J
JamalChristophr
Guest
Would you mind providing your references / sources for this statement?
Last edited:
A thought experiment: there were no Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?
- Status
S
semper_catholicus
Guest
The Latin Mass is still being said.
L
Loud-living-dogma
Guest
In the words of Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich:
- “I wish the time were here when the Pope dressed in red will. reign. I see the Apostles, not those of the past, but the apostles of the last. times, and it seems to me, the Pope is among them I was likewise told if I remember right that he (Satan) will be unchained for a time fifty or sixty years before the year of Christ 2000”
Last edited:
L
Loud-living-dogma
Guest
Fr. Anibale Bugnini headed a commission that included protestants set up by paul VI with the purpose to implement the Councils teaching on the liturgy. Fr. Bugnini stated that one of his intentions in designing the Novus Ordo was “to strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=385703&language=en
Last edited:
O
otjm
Guest
The EF was not “thrown away” to small communities. When less than 3% of the parishes in the US have any form of the EF, and a significant number of them only having it on a weekday, or less than weekly, the reality comes to the surface - the vast majority of people prefer the OF. And I have spoken in the past with people a generation and 2 generations older than me, and to a person, when asked if they liked the changes to the Mass, to a person they said “Oh yes!” and followed that with their joy to have the Mass in English. few remarked about the direction the priest faced, with more liking ad populum than not, and none ever discussed changes to the rubrics. And they were all people who had been born to farm families, and most were still connected to farms - none of them city people.
C
CilladeRoma
Guest
I am still waiting for someone, anyone, to give me an actual citation for this quote. I have seen it thrown around many times, but have never seen anything that actually confirms that this is, indeed, a direct quote.
Since you are the latest to throw it out there @(name removed by moderator), would you care to share your source?
Since you are the latest to throw it out there @(name removed by moderator), would you care to share your source?
A
angel12
Guest
That would be a good thread!
C
CilladeRoma
Guest
@(name removed by moderator) posted this also.
I do not consider this a “source”. It is more hearsay, as it is a quote from someone who said that is was Bugnini said.
Please offer a source that directly links this statement to the mouth of Bugnini.
I do not consider this a “source”. It is more hearsay, as it is a quote from someone who said that is was Bugnini said.
Please offer a source that directly links this statement to the mouth of Bugnini.
O
otjm
Guest
Well, if one is to follow Bishop Barron’s thoughts on evangelism, and his comments about moving to a Christocentric understanding of the faith, and his commentary that our youth are more than capable of of digesting catechesis which is challenging instead of "pablum like’ (my description of youth catechesis), we would likely have more than a 15% to 18% participation in the faith by those in the 18 to 29 age group.
Do I think we would have as many attending Mass as, say, in the mid 1950’s? No; secularism and all its manifestations are a tremendous siren song to youth. But we would be doing better. I look at what are called the “John Paul 2” priests; I look at the young adults who have attended Catholic colleges and universities and have managed to avoid the craziness in some of them, and they are not asking “How late can I come to Mass and how early can I leave” type questions. They are asking “How do I follow Christ better and more completely”.
Do I think we would have as many attending Mass as, say, in the mid 1950’s? No; secularism and all its manifestations are a tremendous siren song to youth. But we would be doing better. I look at what are called the “John Paul 2” priests; I look at the young adults who have attended Catholic colleges and universities and have managed to avoid the craziness in some of them, and they are not asking “How late can I come to Mass and how early can I leave” type questions. They are asking “How do I follow Christ better and more completely”.
L
Loud-living-dogma
Guest
Here is a long explanation. It appears that the quote is somewhat inaccurate:
“…We have seen the aforementioned attributed words cited throughout the years by many well-respected authors, particularly those who use the preceding words as proof that the New Order of Mass was designed to suit ecumenical goals with the Protestants. Moreover, it has been used to articulate how the liturgical reformers of the 1960’s sought to “Protestantize” the way in which Catholics pray. However, it must be said, for the record that these are not the exact words of Annibale Bugnini in the March 19, 1965 edition of L’Osservatore Romano. What follows are the actual words (in which the reader will certainly still see the clear ecumenical goals aimed for in the liturgical reform of the liturgical prayers on Good Friday) from the article written by Bugnini titled Le “Variationes” ad Alcuni Testi della Settimana Santa (The “Variations” of Some Texts of Holy Week):…”
“…We have seen the aforementioned attributed words cited throughout the years by many well-respected authors, particularly those who use the preceding words as proof that the New Order of Mass was designed to suit ecumenical goals with the Protestants. Moreover, it has been used to articulate how the liturgical reformers of the 1960’s sought to “Protestantize” the way in which Catholics pray. However, it must be said, for the record that these are not the exact words of Annibale Bugnini in the March 19, 1965 edition of L’Osservatore Romano. What follows are the actual words (in which the reader will certainly still see the clear ecumenical goals aimed for in the liturgical reform of the liturgical prayers on Good Friday) from the article written by Bugnini titled Le “Variationes” ad Alcuni Testi della Settimana Santa (The “Variations” of Some Texts of Holy Week):…”
J
JamalChristophr
Guest
(Ahhh, I’m not going to engage on this thread, other than to make this one clarification. Continual attempts to undermine the credibility of the Novus Ordo are un-Catholic and very disappointing.)
However, it must be said, for the record that these are not the exact words of Annibale Bugnini in the March 19, 1965 edition of L’Osservatore Romano. What follows are the actual words (in which the reader will certainly still see the clear ecumenical goals aimed for in the liturgical reform of the liturgical prayers on Good Friday) from the article written by Bugnini titled Le “Variationes” ad Alcuni Testi della Settimana Santa (The “Variations” of Some Texts of Holy Week):
Please see the first post in this old CAF thread. It is a copy of an article titled, “For the Record and From the Source - What Bugnini Really Said”
What Archbishop Bugnini Really Said - The Article that Proves It Traditional Catholicism
However, it must be said, for the record that these are not the exact words of Annibale Bugnini in the March 19, 1965 edition of L’Osservatore Romano. What follows are the actual words (in which the reader will certainly still see the clear ecumenical goals aimed for in the liturgical reform of the liturgical prayers on Good Friday) from the article written by Bugnini titled Le “Variationes” ad Alcuni Testi della Settimana Santa (The “Variations” of Some Texts of Holy Week):
Please see the first post in this old CAF thread. It is a copy of an article titled, “For the Record and From the Source - What Bugnini Really Said”
A
angel12
Guest
Thank you for providing accuracy.
O
otjm
Guest
I think you missed my point. My feelings are the exact opposite.
Your comment about marginalization, to me, is that we have been marginalized by those Catholic politiicans who cannot bring a Christ-centered perspective to any number of political issues, and I would point only to the most prominent - abortion. How many say they are “personally opposed”…
And I see Kennedy as the most public of the beginners of that downhill slope. Kennedy was born in 1917, the same year as my mother, so thoroughly brought up in the pre-Vatican 2 era. And all too many pre-Vatican 2 Catholics saw faith as defined by rules and regulations.
Your comment about marginalization, to me, is that we have been marginalized by those Catholic politiicans who cannot bring a Christ-centered perspective to any number of political issues, and I would point only to the most prominent - abortion. How many say they are “personally opposed”…
And I see Kennedy as the most public of the beginners of that downhill slope. Kennedy was born in 1917, the same year as my mother, so thoroughly brought up in the pre-Vatican 2 era. And all too many pre-Vatican 2 Catholics saw faith as defined by rules and regulations.
C
Crusader30
Guest
I find it Ironic how one small article can convince people that Archbishop Bugnini was suddenly misquoted after all these years lol.
P
PaulfromIowa
Guest
The English speaking world is a very small part of the Catholic Church. We really do not set the Catholic agenda, either in the past or in 2018. The US is the world’s leading economic and military power, US Protestants lead and fund the world’s Protestants. But the US does not lead the Catholic Church.
P
PetraG
Guest
I would not rush to assume that changing nothing would be an effect as easy to predict as some people believe.
The Orthodox, for instance, did not have a parallel liturgical change, yet 54% of self-identified Orthodox in the United States said that same-sex marriage ought to be legal, roughly the same as the population as a whole. The Orthodox in the U.S. have a higher rate of interfaith marriage than Roman Catholics.
C.S. Lewis had it right when he put these words into the mouth of his Narnia Christ-figure character, Aslan:
“To know what would have happened, child?” said Aslan. “No. Nobody is ever told that.”
The Orthodox, for instance, did not have a parallel liturgical change, yet 54% of self-identified Orthodox in the United States said that same-sex marriage ought to be legal, roughly the same as the population as a whole. The Orthodox in the U.S. have a higher rate of interfaith marriage than Roman Catholics.
C.S. Lewis had it right when he put these words into the mouth of his Narnia Christ-figure character, Aslan:
“To know what would have happened, child?” said Aslan. “No. Nobody is ever told that.”
Last edited:
A
Augustinian
Guest
That, I would expect. There are a lot more Catholics in the US than Orthodox, providing more of an opportunity to find a spouse of the same faith
O
otjm
Guest
However, the 1917 Code of Canon law had the fast from midnight until reception. But the literal fast was from whenever someone last ate, prior to midnight, until Communion. That did not change until 1957, when fasting was for three hours (backward) from the reception of Communion. And that in large part had to do with who received and who did not; if one was going to the 9 a.m. Mass and had a family of young children it was logistically near impossible to get all fed by 6:30 a.m. And if the evening meal was over by 7 p.m. the night before, that meant a fast 14 and a half hours, more than some people could deal with.
And as a young child, I remember comments being made about frequency of reception by people who were 2 generations older than me, and there were still lingering aspects of Jansenism.
Both of these had a strong influence on how often and when one received.
And as a young child, I remember comments being made about frequency of reception by people who were 2 generations older than me, and there were still lingering aspects of Jansenism.
Both of these had a strong influence on how often and when one received.
P
PetraG
Guest
When people presume that a smaller church would be all members who are more ardently attached to the Church, I think they presume too much. People stay in the church of their birth for many reasons, some of which are more sociological than being driven by theological conviction.
L
Loud-living-dogma
Guest
I would love to see the actual newspaper, but then, I can’t speak Italian so I would still be relying on someone’s translation.
Last edited:
- Status