A Tale of Two Eucharists

[Socrates4Jesus]

BTW, I never said that Jesus or the gospel writer always explains every metaphor Jesus uses. What I did say was that whenever Jesus makes an ambiguous statement - whether literal or figurative - that leads to a question, objection, or confusion, either Jesus indicates what He meant in His response to that objection/confusion/question or the inspired author explains what He meant, as John does throughout his Gospel.

God Bless,
Michael

TY. Please point out where Jesus explains what He meant in the 6th chapter of John’s gospel.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If you continue to read on in the passage of the gospel of John, you will see that many of Jesus’ followers walked away because they couldn’t handle what he had to say. Don’t you think he would have called them back if he was speaking metaphorically? But, he let them go. Then asked those who remained if they would leave also. They responded by saying that Jesus has the words of everlasting life and where else would they go? I think that’s the response he wants from us as well.

Do you think Jesus wanted to start an insurrection against the Roman military, Tree?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Justin Martyr (AD 110-165) “And this food is called among us Eucharistia (The Eucharist) , of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise we have been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the Apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels have delivered unto us which was enjoined upon them…” (First Apology, Ch LXVI)

Irenaeus (AD 120-202) “For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptable, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Ch XVIII)

Tertullian (AD 145-220) “Our flesh eats the body and blood of Christ so that our soul is filled with God. Therefore what He joins together in His work cannot be separated in His reward”

Augustine (AD 354-430) “Receive in this bread that which was hanged on the cross; receive in this cup that which was poured from Christ’s side. For he will gain death, not life, who thinks Christ is a liar” (Ad neophytos)

“We however, take into our believing hearts and mouths the Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ with His flesh given us to eat and His blood given us to drink” (Contra aversarium legis et prophetarum, Bk 2, Ch 9)

Chrysostom (AD 347-407) “The table of the Lord takes the place of the manger, for in it lies the body of the Lord, not indeed wrapped in swaddling clothes but clothed with the Holy Spirit” (Oratio de philogonio)

(Regarding 1 Cor.10:16)…“That which is in the cup is that which flowed from His side, and that is what we participate in” “When we hold that cup in our hands we glorify God and stand amazed at the ineffable gift, namely, that He shed this very thing, and not only shed it but also distributes it to us all” (Homily 24 on First Corinthians)

Martin Luther (AD 1483-1546) “What is the Sacrament of the altar? It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine, for Christains to eat and drink, instituted by Christ Himself” (Small Catechism)

“Apply in the Sacrament what is true in the person of Christ. In order that the Godhead dwell in Him, it is not necessary that the human nature be transubstantiated and the Godhead be contained under the accidents, but since both natures are present in their entirety, it is truly said: This man is God, and, This God is man. Even though philosophy does not grasp this, faith does grasp it; and the authority of the Word of God is greater than the grasp of our intellect. Just so in the Sacrament. In order that the real body and the real blood may be in the Sacrament, it is not necessary that the bread and wine be transubstantiated and Christ be contained under their accidents; but both remain there together, and it is truly said: This bread is My body; This wine is My blood.” (Luther’s Works, St Louis ed. 19, 29f)

Thank you, Po, i’ll chew on those thoughts for awhile.

 

[jmcrae]

So, your God is a loaf of bread?

The substance of the bread was taken away into Heaven to be eaten by the Angels at their heavenly banquet, at the moment of the Consecration.

My God is God, and he has taken on the appearance of the loaf of bread, the substance of which He has perfectly displaced with Himself, body and blood, soul and divinity.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Since the Trinity is completely united in all things it is hard for me to separate them out and say the Father is only responsible for ‘striking’ the Rcok…the Son is the 'Rock" and the Holy Spirit is the “Water”…I find it impossible to make those types of clear demarcations. I think the Trinity works in unison and the Eucharist contains Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The interpretation you give is therefore awkward and uncomfortable for me to live with. Jesus is the Revealtion of the Trinity and I think His Being is the physical revelation of all members of the Trinity.

A beautiful piece of art that expresses the Trinity at banquet together is the famous one titled: The Trinity Icon (The Hospitality of Abraham) Andrej Rublev, 1422-1427 which shows the Three Angels who visited Abraham but also represents the Unity of the
Trinity, a Unity which is revealed in the banquet they share.
cenacle.co.uk/products.asp?partno=I0122

The Old Testament time period did not have a clearly articulated Doctrine on the Trinity. My visual imagination tends to link the scenes described with Moses striking the Rock to the scene at Calvary where Jesus’ Heart is pierced and the Blood and Water flow out. I believe this scene becomes real again during the mass and the mecy of God is poured out on all the world. Some will receive because they are open to hearing and receiving God;s Love and Mercy, other’s may be hard hearted. Some present at the mass will be able to participate more because they have the graces to understand and believe more. So not everyone will receive the Blessed Sacrament in total belief and some may even receive it disbelieving and in a manner which displeases God
( just like the people in the desert with Moses).
But if Jesus is the Lamb of God whose blood we place on our door posts, that happens most clearly through the Mass, which is a new,more perfect Passover meal.

I am not a Theologian or Apologist so perhaps others can express things better, but I know these things in my heart.

God Bless, Mary

I think you are on your way to becoming a Theologian, Mary! Yes, i agree that no metaphor could come close to the actual essence of God. They are merely images to help us make associations between the symbol and the actual.

In John, chapter 6, Jesus talks about the metaphor of the manna (the bread of God). What do you think He meant?

25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'c]”

32Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34"Sir," they said, “from now on give us this bread.” 35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

(John 6)

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&version=31

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

All the metaphors given teach us the about the nature of God–
and Jesus in the Eucharist is NOT bread, he takes the appearance of bread and He teaches us through the metaphorical sign that we need spiritual food as well as physical food.

He is a SUN that warms us and bring light so we can see even in the darkest night when His light is reflected in the moon (symbol of Mary). He is the SUN which is at the center of our solar system, and are lives rotate around Him as the source of all life, blessing and goodness.

He is the soft whispering sound that surrounds me in deep prayer. He surrounds us like the molecules of the air. He is the atmosphere I strive to move in. He is the atmosphere of Love…
but that all sound trite, unless you experience it even once…

He is the stream we can find when all others streams seem dry and gone. He is what makes all spiritual flowers, fields grow…
If I find myself dry it is only His way of making me more aware of how much I need Him.

And God in His great wisdom becomes a food to nourish us because He was hungry in the desert and He told the temptor: “Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from God”, and Jesus is the Living Word. The bread we see with our eyes is only the outer sign of the inner reality: The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

Every aspect of Creation can teach us about who God is…
As someone who works with art I can tell you that the Artist is reflected in the artwork…

God Bless, MaryJohnZ

I am sure many others could write much more beautiful things.

Mary, Mary, does Jesus actually take the appearance of the sun by which you see, the air that you breath, and the water your parched lips receive?

Or, are all these merely symbols of the reality that is found in the Savior who died and provides for you?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Read Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on the Eucharist and the section in the Catechism.

Sure beats the internet backyard fence!

John Paul II is dead, but if you want to tell me what you read, i’ll receive it as food for thought.

 

[blossom02]

I thought God dwelled with you or i by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

… 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

(John 14)

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the Eucharist?

No God isn,t Bread nor is the Holy Spirit bread.
He has given the gift of Himself in this way of the Eucarist.
The bread is nolonger bread.
God can do for us as He chooses and we are not to doubt Him. Although in our human nature we do and He understands to a point.
We must try as you are trying.
There comes a time when we just need to let God be God and trust and allow Him to do for us as He chooses whether we understand this mystery or not.
Not that I have concured this perfecty myself.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Maybe he is? What do you make of the fact that in the Book of Genesis, there is water, even before God begins to create?

(Not that I seriously think that God is water, nor that water is God. Still - as the man said, “Is a puzzlement, Teacher Anna.”)

JM:

Yes, i like to have fun with words myself!

However, if you had to answer seriously, besides Christ, and a crust of bread, and a sip of wine, is there anything else that the Bible writers claim is actually God?



23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

–Jesus (John 4)

 

[distracted]

"
2. Did Jesus tell us to consume the Door and the Vine?

.

Thanks… never thought of that one.

 

[jmcrae]

JM:

Yes, i like to have fun with words myself!

However, if you had to answer seriously, besides Christ, and a crust of bread, and a sip of wine, is there anything else that the Bible writers claim is actually God?



23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

–Jesus (John 4)

Man is also a spirit, but it does not preclude him having a body, nor a material form for his spirit even when his body is absent.

Which causes me to wonder what a “spirit” is, and I am forced to admit that I have absolutely no idea, really.

 

[distracted]

. Therefore, God did not and will not ever become man.

Then who is Jesus’ father?

Jesus said that He is God: “The Father and I are one”

“He who has seen me has seen the father.”

 

[distracted]

I know you are someone who has never spent time @ the Blessed Sacrament (especially Exposed). If you had, your doubts would vanish…

 

[DrPiano]

You’re up to your old tricks again Soc I remember from our previous conversations that you tend to simplify things down into equations which don’t capture what people are actually saying. I’ve noticed a couple of things here.

First the question addressed to me:

I’ll carefully read what you wrote later, when i have more time, Doc. I do appreciate the time you’ve put in to giving a thoughtful response to my questions.

I have another question: You say the Eucharist is the Divinity of Christ. God the Father is also Divine. Do you believe the Eucharist is the Father? I mean, what’s up, Doc?

No, I do not believe the Eucharist is the Father. I believe in the Trinity. While the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all ONE God, they are 3 persons. It is the Son, who was incarnated (it was not the Father who was incarnated) and who is both FULLY God and FULLY Human. The First Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451) affirmed this, culminating in the Confession of Chalcedon:

Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; “like us in all things but sin.” He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.

We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation. The distinction between natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.

It was the Son, not the Father, that became incarnate, and it is the Son, not the Father, that comes to us under the appearance of bread and wine.

As far as the question is my God a loaf of bread? No. My God comes to me under the appearance of the host (bread) and wine in the Eucharist. The host cannot in any way contain the whole of God (as God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc.) but God replaces it’s substance with the substance of Christ while attaining the appearance (or “accidents”) of the bread and the wine, including (usually) their chemical structure (I say usually because there have been miracles reported, I believe, in which the accidents were also transformed, but I’m not all that clear on the details).

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Pax]

Pax:

That is a good theory about John’s method of writing. If he were with us, i’d very much like to ask him if what you say is true. Without him being here, i do not know how i can know for certain what you say is true.

I have a theory about John’s method of writing, too. Would you be interested in hearing it?

Of course…go for it.

While we cannot ask John about his writing we can study it and notice how the gospel is put together. You can verify what I said by examining the gospel and miracles versus the placement of the parables. The structure is what it is.

 

[po18guy]

Thank you, Po, i’ll chew on those thoughts for awhile.

Chew is right! The original verb in John 6 from the Greek is to gnaw or chew. This has absolutely nothing to do with cognition. It is not spiritual, or figurative. It is physical. Like Thomas probing the wounds. It was only through the senses that he recognized the risen Lord. Are you Evangelical? Some of your material sounds like it. We are brothers in Christ with nothing to hide, so let us in on the secret so we know which philosophical direction your beliefs are coming from.

Christ’s peace.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

The concept of the real presence in the Eucharist is easy to follow with these scriptual pointers. One point I’d like to add for the converting person who is struggling with not viewing eating the Eucharist as a vampire/cannabal act: Jesus wasn’t just a person. His body was divine as well as human. That unique nature of Jesus’ flesh distinguishes it from a mere vampire/cannabalistic act.

Still a few questions have always needled me. (1) What is the actual scriptual or theological basis for a Catholic priest actually effecting the transubstantiation at the Mass? The logic is a little lose that priests are simply like Jesus, take on his role, etc. Why couldn’t any deep believer have a private Eucharistic ceremony for spiritual feeding?

(2) If non Catholics won’t believe in the Eucharist but are devout Christians otherwise, how can we say the won’t be saved?

Well, maybe you should look back here at some of the posts about Moses speaking to the rock at Massa and the water springing forth.

Actually I saw a post online by a Priest who talked about how the liturgy is a situation where the Priest is like a "dummy’ for God during the consecration. He speaks the words with love and with the misssion of being a replica of jesus at the Last supper but also with the understanding that Jesus is spiritually there speaking the words through Him at mass.

Now I would say that if a Priest doesn’t understand that or follow that or believe he is really speaking for Christ then he is failing in his individual faith but because it is a sacrament instituted by Christ for the needs of the Church, even through fallible Priests,
yhe consecration takes place. And anyone who implies that using the term ‘dummy’ in reference to the role of the Priest at the mass is not dignified needs to consider that Christ is the one the priest is representing and there really could not be anything greater to do…

Since the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge were both part of the original Garden it makes sense that the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge would both be in the Garden of Christ’s Church and people do not live by symbols and bread alone but by spiritual food and the Real presence.

MY GOD IS NOT BREAD-- HE TAKES THE FORM OF BREAD…
big difference!

God Bless, mary

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Man is also a spirit, but it does not preclude him having a body, nor a material form for his spirit even when his body is absent.

Which causes me to wonder what a “spirit” is, and I am forced to admit that I have absolutely no idea, really.

We have been discussing the concept of “soul” vs. “spirit” in our Third Order Carmelite group and the Carmelite priest gave the explaination that the ‘soul’ of a person is the life infused into the person by God and sustained by God, and the part of the soul where God dwells is the ‘Spirit’ of the person. If a person is in sin the soul and spirit spearate from each other. When a person is in the state of grace the soul and spirit are in union. Jesus had a Soul that was in perfect union with His Spirit at all times, as did Mary. Our souls were in perfect union with our spirit at the time of baptism and any stain of sin tends to lessen the union between soul and Spirit…

The Interior Castle of Teresa of Avila explained the soul as a 7 room castle, like a diamond and the inner most room or Throne room would be the room where the Spirit o God dwells. Our spiritual journey is to be drawn toward that inner room where our soul and the God within are in perfect union.

The Jewish Encyclopedia online has some good material of the Jewish conceptions of ‘soul’ which I found very interesting…
Theye believed there were three spects of the soul, and that one aspect of our soul is not physically bound to our bodies, thus allowing for a person to remain if God’s Presence spiritually even when that person is really busy with everyday activities ( through the person’s Will to always be in God’s Presence)
I believe your soul has to do with your individual personality including memories, knowledge and understanding, the way to solve problems, the way you relate to others and the world…each of us is different in those things. Jesus and Mary had perfectly balanced souls where as most of us are strong in some areas and weak in others and we need Christ to help us. The Eucharist becomes the spiritual food to sustain us and feed our souls so they can stay in union with the Spirit…

The Last Supper by Leonardo Da Vinci has the apostles divided up into 4 groups of 3 disciples which would be equal to the concept of the 4 temperments or personality types from the Middle Ages…jesus alone is perfectly balance in His tringular form. It shows me how each of us is like the storm tosssed ship without Jesus.

MAN DOES NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You are asking if the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Jesus, right? I read some of the posts, but don’t have time to go through 14 pages, so I apologize if I’m repeating. Here’s my thought if you are questioning the reality. If it isn’t really His Body, why do Satanists go to the trouble of stealing a consecrated Host? They know it’s real. If it is, we need it for eternal life.

Your words remind me of the story of when the patriarch Jacob fled from his father in law with his wives. One of his wives took the statues of her father’s gods when she left. When he tracked Jacob down he demanded to know why he stole his gods. I found it comical that pagans would believe in gods that others could take from them.

I’m also reminded of what Jesus said:

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.”

(Matthew 6:19-20)

I’m in disbelief, sphilomena, that you believe your God is actually a loaf of bread that a thief can break in and steal.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The substance of the bread was taken away into Heaven to be eaten by the Angels at their heavenly banquet, at the moment of the Consecration.

My God is God, and he has taken on the appearance of the loaf of bread, the substance of which He has perfectly displaced with Himself, body and blood, soul and divinity.

JM:

Are you saying that the Eucharist bread is not really bread at all, but only appears as such, and is actually slices of human flesh? Would you say that if the Eucharist was subjected to DNA testing after it was blessed and before it was eaten, would it have the nucleotides of a human being or of wheat?