regular basis, a Catholic is “giving up” on ever seeing a TLM in regular Catholic parishes in his/her town/city. They are admitting to themselves and others that things will never change, and sending the message to their friends and family that this specialty group, the SSPX, has more efficacy and offers more sanctifying graces than the regular Catholic Church and their own Pope-appointed bishop.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to be like the woman that Jesus praises because she continues to “pester” the judge for her petition–remember? Finally the judge gave in to her!
Wouldn’t it make more sense, rather than “escaping” a parish that offers the OF Mass and has all kinds of “modern” practices, to instead stick it out and continue to petition the priest and the diocese to offer the TLM at the parish? Wouldn’t it be better to be “salt” and “light” in the OF parish rather than giving up on them and attending the Mass of your choice?
That would of course mean being sociable and making friends, networking among the parishioners and seeking out those who are like-minded who would also prefer the TLM, as well as buttonholing parishioners who are not interested themselves, but who are sympathetic and would support a TLM in a parish, and also working to persuade those of us who are not really interested in a TLM to at least support it in the parish with our words and monies.
(I do support the idea of a TLM, but since our city has daily TLM and weekend TLMs at a nearby oratory, I’m not in favor of seeing our parish offer one because our OF Masses are already overflowing, and our priests are already way busy and our offerings are already earmarked for various parish and diocescan expenses.)
It just seems to me that going to an SSPX chapel is “giving up” and taking the easy way out and doing something that feels good for you. I personally have a hard time with this. I don’t like “giving up” and I don’t like to see others who believe in a good cause “give up” so easily.
Why not instead dig in and do all the work and eventually, earn the joy of seeing the TLM become a reality in a regular parish that is fully recognized by the Vatican? Wouldn’t that be a wonderful legacy to leave behind? It might take decades, yes, but what an accomplishment for the Lord and His Church! All the people who attend the TLM through the years would be greatly blessed by all the work and effort and agony that you put into getting it established. And the Catholic who does this work would become more like Jesus as they set aside their own personal preferences and make the sacrifices necessary to bring about a good work.
If nothing else, even if the TLM is never established, perhaps the work would bring about good changes in the way the parish does Masses (e.g., more traditional and ancient music, more use of Latin, etc.), and eliminate the liturgical abuses that are not good for the Church and distressing to the Holy Spirit.
I realize that if you’re sick or injured, that perhaps you do not have the physical strength to do this kind of work, and all you want to do is go to the Mass of your preference, and that’s OK.
But for all others who are reasonably healthy, even for those who are elderly, why not dedicate yourself to the difficult task, do the hard and discouraging work, face the obstacles, and persevere until these obstacles are eliminated and the TLM is established on a firm basis in the parish?
After all, many saints persevered through much more difficult and horrific situations. Many of you have read the bio of St. Teresa of Avila, and know of her constant trials in trying to reform the Carmelites. Wouldn’t it be good to be like her? Wouldn’t that be the example that we want to set for our children and teenagers? Why would we want to teach our children and teenagers to “look out for #1 and do what you want to do and the heck with everyone else.” ?? I wouldn’t want to teach my children that message. I would want to teach them to do as Sir Winston Churchhill said so well–never, never, never, never never give in. Something worth having is worth suffering for.
In fact, I DID teach my children to stick to their guns and dig in and work for what they want. When my younger daughter started coaching synchronized skating teams at a skating club in her college city, there were two small recreational teams. Eight years later, the club has 8 full teams, including five competitive teams, and the club has earned spots at Nationals three times, and last year, won a Bronze medal at Nationals. Those eight years were hard and discouraging at times, but my daughter stuck with it and has been able to see her hard work (and that of many others in the club) pay off.
And that’s just figure skating–a temporal pleasure! This thread is about the Holy Mass!
It seems to me that if the TLM is really worth spltting with your own parish and going to a splinter organization and risking developing sedavacantist attitudes in your own soul, then it’s worth working and suffering for in a regular diocescan parish.
We’ve seen several parishes in our diocese begin offering the TLM since the motu. It can be done. It should be done. Why not be the one who does the work to make it happen?
Or are my feelings about this totally warped? Am I being “Protestant” again to say that Christians shouldn’t give up on a worthwhile pursuit?
J
JReducation
Guest
This does not apply to the SSPX, because they are Catholic. The code is speaking about non-Catholic clergy. The only non-Catholic clergy that have valid sacraments are the Orthodox.
This is correct. You can’t pass up an EF in your diocese to attend one at SSPXHowever, you cannot refuse to go to a ‘legal’ Mass to attend an ‘illegal’ Mass. That’s my understanding, anyway.
What Brother is saying is correct. One has to know the question. Sometimes, people word their questions in such a way that the answer may be one, whereas if you word it slightly differently, the answer is another. One has to make sure that the original question is the same that one is asking.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
P
ProVobis
Guest
Mike, there are no more “indult” Masses. All priests theoretically can say the Latin Mass without any special approvals. Any suspended priest, however, is not allowed to say any Mass, OF or EF.
That said, I happen to go to an EF at a EF/OF parish. There is no doubt that there is tension in the air everytime I walk in. Those from a previous Mass will linger around the pews and talk. The parish bulletin lists the OF readings for the day. I hear mocking of Latin. Etc. Basically the EFers are still treated like second-class people. This isn’t good. The Latin Mass will never flourish under those circumstances.
P
PacoG
Guest
Maybe I am being too simplistic…but isn’t anyone bothered by the arrogance and disobedience of the SSPX and it’s priests?
What the SSPX do is the same but worse. Their “unlicensed practice” endangers souls and is disobedient to the institution they claim to serve.
I am sorry. But our tolerance of the behavior of SSPX should be waning. We should pray that they come back into the fold. However, they are disobedient and bombastic. And in the end, they do more to split the Church and cause dissension.
- Although they are suspended, to go around saying Mass and confecting the sacraments. There would be outrage (and rightfully so) if priests who were suspended (and being openly disobedient) for other reasons were doing the same thing. If it were a group of priests who were laicized so they could marry who were doing this, there wouldn’t be a discussion.
- Their priests go into dioceses and say Mass and confect the sacraments without the permission of the local ordinary. Their suspended bishops confirm and ordain and erect parishes, missions, convents, and schools without the local ordinary’s permission. Agree with him or not, like him or not, the local legally constituted bishop is owed our loyalty and obedience.
- They mislead troubled souls by leading people to believe that their confessions are valid. Absent the local bishop’s grant of faculties or exigent circumstances, their priests lack jurisdiction to hear confessions.
What the SSPX do is the same but worse. Their “unlicensed practice” endangers souls and is disobedient to the institution they claim to serve.
I am sorry. But our tolerance of the behavior of SSPX should be waning. We should pray that they come back into the fold. However, they are disobedient and bombastic. And in the end, they do more to split the Church and cause dissension.
F
Filii_Dei
Guest
Can the Catholic Church not flourish despite the mocking of Protestants?
Maybe you shouldn’t worry about the mistaken views of a few. Let themselves appreciate and experience the beauty of the EF instead of letting yourself be offended by their ignorance.
P
paul11b
Guest
Well, I don’t have an FSSP parish anywhere near me but there is an SSPX affiliate chapel near me. Would it be OK to go to the SSPX affiliate chapel for daily Mass then go to my parish’s EF to fulfill my Sunday obligation. And since my parish does not offer an EF on Holy days of obligation could I go to the SSPX chapel on Holy days of obligation? I mean I really do agree with like 90% of what the SSPX has to say, I really liked Open Letter to Confused Catholics, and I believe that Archbishop Lefebvre really did do what he thought was best in his heart. However I don’t go to the SSPX chapel because I can’t bring myself to go to a place that I don’t think actually follows the Pope. I go to the NO Mass for weekday Mass and on Holy days of obligation, I wish it was TLM, I wish I had a FSSP parish near me to go to, but I don’t I just have a SSPX affiliate chapel and 1 licit TLM a week at my parish. I honestly believe that the TLM is more pleasing to God and I want to do what I can to make God happy. If I could be convinced that it was OK to go to an SSPX chapel, I would go there exclusively.
J
JReducation
Guest
My personal feeling is that there are three situations or conditions about which we must be realistic.
- There is an inclination among some people who love the EF of the mass to want to “promote it”. This was not the intent of either SP or UE. The intent was to clarify that the Extraordinary Form of the mass can be celebrated by any secular priest without permission and by any regular priest with the permission of his major superior. Neither document suggests or encourages the expansion of the use of the EF. This expansion is being promoted by some people who are attached to the EF. Whereas the documents say that it has to be made available to those who ask for it, not that those who are attached to it should proselytize to other Catholics to “convert” them over to the EF.
In law, words are used very deliberately. The term EF is very deliberate. It means that this should not become the daily bread and butter for Catholics, not even the majority. The documents are clear that the Pauline Mass is the Ordinary Form for the Latin Church.
Just as those who love the EF have a knee-jerk reaction when they hear Kumbaya, those who love the OF have a knee-jerk reaction when the Traditionalist Catholics proselytize or worse, speak about the EF of the mass as if it had something that the OF does not have.
- The second situation that exists is that the OF is not celebrated correctly in many parishes. Even if you celebrate it in the language of the people, if you follow the liturgical calendar and rubrics, it is a very beautiful mass, filled with many symbols and its austerity speaks about poverty of the cross and its origins. The truth is that all they did was borrow what monks have been using for hundreds of years and tweak it here and there. Most Catholics had never seen it before, because most Catholics never set foot in a Trappist or Carthusian monastery. To many, its starkness looks Protestant. But if you attend mass at a Trappist or Cistercian abbey, the mass will look very Lutheran. The Lutherans took it from the monasteries. We forget that Luther was a monk. He changed the theology, but kept much of the structure of the mass. Though this is not the case with most modern Lutherans.
J
JReducation
Guest
- The third situation exists with the SSPX and many Catholics. Too many people behave as if Church law were inferior to civil law. If you talk to these folks about a poor family crossing the border without a visa, they go bonkers. The first words out of their mouth is “criminal”. However, if you point to the fact that entering a diocese without the permission of the diocesan bishop is like crossing a border without a visa, the same people want to look the other way. In their mind, Canon Law does not have the same dignity and authority. It can be bent and ignored by the SSPX, because they’re the SSPX. God forbid that it be ignored by the Jesuits or Dominicans (for example).
Even exempt religious orders cannot place men in a diocese without written permission from the bishop. Once they have that, they are good to go. If the bishop dies or moves, the next bishop does not have the authority to retract the permission. Only the pope can do that.
As we can see, Canon Law has rules for entering dioceses that are just like immigration laws. Or as Paco said, there are law that require you to have proper credentials to practice your craft in different jurisdictions. I remember when I taught. Every time I moved to a different state or country, I had to reapply for a license and in some places, I had to take a test. I also had to apply to the local bishop for permission to work in his diocese. I had to comply with the civil authorities and Church authorities.
If we start to encourage one group to bend the rules, we are on a slippery slope. It’s one thing if the pope or a bishop bends the rules. The Church has the power to bind and unbind. We do not have that power, whether we’re clergy, religious or lay. Only certain people have such authority and the rules that they can bend are going to depend on their rank in the hierarchy.
These conditions must be taken into account at all times.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
P
ProVobis
Guest
With all due respect, Br JR, I’ve seen too many EF’s discontinued, probably due to underpromotion, distance to travel, time celebrated, etc. While you may be technically correct of the unintention of the SP or UE, I doubt if issuing the moto proprio had the side intent of “let them see how unwanted it is” either. Just saying.
P
paul11b
Guest
But I think that a lot of this comes from the fact that you know what you get with the EF. If you suggest a OF you don’t know what you’re getting, if a different priest says the Mass you may get a guitar, a saxophone, 12 extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, and a sermon from a guy with a cheese head on. If you suggest an EF then you know that it will be reverent and pleasing to God.
- Status