A Story of Courage: a Grandmother Who May Lose Her Home and Business for Not Serving a Gay Wedding

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mikekle said:
Sorry to say folks, but this is only the beginning…things are going to get alot worse before they get better. We are not far away from the time when being a christian will a crime.

Jesus warned us there will be a time when people are thrown in prison and tortured because of him (their faith), but we must NEVER deny our faith during this time, no matter what man throws at you, you have to remember that Gods law trumps everything,
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I think this is an overgeneralization to say the least. There are many Christians both Catholic and Protestant who do not agree with your point of view. Do you like the way that Putin is criminalizing even a mention of gay individuals? My faith would make me stand up for the least among us, so I would be persecuted for my actions as a follower of the Gospels. 🤷
 
AyJSimon said:
Such people may market themselves as “specialists,” but that doesn’t make it so. You can’t just claim it, you have to be able to support it. In court, if necessary.
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OK, what information can be used to provide evidence of specialty?

Suppose a group of homosexuals are doing a gay pride march. One of them gets into a fight, and gets a bloody nose. So this gay man walks into a podiatrist’s office, with his insurance card demanding treatment for the nose.

The podiatrist declines the appointment because that is outside of his specialty. Then gets sued for discrimination.
 
BobCatholic said:
OK, what information can be used to provide evidence of specialty?

Suppose a group of homosexuals are doing a gay pride march. One of them gets into a fight, and gets a bloody nose. So this gay man walks into a podiatrist’s office, with his insurance card demanding treatment for the nose.

The podiatrist declines the appointment because that is outside of his specialty. Then gets sued for discrimination.
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Then receives a ruling in his favor when it goes to trial, on the grounds that, #1 - he can legitimately argue that he’s doesn’t have the training to treat a bloody nose, and #2 - that he has, and would, turn down any prospective patient demanding similar treatment, regardless of their orientation. So, it fails the discrimination test, in principle.

A florist who actually tried to argue, in court, that they don’t have the training or skills to provide their services to same-sex wedding would be laughed out of court, and rightfully so. But hypothetically, what would happen if a gay couple requested the exact same flowers and arrangements for their wedding as their straight friends had received from the florist a month prior? Would providing the same flowers to the gay couple still be outside their “specialty?”
 
From Mrs. Stutzman’s letter to the A.G.

“Since 2012, same-sex couples all over the state have been free to act on their beliefs about marriage, but because I follow the Bible’s teaching that marriage is the union of one man and one woman, I am no longer free to act on my beliefs.”

I don’t think a claim of a specialty business on the part of any florist or baker will be successful. This florist will likely end up losing her business and her savings, as she can be held personally liable to judgment, because in this case, and many future cases, religious liberty comes into direct conflict with a civil law.

I expect that lawyers and lobbyists will pursue cases like this relentlessly until Christian businesses are either fully cowed or run out of business.
 
AyJSimon said:
A florist who actually tried to argue, in court, that they don’t have the training or skills to provide their services to same-sex wedding would be laughed out of court, and rightfully so.
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How would that be? We’re talking about different cultural standards, and different tastes.

Would the same flowers be provided to a Hindu wedding versus a Catholic wedding, versus a wedding from yet a different religion? Nope. Different cultural standards and different tastes.

Substitute different ethnic groups for the religions in the question. Same thing.

I could go on, but there are far more variables than you take into account by blithely dismissing my question 🙂
 
BobCatholic said:
How would that be? We’re talking about different cultural standards, and different tastes.

Would the same flowers be provided to a Hindu wedding versus a Catholic wedding, versus a wedding from yet a different religion? Nope. Different cultural standards and different tastes.

Substitute different ethnic groups for the religions in the question. Same thing.

I could go on, but there are far more variables than you take into account by blithely dismissing my question 🙂
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I didn’t blithely dismiss your question, I addressed it.

If customers ask for flowers and arrangements that you can’t provide, because you don’t have those flowers, that’s not discrimination. But claiming, before the fact, that you have a “specialty,” that precludes you from providing your services to a gay couple for their wedding, is categorically absurd. What if the gay couples only wants red roses? Is the florist actually going to pretend that this is outside of their “specialty?”
 
DaddyGirl said:
Oy vay.
Way to create an atmosphere of unneeded fear!

Jesus would have told the woman to go ahead and sell them the flowers.

But if it makes this woman feel better to lose her business because she thinks he would not, that is her free will to do so.
But since this is her choice, she should not complain about it (if indeed she is).

.
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I’m not sure why you think you know what Jesus would advise about this but perhaps you have expertise in this matter.

As far as creating an atmosphere of unneeded fear, I disagree. Our church is called “hateful” for upholding certain teachings, one of which is that sex between anyone other than a man and woman married to each other is wrong. I honestly believe that within 30 years, and likely sooner, it will be illegal to voice such an opinion. The changes of the last 30 years make that seem very likely.

I guess you think the government has the right to destroy someone’s life over what they believe. One day, maybe they will destroy yours over what you believe and then, you should not complain. What if it was illegal to provide flowers for a gay wedding and you decided to do it anyway. Would you then have no right to complain if it destroyed your business.
kozlosap said:
I think this is an overgeneralization to say the least. There are many Christians both Catholic and Protestant who do not agree with your point of view. Do you like the way that Putin is criminalizing even a mention of gay individuals? My faith would make me stand up for the least among us, so I would be persecuted for my actions as a follower of the Gospels. 🤷
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The above goes for you too.
 
Would the Church hold the supply of flowers by a florist for a gay wedding to be sinful? If not, then the florist’s refusal to supply on religious grounds appears to be unconvincing as a justification for her refusal. I can understand her reticence, but as a commercial provider of services, she faces restrictions on her freedom of choice regarding customers.
 
I find it startling that so many are so willing to trade their first amendment right to religious liberty away for nothing. Catholic adoption agencies have had to shut down over this issue, and will have to again. Private businesses will find themselves unable to follow both their consciences and the law. They will have to choose one or the other, obey God or the State.
 
Rau said:
Would the Church hold the supply of flowers by a florist for a gay wedding to be sinful? If not, then the florist’s refusal to supply on religious grounds appears to be unconvincing as a justification for her refusal. I can understand her reticence, but as a commercial provider of services, she faces restrictions on her freedom of choice regarding customers.
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Why? Why should her rights be compromised? She believes that it is against her religion. If it was me, I would probably provide the flowers but she feels differently. She should have the right to exercise her religion as she sees fit without penalty. It’s really that simple.

If she thought her rights were to stab the man to death, that would be a different matter. As it is, she doesn’t feel like she should be providing flowers for an occasion. Freedom of religion used to be a sacred right in the United States and now every other right trumps it.
 
There are stories from various countries alleging that homosexual orientated businesses have turned people away because of their gender and/or because they are not homosexual. You don’t often hear of a lawsuit involved. But businesses owned by people who do not want that business to be involved in a homosexual wedding, there is a lawsuit often heard of.
 
Th lawsuit against the Florist was for less than $8.00 and the fine from Washington State was $2000.
 
Brandall said:
And your point is?
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I can’t speak for kozlosap but my take is that if those numbers are accurate the florist isn’t likely in danger of losing her business at all and she’s just being overly dramatic for effect.
 
cycleman said:
I can’t speak for kozlosap but my take is that if those numbers are accurate the florist isn’t likely in danger of losing her business at all and she’s just being overly dramatic for effect.
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Freedom is wasted on some.
 
In the Progressive States of America it is now illegal to hold any opinion which does not follow the current trend. Slight hyperbole on my part, but this is where we are going.
Modernism may be the synthesis of all heresy, but progressivism is the vehicle modernism is riding in. As we continue to watch, this progressive, all inclusive ideology is steam rolling over morality. It has many supporters, many propagandists. We must get off the fence and take a stand.
I will not compromise my Faith for the sake of popular opinion.
I will not accept sin as normal.
I will not be browbeaten into silence.
When Catholics, and protestant and Jewish believers finally take a stand we can stop this.
And should we not take a stand, and make noise, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Holy St. Michael, defend us in our hour of battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we do humbly pray.
And do thou, oh Prince of the Heavenly Host, cast in to hell satan, and all the evil spirits who wander the world seeking the ruin of Souls. Amen
 
Brandall said:
Why? Why should her rights be compromised? She believes that it is against her religion. If it was me, I would probably provide the flowers but she feels differently. She should have the right to exercise her religion as she sees fit without penalty. It’s really that simple.

…As it is, she doesn’t feel like she should be providing flowers for an occasion. Freedom of religion used to be a sacred right in the United States and now every other right trumps it.
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The customer also has rights (under the law) not to be denied service on certain grounds.

Is it sinful to supply the flowers? Or is she permitted to define the tenets of her religion herself? Has freedom “to follow conscience” in all worldly things really always been a sacred right?
 
The government doesn’t get to define someone’s religion or what their religion requires of them. That was at issue in the Hosanna-Tabor case, wherein the government tried to define who could be a minister. The court ruled that it was not the government’s place to make that determination.

Now, in this case, the woman has not discriminated in providing services on the basis of sexual orientation. She has provided florist services to the men in question for a long time. What she objected to was providing her services for a same sex wedding–an event in which she cannot participate or accomodate according to her own religious beliefs. Up until 2012 she was free to act on her religious beliefs. But now the state says that same sex couples can act on their beliefs, but she cannot act on hers.
 
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