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J
jmcrae
Guest
The substance of me is the bit that says “Me.” Right now, it’s residing in the union of my body and soul. After my death, it will reside in my soul alone. After the Resurrection, it will return to the union of my body and soul.Then, JM, is the one primary substance of a human being material (that is, made of atoms) or immaterial (that is, not made of atoms)?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Is the substance of me material, or immaterial, or both?
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jmcrae
Guest
I don’t think it’s material, as such, but it’s not really spiritual, either.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Would you say that everything that is not physical is non-physical?
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jmcrae
Guest
I have no idea. I am not a philosopher. “Substance” is a philosophical concept that has real existence, though not material existence, and is a property of things that do not have spiritual properties, as well as of things that have spiritual properties.
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distracted
Guest
I knew you wouldn’t accept my “evidence”…
and i know you don’t spend much, if any time, at the Sacrament.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I have to disagree with you, there, JM. A philosopher is a lover of wisdom, and wisdom is knowing the difference between what is false and what is true. So, i see a lot of philosopher in you!I have no idea. I am not a philosopher. “Substance” is a philosophical concept that has real existence, though not material existence, and is a property of things that do not have spiritual properties, as well as of things that have spiritual properties.
I also know that i have the same effect on people that Socrates often had, for he said of himself:… the world in general have not found me out, and therefore they only say of me that I am the strangest of mortals and drive men to their wit’s end. *(Theaetetus, 149)*In driving you to your wit’s end, i hope i will become the better for it (for what i learn from you) and hope you might benefit, too.
With that as my goal, i think we should consider what you said, and see what wisdom tells us. First, you said:
“Substance” is a philosophical concept that has real existence, though not material existenceIt would seem to me that that which has no material existence cannot be material. The opposite would also be true, that that which has material existence cannot be immaterial. For, that which is immaterial is not material, and that which is material is not immaterial.
That is, opposites can never be the same.
- light can never be darkness
- darkness can never be light
- white can never be black
- black can never be white
- latter can never be former
- former can never be latter
- matter can never be spirit
- spirit can never be mater
To say material matter and immaterial soul are the same thing is to say that opposites are the same, which is a logical contradiction. I know that logical contradictions are never true. I believe, that once you think about it, you will know, too.
Regarding the second statement you made:
… and [substance] is a property of things that do not have spiritual properties, as well as of things that have spiritual properties. it is important to understand that substance is not a property, but substance is the thing that has properties. These properties, Aristotle wrote, are the accidents of substances.
Primary Substance is what a thing or living being is. It is what is essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if this substance is removed or altered the thing or living being ceases to be what it is, and becomes something or someone else.Accidents are the qualities or properties of a thing or living being that is. They are what is not essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if any of these accidents are removed or altered, the thing or living being still remains what it is.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
How will you or i know i will not accept your evidence until you present it to me? Please tell me, Distracted, why you believe.
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jmcrae
Guest
It’s very kind of you to think so.I have to disagree with you, there, JM. A philosopher is a lover of wisdom, and wisdom is knowing the difference between what is false and what is true. So, i see a lot of philosopher in you!
The reasons for the manner of his death become increasingly clearer …I also know that i have the same effect on people that Socrates often had, for he said of himself:… the world in general have not found me out, and therefore they only say of me that I am the strangest of mortals and drive men to their wit’s end. *(Theaetetus, 149)*In driving you to your wit’s end, i hope i will become the better for it (for what i learn from you) and hope you might benefit, too.
What we need to discover now is whether spirituality is the opposite of materiality, and even if they are opposites, can they co-exist? I think that they can co-exist in a way that, for example, light and dark cannot co-exist.
Material existence and spiritual existence can and usually do occur at the same time, to the same person; therefore I don’t think it can be accurate to say that material existence and spiritual existence are opposites. I think that they are complements; not opposites.
Good points.
I still don’t know the answer, though.
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distracted
Guest
i started spending long periods of time at the Blessed Sacrament, Exposed & otherwise…How will you or i know i will not accept your evidence until you present it to me? Please tell me, Distracted, why you believe.
Jesus is THERE!!
What more can i say??
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distracted
Guest
Just posted… but not sure i answered your question fully… I thought i did… but i am not you, so maybe you don’t agree…How will you or i know i will not accept your evidence until you present it to me? Please tell me, Distracted, why you believe.
Many things happen to me when i am with Jesus. It is hard to put it into words… and waht he does with me, he may not do with you… except that he purifies everyone… if we let him…
I like to go There and just be with Him in silence, thinking “nothing”, saying nothing…
Words are so inadequate…
It isn’t all a “walk in the park” either… being purged is painful…
uch: :hypno: :whacky:… What is your spiritual history? I mean, how were you raised? What do you know about Catholicism??
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davidv
Guest
Both.Then, David, is the one primary substance of a human being material (that is, made of atoms) or immaterial (that is, not made of atoms)?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Neither do i know the answers! I’m simply trying them one, one at a time, to see if any of them fits the truth, as i best as the truth fits me.… What we need to discover now is whether spirituality is the opposite of materiality, and even if they are opposites, can they co-exist? I think that they can co-exist in a way that, for example, light and dark cannot co-exist.
Material existence and spiritual existence can and usually do occur at the same time, to the same person; therefore I don’t think it can be accurate to say that material existence and spiritual existence are opposites. I think that they are complements; not opposites.
Good points.
I still don’t know the answer, though.
I like your idea of two things being a composite. Even with two material things, putting them together does not always make them one. Water and oil are an example–try as you might to make them one, they remain two separate material substances. So, it seems to me that you are correct in saying that the soul of a person and the body of a person can coexist together. Perhaps they coexist as two substances in one person?
To use a crude analogy, your soul to your body is like a driver to a car. A car can do a lot without a driver. The engine can continue to run, the lights can turn on when it gets dark, the car alarm can go off when a cat jumps on its hood. However, cars cannot make decisions, like driving themselves to the Starbucks drive thru window to pick up a couple of espressos to bring home to you. If you want Starbucks, you have to get in the car and drive.
Your body is like that. Without you being conscious of it, your heart beats faster when a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, your eyes dilate as they stare into the headlights of the oncoming collision. However, your soul is that which makes the decision to turn the steering and slam on the breaks to avert a life-threatening accident.
Should the body perish in the crash, the soul leaves it as the sole survivor, just as a man might leave a car. In both examples, the two are not the same; yet they work together as a team.
Yes, JM, i think you are onto something true, here!
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davidv
Guest
So once again we are drawn to the Aristotelian and Thomistic distintions between essence (substance) and accident (attribute). In this distinction, what you have called material existance in a accident. So, what you have declared opposites are really not opposites. The human therefore has both material (phyical) as well as immaterial accidents (spiritual) and exist in parallel, not in opposition.
Except as shown above they are not really opposites, therefore there is no contradiction.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Is your Lord and mine there in His physical body, His non-physical soul and Spirit, or both?
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davidv
Guest
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jmcrae
Guest
I think we’re getting closer.Neither do i know the answers! I’m simply trying them one, one at a time, to see if any of them fits the truth, as i best as the truth fits me.
I like your idea of two things being a composite. Even with two material things, putting them together does not always make them one. Water and oil are an example–try as you might to make them one, they remain two separate material substances. So, it seems to me that you are correct in saying that the soul of a person and the body of a person can coexist together. Perhaps they coexist as two substances in one person?
To use a crude analogy, your soul to your body is like a driver to a car. A car can do a lot without a driver. The engine can continue to run, the lights can turn on when it gets dark, the car alarm can go off when a cat jumps on its hood. However, cars cannot make decisions, like driving themselves to the Starbucks drive thru window to pick up a couple of espressos to bring home to you. If you want Starbucks, you have to get in the car and drive.
Your body is like that. Without you being conscious of it, your heart beats faster when a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, your eyes dilate as they stare into the headlights of the oncoming collision. However, your soul is that which makes the decision to turn the steering and slam on the breaks to avert a life-threatening accident.
Should the body perish in the crash, the soul leaves it as the sole survivor, just as a man might leave a car. In both examples, the two are not the same; yet they work together as a team.
Yes, JM, i think you are onto something true, here!
I don’t completely agree with the car analogy (although it kind of works), since it is the presence of my soul within my body that causes my autonomic functions to - uh - function.
If my soul were to leave my body, these functions - breathing, blood circulation, blinking, sweating, instinctive responses, etc., would cease to occur. Not so with the car - the car still responds to things like cats jumping on it, even if the driver is absent. Also, the car can be driven by anyone who has a driver’s license, whereas my body can only be “driven” by my soul; nobody else’s. My body and my soul were designed uniquely for each other, and no other will do.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
It’s getting late, David. Let me sleep on that one and get back to you. Hope to think this through with you soon!
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davidv
Guest
jmcrae used the word “complement” not composite, which leads to error that the the body and soul are just an intermingling of one within the other. The Church, a long time ago, declared this to be a heresy. A better, but probably inadequate, analogy would be when one mixes molten copper and zinc. What results is an alloy in which the copper and zinc are no longer distinguishable from each other.
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